Is Jazz Really Disappearing? How the Scene is Dying? Guitar Discussion

[kris]

I dunno seems like there’s more jazz players than ever before to me.


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Come on... there are more and more jazz musicians and jazz clubs are disappearing,
There are more and more jazz musicians because there is easier access to jazz education via the Internet.
Also, access to concerts and albums is very large and often free.
It is also easy to buy a guitar that meets the requirements of the musician.
I have a lot of experience in this regard – I think so.

[Mick-7]

Women: A stylish blouse with jeans or a midi skirt, paired with ankle boots or flats.

Midi skirts have been known to have latency problems. How did they solve that?

Maybe with the flats?

Men: Loafers or polished boots add a sophisticated touch.

The AI Bot thinks loafers will make a guy look sophisticated?

By the way, it was answering it's own question, i.e., "What is the dress code for jazz music?"

I just inquired about jazz musicians and employment, it brought up "dress code," I guess because it's partial to code.

[Christian Miller]

Come on... there are more and more jazz musicians and jazz clubs are disappearing,
There are more and more jazz musicians because there is easier access to jazz education via the Internet.
Also, access to concerts and albums is very large and often free.
It is also easy to buy a guitar that meets the requirements of the musician.
I have a lot of experience in this regard – I think so.

Yeah I'd probably broadly agree that the bit of the jazz industry that has shown consistent growth over the past 50 years or so is the education sector at the expense of almost everything else. OTOH rents increase more and more in cities, meaning it is harder to run clubs and bars and so on.

However, I'd also say that the London jazz scene seems to be doing as well as I've ever seen it, and from a playing stand point is better. More and more world class young musicians, and I think we've found our confidence with the success of so many UK jazz artists internationally. But it's not just the groove stuff - there is an increasingly dedicated straight ahead jazz scene for instance, which we didn't have 20 years ago. I'm pretty bullish about the state of the jazz scene now, it's a great place to be.

I think a lot of this is downstream of the funding that organisations like Tomorrow's Warriors have received. There's a lot of jazz education at schools. There's workshops for primary school kids at my daughter's school for instance. It's no perfect, there's issues here around London-centric aspects of funding and socioeconomic class divides. But there's plenty of absolute virtuosi.

Venues have shut here, and there have been the usual trends - property developers and so on. That is a huge issue. The Junction - a great little venue - closing down was a minor news story because of these general issues. Very shady stuff. But some of them - honestly - it was kind of crazy they stayed operating for so long, the mismanagement was so obvious. And you do see other venues and nights open up elsewhere. It's a tough business. I'm grateful people do it, including musicians.

OTOH young people in general don't regard jazz with the same disdain as they did when I was growing up.

So that's my local, highly subjective view. It'll be different everywhere.

But jazz musicians love to moan, and I've long since stopped taking it seriously. Usually it's because they're going through a dry patch for whatever reason. I went to Japan a few years back and was struck by how mainstream jazz is there. Every cafe was playing some genuine creative piano trio music, or bop and it was all local artists killing it. when I went to a Tokyo jazz club and got chatting with one of the players about the scene, he moaned that no-one liked jazz. That did it for me. Jazz musicians moan everywhere. I bet they moaned about the same thing in 1950s New York.

Speaking of which - Japanese jazz is something of a meme out there among the millennials and Gen Z's - take Ryo Fukui's massive popularity among people who have never listened to US jazz much. I was surprised when I finally listened to him and it was fairly typical piano trio standards. But they LOVE it, and that's their entry point.

It's a funny world. Very fragmented.

Classical music in the UK on the other hand - that IS dying. It just doesn't have any advocates for it much from either the political right or left. Which is funny and sad, because internationally, it's booming. It's huge in India for example. And China, of course. I notice that teaching in areas with many West African and South Asian families that all the parents want their kids to learn Western classical instruments like the violin - there's less interest in the guitar. There's a prestige attached to it.

[Hep To The Jive]

This has occurred to me - people seeking more 'IRL' experiences as AI kills the internet.

(For myself, I've noticed that there's less and less online content that I want to engage with. I think this is more a second order aspect of AI - I just think people are making less effort in response to AI, and on the other hand almost everything seems to be focussed around a narrow range of topics on YouTube for instance. It's almost enough to get me to leave the house.)

OTOH no-one has any money to go out.

So it's a bit of column A, column B.

How so? Is the economy that bad? Or are you talking about musicians don't have money to go out to see other musicians gigs? I think London like NYC has a night life still in healthy shape, or no?

[Christian Miller]

How so? Is the economy that bad? Or are you talking about musicians don't have money to go out to see other musicians gigs? I think London like NYC has a night life still in healthy shape, or no?

The rubbishness of the nightlife in London has long been a bone of contention. Licensing laws do mean that places shut rather early here - usually about 11pm. Back in my student days we all ended up congregating at the same two terrible bars in central London, now long gone - and that was back in the boom times of the late 90's and 00's. The other option was queuing up to get into a (dance music) club. Incidentally, Ronnie Scotts is one of the places that does open late. You can jam there until the wee small hours.

Obviously you lived in NYC, so can speak to that better than I can, but it seems much better.

The economy in the UK has been stagnant for a long time, really since the financial crash of 2008. Additionally, since Covid, we have a cost of living crisis. Everybody has seen their pay stay the same as food and heating prices increase - and that's true even of many high earners in the financial services industry (setting aside the super wealthly who do not derive their income from salaries).

At the same time, and this is quite interesting, the younger generation - the Zoomers - don't really go out to drink alcohol. They are more likely to spend time at the gym or playing video games at home. Where they do go to gigs they probably won't be spending much money at the bar. (They also as a demographic have the least spending power anyway.) So this has had a knock on effect on the hospitality industry. Pubs now cater mostly for middle aged people.

As the financial centre, London is somewhat insulated against these things that have really hammered other parts of the UK, but it is an issue for all of us, especially as we all paying big housing costs to live in the city. So we really feel it.

[James W]

The rubbishness of the nightlife in London has long been a bone of contention. Licensing laws do mean that places shut rather early here - usually about 11pm. Back in my student days we all ended up congregating at the same two terrible bars in central London, now long gone - and that was back in the boom times of the late 90's and 00's. The other option was queuing up to get into a (dance music) club. Incidentally, Ronnie Scotts is one of the places that does open late. You can jam there until the wee small hours.

Obviously you lived in NYC, so can speak to that better than I can, but it seems much better.

The economy in the UK has been stagnant for a long time, really since the financial crash of 2008. Additionally, since Covid, we have a cost of living crisis. Everybody has seen their pay stay the same as food and heating prices increase - and that's true even of many high earners in the financial services industry (setting aside the super wealthly who do not derive their income from salaries).

At the same time, and this is quite interesting, the younger generation - the Zoomers - don't really go out to drink alcohol. They are more likely to spend time at the gym or playing video games at home. Where they do go to gigs they probably won't be spending much money at the bar. (They also as a demographic have the least spending power anyway.) So this has had a knock on effect on the hospitality industry. Pubs now cater mostly for middle aged people.

As the financial centre, London is somewhat insulated against these things that have really hammered other parts of the UK, but it is an issue for all of us, especially as we all paying big housing costs to live in the city. So we really feel it.

My dad recently made the observation that compared with him and his siblings, the younger generation (me and my siblings and cousins) hardly drink at all, for one reason or another. (Although I didn't tell him about my preferred illicit method of intoxication! Haha).

The jazz scene in Birmingham is pretty good as far as I can make out. Digbeth Jazz won an award for best venue for jazz this year - and it is a very nice venue - nice atmosphere and crowd. I go to many free jazz/improv gigs as well which have a small but dedicated following.

But yeah, cost of living crisis is pretty bad.

[alltunes]

Around these parts many bar “patrons” at live performances take gummies and drink water. At the ubiquitous Dead cover band show this is glaringly obvious. BTW are Dead cover band shows everywhere near you too?

I went to see Wynton this summer with his Lincoln Center jazz orchestra. Hardly anybody there at Bethel Woods. It was a shame because the music was very melodic and appealing. I was struck by the thought of how many people would enjoy it if they gave it a try including the “jam band” scene folks.

Billy Strings selling out arenas everywhere and they jam indulgently.

[joe2758]

are Dead cover band shows everywhere near you too?

I hope not

[Hep To The Jive]

The rubbishness of the nightlife in London has long been a bone of contention. Licensing laws do mean that places shut rather early here - usually about 11pm. Back in my student days we all ended up congregating at the same two terrible bars in central London, now long gone - and that was back in the boom times of the late 90's and 00's. The other option was queuing up to get into a (dance music) club. Incidentally, Ronnie Scotts is one of the places that does open late. You can jam there until the wee small hours.

Obviously you lived in NYC, so can speak to that better than I can, but it seems much better.

The economy in the UK has been stagnant for a long time, really since the financial crash of 2008. Additionally, since Covid, we have a cost of living crisis. Everybody has seen their pay stay the same as food and heating prices increase - and that's true even of many high earners in the financial services industry (setting aside the super wealthly who do not derive their income from salaries).

At the same time, and this is quite interesting, the younger generation - the Zoomers - don't really go out to drink alcohol. They are more likely to spend time at the gym or playing video games at home. Where they do go to gigs they probably won't be spending much money at the bar. (They also as a demographic have the least spending power anyway.) So this has had a knock on effect on the hospitality industry. Pubs now cater mostly for middle aged people.

As the financial centre, London is somewhat insulated against these things that have really hammered other parts of the UK, but it is an issue for all of us, especially as we all paying big housing costs to live in the city. So we really feel it.

right, NYC's nightlife has always been amazing, you could party till 5am in East Village, and bar hop.

In Shanghai the live music clubs the last set goes up to 1am, and some still open after that. Nothing on the scale of NYC but still not too bad.

So with the stagnant economy and rubbish night live, how come the jazz scene is thriving in UK? From what you described sounds like it's pretty bad condition for live music, what am i missing?

[Christian Miller]

So with the stagnant economy and rubbish night live, how come the jazz scene is thriving in UK? From what you described sounds like it's pretty bad condition for live music, what am i missing?

The simple answer is I'm not really sure haha. London is still rich, especially compared to the rest of the country. This drives a live music scene.

The longer answer is things sort of organise themselves a bit differently here. I could bore you with the specifics, but London despite being about the same size as New York is quite different in terms of lay out. So the jazz scene works a bit differently. There's less hanging out in one geographical area where the bulk of the live music clubs are for instance, which I do think our scene misses out on, like running into musicians and hanging out, and so on. You get a bit of that, but nothing like the Village.

[Christian Miller]

The jazz scene in Birmingham is pretty good as far as I can make out. Digbeth Jazz won an award for best venue for jazz this year - and it is a very nice venue - nice atmosphere and crowd. I go to many free jazz/improv gigs as well which have a small but dedicated following.

But yeah, cost of living crisis is pretty bad.

Ah yeah! Many great musicians coming out of Birmingham. I had a student go there during Covid lockdown and I was impressed by how he was telling me that really went out of their way to find ways to ensure players could still play together and still have a community within the school. Some students at other institutions got a really raw deal by comparison. So I tend to feel that they are doing the right stuff for the right reasons. And that ethos helps build a great scene, which produces great musicians.

As Peter Bernstein says - this music is a micro economy. Which has disadvantages, but also advantages. It made me laugh because I think he was talking about Dorking jazz club - it's Barry Harris or the Goldings Trio in a sports hall miles from London, all run by a somebody utterly dedicated and completely insane. And yet it works.

[Stringswinger]

Fred Sanford's sage advice back in the 1970's holds very true for a professional jazz musician of today, to wit;

"All a man needs is a good woman........with a good job".

[grahambop]

As Peter Bernstein says - this music is a micro economy. Which has disadvantages, but also advantages. It made me laugh because I think he was talking about Dorking jazz club - it's Barry Harris or the Goldings Trio in a sports hall miles from London, all run by a somebody utterly dedicated and complexity insane. And yet it works.

Haha yes that’s the Watermill jazz club, I’ve seen both Peter and Barry there, I go there quite often. Actually it’s in a golf club, nice location and they have a good piano on site.

They have an admirable policy of booking less well-known acts from all over, as well as the more dependable ‘draws’ like Alan Barnes or big American names, and making it all balance out. The musicians always seem to speak highly of the club.

[John A.]

10 years ago or so I'd say jazz scene is alive and well and musicians can still make a living... Now I just don't know, how?

I was talking to my friend, a really good and established singer on NYC jazz scene, and i asked her, you play with some top cats in the city, do they make a living from music that allows them to live comfortably in NYC? Because in my estimation in order to do that you need to make around $80,000, can they? She said most of them live with roomates or do have another job.

Then we talked about an average gig pay, and damn, it's pretty much the same as here in Shanghai, $100 club gigs, and $400 for a function on average? Only the cost of living in China twice as less, so I just don't know anymore, NYC is thriving, but how do they live? If you're young it's ok, but if you in your 50's, 60's, do you still want to live with a roomate, and how can you afford to have a family?

Actually couple of guys I know who are gigging they have spouses with really good jobs, so I guess family could be a solution, just not the way you'd traditionally think haha.

Is Europe any different?

Most NYC families (or couples) need two salaries to have a decent standard of living, and at least one of those salaries has to come with health insurance. That's not just musicians, that's true for everybody. $80k/year sounds like a decent income to people living in many other parts of the country, but in NYC it's really not. This situation has been true for pretty much my entire adult life (i.e., since the mid 1980s). To a degree, it used to be a bit less harsh because housing wasn't always quite this dire, but the difference between a "middle class" life and poverty for someone in the arts has pretty much always been a spouse (or an inheritance).

[Christian Miller]

Haha yes that’s the Watermill jazz club, I’ve seen both Peter and Barry there, I go there quite often. Actually it’s in a golf club, nice location and they have a good piano on site.

They have an admirable policy of booking less well-known acts from all over, as well as the more dependable ‘draws’ like Alan Barnes or big American names, and making it all balance out. The musicians always seem to speak highly of the club.

That’s the one. Never made it down, but it is legendary.


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[Mick-7]

Most NYC families (or couples) need two salaries to have a decent standard of living, and at least one of those salaries has to come with health insurance. That's not just musicians, that's true for everybody. $80k/year sounds like a decent income to people living in many other parts of the country, but in NYC it's really not. This situation has been true for pretty much my entire adult life (i.e., since the mid 1980s). To a degree, it used to be a bit less harsh because housing wasn't always quite this dire, but the difference between a "middle class" life and poverty for someone in the arts has pretty much always been a spouse (or an inheritance).

In parts of the San Francisco Bay Area, $100k a year is now considered low income and qualifies you for subsidized affordable housing, NYC is similar or worse. Stories of Google employees living out of their cars (in Silicon Valley) are not uncommon, it's just an insane economic situation.

$100K a year now considered ‘low income’ in 4 Bay Area counties, report says – NBC Bay Area

[nyc chaz]

Most NYC families (or couples) need two salaries to have a decent standard of living, and at least one of those salaries has to come with health insurance. That's not just musicians, that's true for everybody. $80k/year sounds like a decent income to people living in many other parts of the country, but in NYC it's really not. This situation has been true for pretty much my entire adult life (i.e., since the mid 1980s). To a degree, it used to be a bit less harsh because housing wasn't always quite this dire, but the difference between a "middle class" life and poverty for someone in the arts has pretty much always been a spouse (or an inheritance).

It's true what you say about the cost of living in NY.That being said,a lot of people are just lazy today and bad with money.They have to have their food delivered,hire a year round lawn service and housekeeper,all things they could do themselves for a lot less.They also don't need to be paying for 5 to 8 streaming services like many people do.The new thing where i live is to hire Home Depot to put Xmas lights on their house which costs a couple hundred bucks.Then these same people will moan and groan about not having enough money.Things are definitely crazy expensive today,i'm not denying that but many people just make it worst for themselves not using some common sense.Now if you will excuse me i need to go yell at some clouds.

[arnie65]

We've lost quite a bit of the jazz pioneers (both singers, and instrumentalists) during the last 35 years, however, the internet is the best thing that has happened to jazz. The generation after the pioneers, who's till around, and the new generations after that, have been exposed like never before to jazz of all genres though the internet. I see more and more kids studying and playing jazz than ever before, including a new generation of amazing vocalists too. Even though the golden age of jazz has long passed, there's a resurgence of this beautiful art form, specially in Europe. It's a shame that jazz has always been more respected and revered in Europe than in the country that it was created. I'm happy to say, that every time I get invited to a "black tie" soiree, (party) the music being played is jazz!
I don't think the jazz scene is actually dying, but it's certainly not what it used to be.



Cheers,
Arnie..

[nyc chaz]

Some people on this thread are saying that there are a lot more people playing jazz today.I hope that is true but that hasn't been my experience.The majority of people today listening to music use a streaming service.If there is a jazz resurgence,why is jazz at the bottom below one percent on streaming charts? Jazz years ago used to have a larger audience than one percent of the listening population.

[Christian Miller]

I just came back from local jam session where three local kids still at school showed up at and killed it on Cherokee. Always nice to see. Tbh I feel this sort of thing is more common these days if anything.

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[Christian Miller]

Some people on this thread are saying that there are a lot more people playing jazz today.I hope that is true but that hasn't been my experience.The majority of people today listening to music use a streaming service.If there is a jazz resurgence,why is jazz at the bottom below one percent on streaming charts? Jazz years ago used to have a larger audience than one percent of the listening population.

A majority of people don’t listen to music. They just have it on.


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[pauln]

The AI chatbot suggested that the decline is due to a large degree in people not dressing the part. In fact, until I inquired, I did not even realize we have a dress code, you don't hear about it on YouTube.

What is the dress code for jazz music?

Smart Casual for a Laid-Back Jazz Bar
For a more relaxed jazz bar, a smart casual outfit strikes the right balance. Men: A fitted blazer or sweater with dark jeans or chinos. Loafers or polished boots add a sophisticated touch. Women: A stylish blouse with jeans or a midi skirt, paired with ankle boots or flats.

Dress For Success!

[Hep To The Jive]

Most NYC families (or couples) need two salaries to have a decent standard of living, and at least one of those salaries has to come with health insurance. That's not just musicians, that's true for everybody. $80k/year sounds like a decent income to people living in many other parts of the country, but in NYC it's really not. This situation has been true for pretty much my entire adult life (i.e., since the mid 1980s). To a degree, it used to be a bit less harsh because housing wasn't always quite this dire, but the difference between a "middle class" life and poverty for someone in the arts has pretty much always been a spouse (or an inheritance).

yea, that's true. My ex gf was the difference between me living with roomates in some dodgy neighborhood and my "middle class" life haha. Never liked the feeling of codependency though... I'm dreading to ever come back living in NYC again tbh, it'd be like starting from zero again, only i'm not in my 20's anymore.

For musicians the problem especially is the pay didn't increase with infaltion, so the gap is widening with time, like 10 years ago it was bad, but not that bad! I mean, look at the rent prices.

[wolflen]

In parts of the San Francisco Bay Area, $100k a year is now considered low income and qualifies you for subsidized affordable housing, NYC is similar or worse. Stories of Google employees living out of their cars (in Silicon Valley) are not uncommon, it's just an insane economic situation.

the poor millionaire

The stories I heard growing up about the 29 depression..and how much one dollar could buy and you got change back!

If the "it can't happen here" mindset meets the 21st century econ meltdown..it will not matter which chess piece is president.

Running a 38 Trillion+ debt--keep spending and think you can keep on doing the same --and nothing will happen

The old "joke": How can we be out of money...we still have checks."

Ahh..one of our classic standards..Here's That Rainy Day

[Msfazer]

Music is like water — it will always find a path forward. It may change and evolve over time, and not everyone will agree with the direction it takes, but it will continue to move and develop.

This is not specifically a jazz issue; it is a challenge across all music. Music is an art form that usually takes a long time to learn before someone can create something that others genuinely want to listen to. Regardless of genre, a certain level of knowledge and skill is required before meaningful artistic results can happen.

At the same time, people’s attention spans are getting shorter, and fewer individuals are interested in long-term development and dedication. Given how the world has changed, it is hard to blame younger generations for this.