How frowned upon is using guitar tablature?

[kris]

Or maybe we need to divide this Jazz guitar forum into three groups...?
1 reading tablature
2 reading sheet music
3 reading tablature and sheet music
...and maybe a fourth group - musicians playing by ear...
I wonder how a forum like this works?
greetings to all

[Christian Miller]

I know musicians like that too, but I think they can learn to read sheet music....
There are situations where you have to prove your reading of notes.
In such situations, the one who plays well and reads the notes always wins.
Such a musician/reading sheet music/has more work to do.

Yep, if you want to play in as many sitatuions as possible, reading's going to help. I'd be failing in my duty as a teacher if I didn't tell students that.

I don't think its ALL important. That's the ears... but it is very very helpful as a skill.

[blackcat]

I don't know your recordings... few posts for such a long period of time.
I have over 8000 posts - since 2008... :-)
I think I am more active here...sorry.

Is it a competition?

[Christian Miller]

Martin Taylor and Bireli lagrene are tour the US shortly ( Fibonacci) en duo. One reads ( very well one suspects ) and the other, who famously flunked naming a minor pentatonic in an outake from one of his tuition videos clearly doesn't. One wonders how they will cope?

Yeah bro, I missed that one. You checkmated me with this one rofl.

Gah, let me try again.

Learning by ear, reading music staff notation and reading tab are all different ways of learning music.

Ear - the essential thing to work on for most of us. Most jazz musicians have spent a lot of time learning a lot of music - solos and/or repertoire - by ear. The exceptions - such as maybe Gary Burton - are unusually gifted outliers.

Reading - very useful skill for widening your opportunities as a player. Not all good jazz players read, but a lot of them do. Not all those who read are good jazz musicians.

Tab - useful for learning the instrument but not really part of jazz in general, and probably a good thing to get away from as you develop.

You can find out about the traditional Manouche way to learn the guitar for instance, if interested. See also 'mad at theory' dumpster fire.

Alternatively, good troll!

[blackcat]

Re. Martin Taylor, he has said he does not read music very well, in fact for the first 15 years of his career he could not read at all. He got his first job (on a cruise ship) by lying about his reading, then faking everything by ear. By the time he was rumbled, it was too late to throw him off the ship!

That makes two them then! I understand that he spent much of that cruise closely watching the piano player. Interestingly he also claims never to have transcribed a whole song/solo only 'lines and phrases'. Nice guy.

[blackcat]

Yeah bro, I missed that one. You checkmated me with this one rofl.

Gah, let me try again.

Learning by ear, reading music staff notation and reading tab are all different ways of learning music.

Ear - the essential thing to work on. Most jazz musicians have spent a lot of time learning a lot of music - solos and/or repertoire - by ear. Those that haven't are naturally gifted (like Gary Burton)
Reading - very useful skill for widening your opportunities as a player. Not all good jazz players read, but a lot of them do. Not all those who read are good jazz musicians.
Tab - useful for learning the instrument but not really part of jazz in general, and probably a good thing to get away from as you develop.

You can find out about the traditional Manouche way to learn the guitar for instance, if interested. See also 'mad at theory' dumpster fire.

Alternatively, good troll!

Neat Bro' BTW, New Bireli model (plug) out later this year.

[Christian Miller]

That makes two them then! I understand that he spent much of that cruise closely watching the piano player. Interestingly he also claims never to have transcribed a whole song/solo only 'lines and phrases'. Nice guy.

You should have asked him for the tabz.

[blackcat]

You should have asked him for the tabz.

Told me that he would include them in his next book. He did - 'Etudes'. Not sure about pointy shoes however - standard fayre over here for functionnaires and dodgy salesmen.

[Litterick]

Is it a competition?

Kris made most of his posts in that argument about theory with the rude organist.

[grahambop]

But he was probably playing a guitar solo....?
He was not employed in a band playing the so-called shows on a passenger ship.
Musicians for shows are verified before signing the contract.
Solo gigs can be played without knowing the sheet music.

No, I believe he was playing in the band. This was before he started doing the solo stuff.

He just picked it up by ear by listening to the other musicians. Probably not that hard for someone like him to do.

[blackcat]

No, I believe he was playing in the band. This was before he started doing the solo stuff.

He just picked it up by ear by listening to the other musicians. Probably not that hard for someone like him to do.

He claims that he passed the audition by saying that in fact he could read music. Then followed a period of stress I believe.

[grahambop]

Kris made most of his posts in that argument about theory with the rude organist.

lol, made me think of Terry Jones...

[Christian Miller]

Told me that he would include them in his next book. He did - 'Etudes'. Not sure about pointy shoes however - standard fayre over here for functionnaires and dodgy salesmen.

I got a pair like that. It wasn't my choice....

I guess there's a difference between learning the mechanics of guitar playing (which is not nothing btw) trying to learn difficult techniques (such as MT finger style solo guitar) and the skillset valued by people who play actual jazz gigs. A book of MT etudes is going to teach you something, but it's not going to work on your musicianship, if that makes sense. You'll probably learn some things about playing the guitar. Some people are VERY focussed on the mechanics of guitar playing and learning techniques. Perhaps a majority of people ar primarily focussed on that, whereas for jazz players, I would say it's one of a number of concerns.

MT is amazing and very guitaristic, and quite 'set piecey'. So for example, learning to play an MT etude or an exact transcription of a solo arrangement of his, is to me is a valuable thing to do if it floats your boat, but doesn't have that much with being a jazz guitarist, as weird as that might sound. For becoming a rounded jazz guitarist, I would say it would be more relevant to being a jazz player to come up with a simple arrangement of a standard yourself, as basic as that might be, and develop slowly your own way of playing, as MT himself did. (And of course not many can play solo guitar like MT, and yet they still have careers in jazz and so on.) But many people are more results oriented than process oriented and want to play the really cool thing and that's fair enough.

And TBH if my objective was to learn an etude verbatim and that was it, tab would probably be the most direct route even now. However, that's not usually my only goal. It might more like - learn a cool piece, but also work on my reading or my ears, for instance.

So, by learning pieces of guitar music straight from tab, you aren't really emulating the whole process of real, gigging, jazz guitarists (amateur or pro). It's not how we tend to go about things. And that may be totally fine with you. But I think that is the thing that has relevance to the OP.

I suppose, it's about keeping the specific aim in sight. If you know what your objective is - be it to play a jazz guitar solo verbatim, come up with your own, or learn to be a better jazz musician - it's important to know what the appropriate way to work on it is.

[kris]

Is it a competition?

Information.

[kris]

Kris made most of his posts in that argument about theory with the rude organist.

:-)
I deleted them all. And I feel better.

[kris]

That makes two them then! I understand that he spent much of that cruise closely watching the piano player. Interestingly he also claims never to have transcribed a whole song/solo only 'lines and phrases'. Nice guy.

I worked on a passenger ship.
I would like to play like Martin and I might not know notes or tablature.
Exelent jazz player!!!

[kris]

About 25 years ago I bought a videos plus booklet with a Martin Taylor solo guitar.
His arrangements of standards for solo guitar are simply gems of guitar playing.
The keys are different than, for example, in the Real Book.
It's just great guitar music.

[RLetson]

you can’t actually argue your way into being a better musican.

Oh, drat--and here I was hoping my Jesuit education was going to improve my playing.

But serially: As I've posted (often), I'm a jumped-up folkie who can't read notation (though I might be able to construe a simple chart, given enough time), loves standards, and is often mistaken for a jazz player--by other folkies who think that playing "Ain't Misbehavin'" with shell chords up the neck is jazz. (I keep correcting them--I aspire to playing swing rhythm and singing like a jazz singer.) The bop-tropic guys who tolerate me on Thursday nights certainly understand my limitations. (I keep waiting for them to lose patience. So I keep my volume low and sit out a lot.) Nevertheless, I think of myself as at least jazz-adjacent, even when I'm reading the Real Book chords and not the notes. And I learn tunes by ear and accompaniment by chart and ear. Nobody is ever going to hire me for a pit band (I lost a gig to a reader whose grasp of the idiom was in fact not as solid as mine) or cocktail-hour job, but then in this realm I'm a genuine amateur.

I encountered variations on the Martin Taylor anecdote during my years of music journalism--Django, Gabby Pahinui, Led Kaapana, Glen Campbell, Martin Taylor, all learning by ear on the bandstand or in the studio. Hell, I've played with musicians like that my own self. Which doesn't mean that first-call players in NYC or LA aren't expected to be sight-readers, and probably better at it than some orchestral musicians (who, after all, get plenty of rehearsal time). If I could re-engineer my musical life, I would certainly include sight-reading skills, along with solfeggio and ear-training--and I'd insist that my parents own a piano. But at this end of my life, I'll limp along with a better-than-average musical memory and indulgent bandmates.

[blackcat]

[QUOTE=Christian Miller;1259569]I got a pair like that. It wasn't my choice....

Ah, but do you actually wear them? Can't quite see you in those things on the streets of south London ( a guess )

David

[Irishmuso]

Not sure about pointy shoes however -

I agree about pointy shoes in general but these are Cowboy boots I think, which are always cool.

[Christian Miller]

[QUOTE=blackcat;1259626]

I got a pair like that. It wasn't my choice....

Ah, but do you actually wear them? Can't quite see you in those things on the streets of south London ( a guess )

David

what cos south london isn’t in the late Middle Ages when pointy shoes were a thing? No idea what you may be insinuating. I’ll nick your catalytic converter, m8.

I wear my standard issue South london middle class dad outfit comprising a pair of brightly coloured ‘custom’ converse, red trousers and a blue diesel puffer jacket. We all wear precisely the same thing and we all have the same personality and same glazed, slack jawed visage.

[Christian Miller]

Oh, drat--and here I was hoping my Jesuit education was going to improve my playing.

But serially: As I've posted (often), I'm a jumped-up folkie who can't read notation (though I might be able to construe a simple chart, given enough time), loves standards, and is often mistaken for a jazz player--by other folkies who think that playing "Ain't Misbehavin'" with shell chords up the neck is jazz. (I keep correcting them--I aspire to playing swing rhythm and singing like a jazz singer.) The bop-tropic guys who tolerate me on Thursday nights certainly understand my limitations. (I keep waiting for them to lose patience. So I keep my volume low and sit out a lot.) Nevertheless, I think of myself as at least jazz-adjacent, even when I'm reading the Real Book chords and not the notes. And I learn tunes by ear and accompaniment by chart and ear. Nobody is ever going to hire me for a pit band (I lost a gig to a reader whose grasp of the idiom was in fact not as solid as mine) or cocktail-hour job, but then in this realm I'm a genuine amateur.

I encountered variations on the Martin Taylor anecdote my years of music journalism--Django, Gabby Pahinui, Led Kaapana, Glen Campbell, Martin Taylor, all learning by ear on the bandstand or in the studio. Hell, I've played with musicians like that my own self. Which doesn't mean that first-call players in NYC or LA aren't expected to be sight-readers, and probably better at it than some orchestral musicians (who, after all, get plenty of rehearsal time). If I could re-engineer my musical life, I would certainly include sight-reading skills, along with solfeggio and ear-training--and I'd insist that my parents own a piano. But at this end of my life, I'll limp along with a better-than-average musical memory and indulgent bandmates.

aha Jesuit! I knew something was up.;-)

yeah believe you me I’ve tried to argue with St Celia but she wasn’t convinced.

[blackcat]

[QUOTE=Christian Miller;1259636]

what cos south london isn’t in the late Middle Ages when pointy shoes were a thing? No idea what you may be insinuating. I’ll nick your catalytic converter, m8.

I wear my standard issue South london middle class dad outfit comprising a pair of brightly coloured ‘custom’ converse, red trousers and a blue diesel puffer jacket. We all wear precisely the same thing and we all have the same personality and same glazed, slack jawed visage.

Cool. Over here they are obligatoire avec shiny suits!

[voxo]

just played a solo by jimmy Raney notes and tabs...Interacted quicker with the tabs...Jimmy racing away...

[voxo]

Taylors chiselled shoes..thank god not winkle pickers....1960 teddy boy murder in Hounslow..winkle pickers used..both assailants executed....brothel creeper shoes an option