How frowned upon is using guitar tablature?

[Tal_175]

What an ugly thing to say. You really are a nasty little man.

Yep, that's what I'm talking about.

[Litterick]

that’s not true. I have a lot of respect for Jonah’s views and he frequently disagrees with me haha

The truth is that there are arguments I disagree with that I respect, and others that I disagree with that I don’t. Not every argument deserves respect; some deserve to be pulled apart. Otoh We all make excuses and BS rationalisations sometimes, I don’t think someone’s a bad person for doing it. But I don’t respect it even when I do it! Which is often.

But this is as I say, not about me. Go and find someone YOU respect and ask them. Presumably you are not concerned with my validation.



I wasn’t talking about professionals either. I’d tell anyone the same who is interested in playing in jazz bands and ensembles. Getting conversant with staff notation (and of course chord symbols) is going to make a huge difference to your ability to function in those settings. You don’t have to be a gun reader.

I’d also tell anyone who is serious about becoming a better player to wean themselves off the tab. Not everyone is on that mission, fine, but if you are, there it is. Take it or leave it … .

Also - I think this is important to restate given the membership of the forum. Don’t get too hung up about the amateur/pro thing - I try to be careful not to couch it in those terms myself. There’s some seriously capable amateurs on here. The distinction is based on whether or not you have decided to earn income from it and there’s many reasons why one might choose not to. Amateur is not a descriptor of ability. (Pro neither tbh haha)



maybe the last word is less for you, but more to challenge what I think is bad information for others who might be reading. I know I often lurk on other sites.

It is not worth arguing with you, Christian. Your disrespect for the views of others and your astonishing self-regard make it an unpleasant experience. So I am blocking you.

[kris]

So what?

.................

[Christian Miller]

Well you know, I appreciate blackcat’s sense of humour … some people seem to take it very personally when they encounter pushback, let alone a bit of humour.

I’ve learned a couple of things over the years here…

if you find yourself getting riled up by @&£*heads on the forum, take a break. This place doesn’t deserve that much emotional investment.

the other thing is - you can’t actually argue your way into being a better musican.

[Christian Miller]

The Bellson book basically recycles a portion of the melody from One Note Samba, but varies the rhythm.

Colin/Bower's contents, by now, are extremely old fashioned sounding syncopathed swing rhythms. I don't see a publication date on my copy, but I got it in 1964.

The exercises are like little songs and include chord changes. Start pretty easy if you finished Mel Bay 2, but, by the end, they're comparable in difficulty to a lot of what I read regularly in my big bands.

They present 26 different rhythmic components which are shown with arrows to tell you which way your foot is going when you should play the note. Then you play a little song using that rhythm, among others.

The material goes up to 6 flats but only 3 sharps. As a historical note, the key of E was invented in 1955, which explains that. B and F# were developed soon thereafter, but also well after the book was written.

My teacher back then, Sid Margolis, wrote in the date of each lesson. They go from 9/25/64 to 4/7/65. I started at the beginning of 1964. So, part of this was learning the fingerboard above the 4th fret, because Sid had me play all of it an octave up as well as as-written.

Actually I think you’ll find the F# was invented in 1956.

[blackcat]

What an ugly thing to say. The fact that you use 'beginner' as a term of abuse says so much about you. You really are a nasty little man.

Thanks for that. If he knew the truth I think even he might be a tad embarassed.

[blackcat]

Well you know, I appreciate blackcat’s sense of humour … some people seem to take it very personally when they encounter pushback, let alone a bit of humour.

I’ve learned a couple of things over the years here…

if you find yourself getting riled up by @&£*heads on the forum, take a break. This place doesn’t deserve that much emotional investment.

the other thing is - you can’t actually argue your way into being a better musican.

Thank you Christian - really appreciate it. You nailed it in one. As reported elsewhere, I am actually a fan of your site/teaching/playing and appreciate your slightly whimsical delivery. Besides, you play a Tele and a 335!

[blackcat]

That's the way it is on this forum...discussions with strangers.
This is the internet-unfortunately.

I have posted here since 2008 - how about you Kris? 'Stranger'?

[blackcat]

Martin Taylor and Bireli lagrene are tour the US shortly ( Fibonacci) en duo. One reads ( very well one suspects ) and the other, who famously flunked naming a minor pentatonic in an outake from one of his tuition videos clearly doesn't. One wonders how they will cope?

[blackcat]

don't go off topic

Quoi?

[kris]

Well you know, I appreciate blackcat’s sense of humour … some people seem to take it very personally when they encounter pushback, let alone a bit of humour.

I’ve learned a couple of things over the years here…

if you find yourself getting riled up by @&£*heads on the forum, take a break. This place doesn’t deserve that much emotional investment.

the other thing is - you can’t actually argue your way into being a better musican.

+1
I have the same feeling.

[kris]

Martin Taylor and Bireli lagrene are tour the US shortly ( Fibonacci) en duo. One reads ( very well one suspects ) and the other, who famously flunked naming a minor pentatonic in an outake from one of his tuition videos clearly doesn't. One wonders how they will cope?

It's a good thing they don't write about tablature on this forum.

[kris]

I have posted here since 2008 - how about you Kris? 'Stranger'?

I don't know your recordings... few posts for such a long period of time.
I have over 8000 posts - since 2008... :-)
I think I am more active here...sorry.

[Litterick]

Well you know, I appreciate blackcat’s sense of humour … some people seem to take it very personally when they encounter pushback, let alone a bit of humour..

"Why are you taking it personally; haven't you got a sense of humour?" is a bully's response. 'Some people' is a coward's response. Divide and rule is an obvious response.

if you find yourself getting riled up by @&£*heads on the forum, take a break. This place doesn’t deserve that much emotional investment.

Thanks for the advice, but it is more convenient to add you to my ignore list.

the other thing is - you can’t actually argue your way into being a better musican

Insulting an opponent's musicianship must be a chapter in the jazzhole's playbook.

[kris]

Contact via the Internet is a great experience for me.
The tablature creates a personal injury to the participants.
Mercy.
... is it a kindergarten?
...ignorant lists for playing musicians with a large input of knowledge ... a revelation!
If you put me on that list, it would be an honor for me!

[Christian Miller]

"Why are you taking it personally; haven't you got a sense of humour?" is a bully's response. 'Some people' is a coward's response. Divide and rule is an obvious response.



Thanks for the advice, but it is more convenient to add you to my ignore list.



Insulting an opponent's musicianship must be a chapter in the jazzhole's playbook.

i thought you’d blocked me already?

How have I insulted your musicianship? I actually have no idea how you play, I can only address what you are saying here, which I do not think hold up as coherent arguments. in any case your level of accomplishment is actually irrelevant for the purposes of either of my points, which is that I don’t think tab will help you improve one’s musicianship in the long run, and that tab is not used in the wider jazz community beyond maybe guitar lessons.

The first is a professional opinion btw so is more open to being disputed, the second is a verifiable fact, and if interested one can work out if what I have said is true or not from asking other experienced musicians.

The issue is not - how do you play, how is your musicianship etc - but what is good advice for improving one’s musicianship - perhaps a student, perhaps yourself, perhaps myself. (I presume you don’t think your musicianship is unimprovable.) Otoh if you already read and learn music by ear on the guitar i can’t really see why this advice would be in any way controversial.

I did at one point poke fun at the way a lot of the pro tab arguments come across as excuses. I also pointed out that we all make excuses - including myself - for avoiding things we know to be good that we’d rather not do. We might not wish for example to exercise or eat healthier food even though we know it would be better for us, and construct sophisticated excuses to justify this to ourselves and get touchy when our bs is called out. I know I do this all the time.

In fact, this is a common human behaviour not limited to seven years olds, although they are more transparent and less sophisticated about it (but the behaviour is quickly learned.) Maybe some adults think they are de facto better than kids, as opposed to simply more experienced. I dunno.

[grahambop]

Re. Martin Taylor, he has said he does not read music very well, in fact for the first 15 years of his career he could not read at all. He got his first job (on a cruise ship) by lying about his reading, then faking everything by ear. By the time he was rumbled, it was too late to throw him off the ship!

[Christian Miller]

Contact via the Internet is a great experience for me.
The tablature creates a personal injury to the participants.
Mercy.
... is it a kindergarten?
...ignorant lists for playing musicians with a large input of knowledge ... a revelation!
If you put me on that list, it would be an honor for me!

Some people just want to be told they’re Ok and it’s cool for them to do what they like. And that’s true. I’m not, contrary to popular belief, the jazz police.

But that doesn’t mean that they are doing what is best for their playing.

And sure, not everyone who is hobbyist wants to improve either and there’s value in doing something at a low level for the sheer fun of it (I feel I could do with a hobby like that.) Or maybe they have their own personal musical universe that they love exploring or something.

But if this is the case why would they want to be reassured that they are on a good path for improvement as jazz players? Doesn’t make sense to me.

The only answer I can think of is that they are not, in fact, having fun with it.

[Christian Miller]

Re. Martin Taylor, he has said he does not read music very well, in fact for the first 15 years of his career he could not read at all. He got his first job (on a cruise ship) by lying about his reading, then faking everything by ear. By the time he was rumbled, it was too late to throw him off the ship!

Ah there’s loads of brilliant jazz players who can barely read a note, I know loads. (just to be clear my argument has never been ‘everyone should learn to read.’)

[Tal_175]

What an ugly thing to say. The fact that you use 'beginner' as a term of abuse says so much about you. You really are a nasty little man.

Nasty? Yeah tell me about it.
Sorry but your arguments come across as very childish. You haven't said anything of any substance in this thread. You're just being nasty left and right towards anyone whose opinion you don't like.

[Christian Miller]

Or maybe it’s another manifestation of the dispute over the meaning of ‘jazz guitarist’. Which is a debate over a name. By saying 'these are the skills valued but the jazz community' people may feel that they are being told they are not a jazz musician or something if they don't have those skills.

I mean, bearing in mind my opinion that reliance on tab comes at the expense of developing ears and less importantly, staff notation reading, is not really that much to do with jazz or Jazz or jass or whatever I don't really see why that's a big deal.

OTOH, there is also a very real sense in which the jazz community does get to call it.

But in the wider sense, I do also understand people want to identify as jazz musicians even if they have no interest in playing the changes to Stella or reading real book lead sheets or big band charts and so on.

I’m not that fussed about it myself, my problems with this are mostly practical and based on the fact that vocabulary is thin on the ground. Jazz is a small word for a big music. I do think it’s reasonable to draw a distinction between players who can play standards and maybe read charts etc to those who might be dedicated to free improv, or writing and recording their own solo material or something without interest in those more mainstream areas.

People seem to invest a lot prestige in the word ‘jazz’ which is funny really, Miles couldn’t get away from it fast enough… I remember a few years back Cameron Pierre saying in an interview he didn’t feel he was a jazz guitarist lol (he bloody is IMO.) In general the usage is quite normative. Any definition will fail. We can all agree that the guitarist playing standards on an archtop definitely is a jazz guitarist (well most people haha, maybe not Cameron apparently), but there's an extended penumbra where it's not so clear cut and that's where the quibbling comes in. TBH that's true of most things.

When I say jazz guitarist in this context I am generally referring to someone who is active in the jazz community (which of course is many sub communities) playing music, pro or amateur, doesn't matter. There are specific skills that that community expects of musicians. If self identifying jazz guitarists feel minimised or insulted because I am suggesting they are not jazz guitarists because they aren't active in that community and aren't interested in those skills, it's kind of hard to know what inoffensive vocabulary to use, really. Hopefully my meaning is reasonably clear from context. I'm not talking about free improv gigs for example.

[pauln]

As of a few days ago, I am officially certified "Not mad at theory" and I
have added that honor to my metals on my avatar. There is still room
for a badge but if I join the jazz police will that badge scratch my guitar?

[Tal_175]

Martin Taylor and Bireli lagrene are tour the US shortly ( Fibonacci) en duo. One reads ( very well one suspects ) and the other, who famously flunked naming a minor pentatonic in an outake from one of his tuition videos clearly doesn't. One wonders how they will cope?

It's the same false dichotomy again as with the Art Tatum example earlier in the thread. Art Tatum and Bireli are/were ear players. This is not an "ear vs notation" thread nor a "Why ear players are frowned upon?" thread. A musician may not know the standard notation and also not use tabs. There is no contradiction there.

[kris]

Re. Martin Taylor, he has said he does not read music very well, in fact for the first 15 years of his career he could not read at all. He got his first job (on a cruise ship) by lying about his reading, then faking everything by ear. By the time he was rumbled, it was too late to throw him off the ship!

But he was probably playing a guitar solo....?
He was not employed in a band playing the so-called shows on a passenger ship.
Musicians for shows are verified before signing the contract.
Solo gigs can be played without knowing the sheet music.

[kris]

Ah there’s loads of brilliant jazz players who can barely read a note, I know loads. (just to be clear my argument has never been ‘everyone should learn to read.’)

I know musicians like that too, but I think they can learn to read sheet music....
There are situations where you have to prove your reading of notes.
In such situations, the one who plays well and reads the notes always wins.
Such a musician/reading sheet music/has more work to do.