Intuition vs Logical/Theory ??

[joe2758]

Maybe you could teach us what a real jazz artist should sound like. Maybe we could refer to some of your playing to learn real jazz artistry:

youtube.com/@pawlowski6132

Could you pick one video out of the 25 videos you have playing acoustic guitar alone, use that as teaching material, and demonstrate said artistry? You seem to know a lot that we don't know about. Perhaps you could lift some of us to your level so that the next time we talk about stuff and/or post stuff, we'll do better, and you'll be less triggered or angry.

His playing isn't bad imo. Does talk out his a$$ tho. bit of a walley maybe, bit of a muppet (all in good fun)

[brent.h]

Lol let's make 'muppet' a thing again

i like that word

[joe2758]

Lol let's make 'muppet' a thing again

i like that word

right?!

[mr. beaumont]

Takes a lot of thinking to get to the point of where you don't have to think

[pamosmusic]

Takes a lot of thinking to get to the point of where you don't have to think

amen again brother

[brent.h]

right?!

I like the word 'feck' too. It's the milder version of the F bomb.

Takes a lot of thinking to get to the point of where you don't have to think

Ya. Rehearsal in the short term memory, then encoding in the long term.

[joe2758]

I like the word 'feck' too. It's the milder version of the F bomb.
.

Amen brother

[Basshead]

The conclusion is.... does not matter, just shit up and go practice LOL

I always thought some famous classic players had a natural talent or whatever I dont, maybe Wes, Baker, Getz...have it, but I watched a million interviews from musicians, jazz or rock, session guys, etc... and most of them tell you the same thing, after some basic point does not matter, you either practice new material and get serious about some genre, focus on your time feel, improve your ears singing and stuff... or you just get stuck in the same place or worse for ever, kinda what PM said in that interview with RB.

I can go rant for ever about this cause some people just dont get it but the complicated thing here in this digital age is actually to just focus on something, for instance, if you play Stella for 2 hours a day for six months, learning some new stuff about that tune from all the greats and then you go to a concert hall and play Stella for five minutes and you do a decent version, in compare with the masters, if you tell someone that you practice the tune a lot to take it to that level like a classical guys might spend 8 hours a day on a piece before going to a massive hall in London or Russia and play in front of all the other classical guys who know those tunes forever... if someone thinks, oh you must be really bad if you need to practice a lot, I just got talent and intuition...come on man, grow up, that makes no sense or even worse, thinking like, if I practice that much Id do it too, ok cool call me when you are on that concert hall stage in front of thousand people and then show me your awesome Stella or whatever version, its all BS, if you think Oscar Peterson or Paco de lucia did not practice at all, is all ear, natural, intuition...just piss me off, bad excuses from frustrated rotten mediocre musicians IMO.

[Christian Miller]

I think 'some people' would generally be people with no experience of learning an instrument. None of this is natural to anyone. Some people seem faster at learning, sure, but they still have to work at it.

OTOH what people with no experience of performing might no realise is that it take a great deal of the right sort of practice to get things internalised well enough to play in front of people. That also includes improvised music. I have learned this slowly, and the hard way.

[wolflen]

I think 'some people' would generally be people with no experience of learning an instrument. None of this is natural to anyone. Some people seem faster at learning, sure, but they still have to work at it.

OTOH what people with no experience of performing might no realise is that it take a great deal of the right sort of practice to get things internalised well enough to play in front of people. That also includes improvised music. I have learned this slowly, and the hard way.

This is one of the human mysteries..some can and do play and perform at high levels with little practice.

Countless examples of players hearing a tune just once and are able to navigate it near perfection.

And of course the endless accounts of students of all subjects..advanced math/science etc. that "never cracked a book" and reach top honors.

Genetics?? Perhaps..but it is part of the human genetic/neuron wiring in some beings.

and then of course is the phenom--the child prodigy (

I think all the above is encoded in various degrees in all of us, Some have easy access to it and some need to work hard to unlock it.

Some can access all of it with ease and some can only reach part of it with alot of work.

And the many examples of "combinations" two or more work together-each member may only be fairly talented but together they go beyond their individual limits.

For those with extreme abundance..I envy not..For those with less..I hope for more.

[djg]

„A beaver don't have to go to engineering school to know how to build a dam.“ (erroll garner)

[DawgBone]

The conclusion is.... does not matter, just shit up and go practice LOL

I always thought some famous classic players had a natural talent or whatever I dont, maybe Wes, Baker, Getz...have it, but I watched a million interviews from musicians, jazz or rock, session guys, etc... and most of them tell you the same thing, after some basic point does not matter, you either practice new material and get serious about some genre, focus on your time feel, improve your ears singing and stuff... or you just get stuck in the same place or worse for ever, kinda what PM said in that interview with RB.

I can go rant for ever about this cause some people just dont get it but the complicated thing here in this digital age is actually to just focus on something, for instance, if you play Stella for 2 hours a day for six months, learning some new stuff about that tune from all the greats and then you go to a concert hall and play Stella for five minutes and you do a decent version, in compare with the masters, if you tell someone that you practice the tune a lot to take it to that level like a classical guys might spend 8 hours a day on a piece before going to a massive hall in London or Russia and play in front of all the other classical guys who know those tunes forever... if someone thinks, oh you must be really bad if you need to practice a lot, I just got talent and intuition...come on man, grow up, that makes no sense or even worse, thinking like, if I practice that much Id do it too, ok cool call me when you are on that concert hall stage in front of thousand people and then show me your awesome Stella or whatever version, its all BS, if you think Oscar Peterson or Paco de lucia did not practice at all, is all ear, natural, intuition...just piss me off, bad excuses from frustrated rotten mediocre musicians IMO.

Then there are those with a lot of natural talent who just have zero drive or interest in live performance. I've known a couple of them. Great chops, sure they practiced, but they had perfect pitch....and no desire to pursue it as a career or in anything but beyond a "I need to pass this course" way. Seems like some of the guys who are born with, or quickly acquire, perfect pitch have other intellectual or life interests beyond music. Most people lack the one-track mind necessary for a great career in music, especially in the digital age.

[Christian Miller]

This is one of the human mysteries..some can and do play and perform at high levels with little practice.

Name a jazz guitarist who fits into that category.

[DawgBone]

Name a jazz guitarist who fits into that category.

It's the old "Buddy Rich never practiced" bullshit. Dude was an advanced tap dancer and probably did 20-30,000 gigs in his life. "Never practiced", maybe not in the sit in a room by yourself way but everyone who is accomplished has paid a ton of dues.

[AllanAllen]

„A beaver don't have to go to engineering school to know how to build a dam.“ (erroll garner)

I mean, a beaver dam is just a pile of trash... so yeah, anyone can pick up a guitar, play some trash and call it experimental art. That doesn't make it the same as the hoover dam.

[pauln]

Wiki says about intuition...

• Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without recourse to conscious reasoning or needing an explanation
• Ability to automatically generate solutions without long logical arguments or evidence
• Highly intuitive subjects made decisions quickly but could not identify their rationale; level of accuracy, however, did not differ from that of non-intuitive subjects
• Intuition's automatic nature tends to precede more thoughtful logic
• Inner insight to unconscious pattern-recognition
• Acts not on the basis of rational judgment but on sheer intensity of perception

I especially like that last one about intensity of perception!!

One thing that seems unclear is the degree to which intuition is nonverbal. In the case of my personal musical intuition, it is absolutely nonverbal.

I guess another disclarity is to what degree rational logical reasoning is nonverbal. It feels to me that the majority of my reasoning is nonverbal, but once expressed verbally, appears to be so.

This also suggests a possible interesting asymmetry...?

- that what begins as logical reasoning may become the unconscious pattern-recognition underlying intuition
- that what begins as intuition might never be transcribed from the unconscious into conscious logical reasoning!!?

[djg]

I mean, a beaver dam is just a pile of trash... so yeah, anyone can pick up a guitar, play some trash and call it experimental art. That doesn't make it the same as the hoover dam.

erroll garner was one of the most intuitive jazz musicians. there is a quality in his playing that that is hard to reverse-engineer. unlike bill evans for example.

[deacon Mark]

Intuition is a great human condition. It cannot exist in AI and while it may be somewhat explainable, it still is not explainable entirely. To me in effect intuition is completely a human trait that separates us from machines. Animals of other kinds I think can have this too but we humans have the ability to process it at much higher level than anything in existence.

I don't what it means directly related to the post except music can be very intuitive and organized in the mind of the musician, but not like others. Could explain why some players simply do things and do not read music or understand the usual theory. They know it but not in a way that can be feed to us regulars.

You know intuition is like love you cannot explain that too well either. Points to something but I cease.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=deacon Mark;1438717

You know intuition is like love you cannot explain that too well either..[/QUOTE]

Jimi:

Is this love or confusion?

[Basshead]

How can someone improve musical intuition? is all about ear training I guess?

Are videos like this one into logical category I guess? Is that bad?

[DawgBone]

erroll garner was one of the most intuitive jazz musicians. there is a quality in his playing that that is hard to reverse-engineer. unlike bill evans for example.

Dude sat around playing a piano most of his life starting at age 3. At 5'2" I think his future as a linebacker or ditch digger was probably pretty limited.

[Christian Miller]

How can someone improve musical intuition? is all about ear training I guess?

Ear training is the ability to take things that you hear and work out what they are in terms of written notes, notes on your instrument etc. It's a technical skill.

The ability to hear music in your head.. well most people would consider that more intuitive I guess. The best way of working on that I've found is to listen to music - actively, closely with the kind of attention that you would use when "transcribing" it. The more music is in your ears, the better.

OTOH bandstand skills - best cultivated through experience.

Experiential learning is really terribly important in music. Here we talk a lot about notes, and there's a focus on technical material generally, but if you listen to music close enough to learn it by ear you absorb nuances about it without even realising you'd never get from a score or theory book. On an intuitive level. OTOH, you learn things by just watching experienced musicians at work you might not realise. Or of course, by playing with them.

But here's something people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around - when learning an instrument technical seeming things can become intuitive given enough practice. In fact if those technical things don't become completely intuitive, they will not be there for you in the heat of the moment. People seem to have trouble with this concept for some reason, especially around things like rhythm. But it's absolutely something that musicians do.

The most obvious thing for musicians is the motor memory and so on required to operate your instrument. Might be easier if you are learning as a small child, kids are like sponges, but we can still learn these things as adults.

[pauln]

Ear training is the ability to take things that you hear and work out what they are in terms of written notes, notes on your instrument etc. It's a technical skill.

Not the same as transcribing or playing by ear, where the objects aren't the note names but their corresponding pitches (and recognition of chord types without naming them, either).

The ability to hear music in your head.. well most people would consider that more intuitive I guess. The best way of working on that I've found is to listen to music - actively, closely with the kind of attention that you would use when "transcribing" it. The more music is in your ears, the better.

Best way is to have always listened to music carefully one's whole life, especially before ever having taken up an instrument. Engaging in "ear training" later in life as a thing may never get you there.

OTOH bandstand skills - best cultivated through experience.

Experiential learning is really terribly important in music. Here we talk a lot about notes, and there's a focus on technical material generally, but if you listen to music close enough to learn it by ear you absorb nuances about it without even realising you'd never get from a score or theory book. On an intuitive level. OTOH, you learn things by just watching experienced musicians at work you might not realise. Or of course, by playing with them.

Yes, music is inherently potentially self revealing, but it's nature is intuitive.

But here's something people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around - when learning an instrument technical seeming things can become intuitive given enough practice. In fact if those technical things don't become completely intuitive, they will not be there for you in the heat of the moment. People seem to have trouble with this concept for some reason, especially around things like rhythm. But it's absolutely something that musicians do.

That's part of the asymmetry, ideally all roads lead to intuition
- intuition
- technical -> intuition
- technical -> still technical, no intuition

The most obvious thing for musicians is the motor memory and so on required to operate your instrument. Might be easier if you are learning as a small child, kids are like sponges, but we can still learn these things as adults.

Motor memory, muscle memory... we musicians should call it something like "muscle melody".

[Basshead]

So lets say I want to develop my musical intuition like Wes did, I cant imagine Wes singing intervals or triads, maybe he did, those guys did not have all the info and ear training programs we got these days so what do you think they did to get that level of musicality? or is all about talent and I just better quit.

[paulkogut]

Years ago I'm walking around downtown Chicago with bassist Kelly Sill, getting some air between sets. He points to a building and says "That used to be a hotel. The first time I played with Chet Baker, he calls me up to his room to talk through the set. I get there and he's in bed naked with two prostitutes...."

Most people assume that the 'meat' of that story was the hookers, but it's really that the 'completely by ear" Chet Baker could at least communicate things like "I like the 2 bars of B7 on How Deep Is The Ocean" ...

PK