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Blackcat, for what it’s worth. It’s easier to play with others than by yourself. You get time to think when comping, someone else is carrying the rhythm if you take a beat during a solo and it becomes apparent very quickly that all that cliche stuff you avoided actually sounds pretty good. That’s my experience anyway.
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04-10-2023 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Most guitarists just want to play. They don't want to study scores, or engage in lengthy disquisition about the structures of songs or the nature of the genre. They don't want to embark on a life-long journey towards a state of perfection. They don't want to preserve the jazz guitar music of the 1950s by imitation or pastiche. They just want to play music more interesting than what they know. They want to learn riffs, melodies and changes. They want to exchange musical information with others.
Tab works for them.
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Well, so what. Originally Posted by Litterick
There are also educated musicians and they look at all this.
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False dichotomy lol. Originally Posted by Litterick
If you seriously want to ‘learn music and exchange information with others’ you’d surely think learning to be fluent in the most widely used system of notation would be both useful and of interest? Seeing as it gives you both access to the widest possible spectrum of western music from the Middle Ages to the most contemporary compositions and the ability to communicate your compositions to a wide variety of musicians.
Actually in my experience, people who play straightahead actually tend often to be more ear players than strong readers, and knowing a ton of standards is the thing.
Anyway, it’s a non-argument, and seems to me more a reaction against the messenger than the message… So, bear in mind, it’s not actually important that I’m saying it and it doesn’t really matter what I think; you can take it from anyone active in the field, most definitely including any contemporary jazz players. Sight reading is highly valued in that community because they are always playing new music often with little rehearsal.Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-11-2023 at 03:29 AM.
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Musicians are often in different situations.
I had the opportunity to play the guitar parts on the recording in the studio.
There were errors in the notation of the guitar part.
The arranger put a piano notation in my nose and told me to play it.
I was able to play it because I know the notation well.
...if I told the arranger where the tablature is, everyone would probably die laughing.
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to be honest I can imagine a sax player or pianist seeing this thread and just finding it hilarious. Typical guitarists! Originally Posted by kris
Musicians are often in different situations.
I had the opportunity to play the guitar parts on the recording in the studio.
There were errors in the notation of the guitar part.
The arranger put a piano notation in my nose and told me to play it.
I was able to play it because I know the notation well.
...if I told the arranger where the tablature is, everyone would probably die laughing.
no wonder we are so quick to tell drummer jokes..:-)
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.................................... most definitely including any contemporary jazz players. Sight reading is highly valued in that community because they are always playing new music often with little rehearsal.[/QUOTE]
Of course, they all went to 'Uni' (ugh) and spent the legendary 8 hours per day. How could it be otherwise? Absolutely nothing to do with aged/retired guys with a blues-rock background trying to clamber on board and spend maxime time focussed on the basics. Tab helps them I'm sure.
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[QUOTE=FattMusiek;1331
Would love to hear your feedback![/QUOTE]
So where is he now?!! What does he think of the rat's nest he has stirred up?!
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Often wondered who the jazz police really were - now we know!!! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Of course, they all went to 'Uni' (ugh) and spent the legendary 8 hours per day. How could it be otherwise? Absolutely nothing to do with aged/retired guys with a blues-rock background trying to clamber on board and spend maxime time focussed on the basics. Tab helps them I'm sure.[/QUOTE] Originally Posted by blackcat
if you are learning to play the instrument, tab can be helpful as I’ve said above. If you want to be a jazz musician playing with others tab is not helpful. It’s not an especially complicated point.
I didn’t go to music school btw.
im not demanding people learn to read, I’m outlining the value of it to a jazz player and debunking peoples bs excuses. Ooh it’s so hard! So many places to play a note! You don’t need it! Muh creativity!!! Ooh the jazz police!!!
ive heard them all …
It bores me when my 7 year old students do it. I’d rather they said a dinosaur ate their practice book or something.
say I don’t want to read cos I can’t be arsed and I’ve have a lot more respect frankly. Why can’t people say stuff like that?
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if you are learning to play the instrument, tab can be helpful as I’ve said above. If you want to be a jazz musician playing with others tab is not helpful. It’s not an especially complicated point. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I didn’t go to music school btw.
im not demanding people learn to read, I’m outlining the value of it to a jazz player and debunking peoples bs excuses. Ooh it’s so hard! So many places to play a note! You don’t need it! Muh creativity!!! Ooh the jazz police!!!
ive heard them all …
It bores me when my 7 year old students do it. I’d rather they said a dinosaur ate their practice book or something.
say I don’t want to read cos I can’t be arsed and I’ve have a lot more respect frankly. Why can’t people say stuff like that?[/QUOTE]
Lovely stuff Christian - HOW do you find the time? Aren't the schools open over there currently?!
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Lovely stuff Christian - HOW do you find the time? Aren't the schools open over there currently?![/QUOTE] Originally Posted by blackcat
Easter hols m8. Plus childcare. Makes me extra grumpy and insufferable.
Repeat after me ‘I don’t want to learn to read notation because I don’t want to and I’m happy doing what I’m doing and that’s as deep as it goes’ and I’ll leave everyone alone.
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Easter hols m8. Plus childcare. Makes me extra grumpy and insufferable. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Repeat after me ‘I don’t want to learn to read notation because I don’t want to and I’m happy doing what I’m doing and that’s as deep as it goes’ and I’ll leave everyone alone.[/QUOTE]
Nah, way to long. And still I ask, just where is the original OP in all this?!
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Nah, way too long. And still I ask, just where is the original OP in all this?![/QUOTE] Originally Posted by blackcat
I perhaps naively assume the OP’s question is the one to focus on.
I’m not even entirely sure what you or anyone else defending the use of tab here want to be told tbh. That gigging jazz players use tab? That learners dependent using tab to learn jazz are taking a good long term path towards becoming better musicians? That people are entitled to call themselves jazz players even though they lack the skills used by the community to make music (and yes there are plenty amateur players on JGO who are definitely able to do this stuff)?
if you are happy being a hobbyist I can’t see why any of this stuff would be important. If you are a beginner learning a Wes tune from tabs, why is this important?
Tbh I don’t think you want me to say this stuff either and you wouldn’t believe it if I did. I think you do in fact believe what I am saying.
While pretty much a fool, on some level I realise that this is all nothing to do with me, nor music, nor music education. It’s to do with people feeling bad about not doing the things they know deep down will help them to become better musicians - ear learning in particular but also learning to read - a reluctance to take the next step for fear it might be too much of a journey and time is against us. And that’s pretty understandable actually. Does it help to know the journey is endless anyway?
Anyway when presented with the type BS we find on this thread, most musicians would have the good sense to roll their eyes inwardly and bite their tongues.
So yes, where do I find the time? Bloody good question.
But wherever people are coming from, it’s really a straightforward practical question. Take it from Skip or Kris if you think I’m an arse. We’ve all been in the trenches. Tbh I’d defer to them on this because they’ve been at it longer. But as I say, I think you believe what I’m saying. That’s not issue.Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-11-2023 at 06:08 AM.
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Tbh I’d defer to them on this because they’ve been at it longer.[/QUOTE]
And that's the whole point surely - another generation. Newcomers of a given age may well expect to see both tab and notation in any learning text ( pretty well ) they come across and see it all as part and parcel of the same thing. I guess the question here is just why do people like Martin Taylor and 90% of Truefire and MyMusicMasterclass players automatically include both in their offerings? Is it just that they cannot bear the thought of losing punters who have come to accept it as the norm or can they not bear the thought of losing punters...........?
Thing is Christian, looks like your free time for this sort of stuff may decrease shortly. The Easter break starts on Monday 7 April and ends on Monday 21 April 2025.
Me, a wind up merchant - surely not!
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Blackcat...if you know the notes and can read music notation, what's the problem?
Someone who aspires to be a jazz musician would do well to know sheet music.
Someone who has learned to read tablature can also learn sheet music. It's not difficult.
If you want to go to jam sessions with guitar tabs, you can.
Just remember that Real Book with tabs will be very thick.
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no this is an entirely different point you’ve just pulled out of your arse, but sure Originally Posted by blackcat
Ok, so I don’t mean to upset the gravy train here, but … I mean you’ve answered it yourself. Money. This is a business. The money is in the hobbyists - obviously. Musicians are skint and there’s not so many well paid gigs as there used to be…- another generation. Newcomers of a given age may well expect to see both tab and notation in any learning text ( pretty well ) they come across and see it all as part and parcel of the same thing. I guess the question here is just why do people like Martin Taylor and 90% of Truefire and MyMusicMasterclass players automatically include both in their offerings? Is it just that they cannot bear the thought of losing punters who have come to accept it as the norm or can they not bear the thought of losing punters...........?
(I mean why do you think they are making these videos?)
Same reason on the micro scale I put tabs in my videos. I want a wide spectrum of people to watch them.
it’s not a diss on them (or me) I think mymusicmasterclass is cool, and good content, but watching a ton of them won’t make you a better player - I’ve tried that haha, didn’t work. You could easily spend a year working on stuff from one vid.
The business model of these sites assumes that people will spend more time watching. And it seems to work.
but if you want advice on what i think is going to help people actually become better musicians it won’t be watching hours of online video content. You can probably find a video somewhere where they say that….Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-11-2023 at 06:41 AM.
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Kris - Your last sentence there caps it all Originally Posted by kris
Blackcat...if you know the notes and can read music notation, what's the problem?
Someone who aspires to be a jazz musician would do well to know sheet music.
Someone who has learned to read tablature can also learn sheet music. It's not difficult.
If you want to go to jam sessions with guitar tabs, you can.
Just remember that Real Book with tabs will be very thick.
You have encapsulated here the entire concept - in just four concise lines. Bravo. Fits me perfectly. You deserve to have the very last word on this matter. BTW - always enjoy your playing.
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Brilliant - esp' the bit about my being naeve or otherwise Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Seriously, sums up the tuition 'industry' nicely and those involved ( or at least many of them ). Naturally would exclude those like Jens (Larsen), Tim Lerch et al and of course, your good self.
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And that's the whole point surely - another generation. Newcomers of a given age may well expect to see both tab and notation in any learning text ( pretty well ) they come across and see it all as part and parcel of the same thing. I guess the question here is just why do people like Martin Taylor and 90% of Truefire and MyMusicMasterclass players automatically include both in their offerings? Is it just that they cannot bear the thought of losing punters who have come to accept it as the norm or can they not bear the thought of losing punters...........? Originally Posted by blackcat
Thing is Christian, looks like your free time for this sort of stuff may decrease shortly. The Easter break starts on Monday 7 April and ends on Monday 21 April 2025.
Me, a wind up merchant - surely not![/QUOTE]
Education is the answer.
Life will verify what is more important tablature or knowledge of notation.
I can say about myself that I have been playing guitar for over 50 years and have never used guitar tablature.
With the development of the Internet and music softwares, tablature began to appear in large numbers.
I've been following this phenomenon for a long time.
Playing tablature - a great thing for quick learning.
Frank Gambale also has Guitar Pro files on his site for those who don't read or don't like sheet music.
But Frank knows the notation very well and uses it.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Get over yourself, Christian. I was making an argument from my experience and that of other guitarists. It is not about you. An opposing argument is not necessarily a personal attack on you. I do not waste time thinking of objections to needle you. I was trying to contribute to the discussion, but I can see that is a waste of time, because you have so little respect for my views, or anyone else who disagrees with you. You don't even take the trouble to think about what I wrote. I was not talking about professionals, clearly, but that is of no concern to you. It is a non-argument, because you set the terms of the argument to suit you.
Of course, you must always have the last word, and I sure you will. But I won't be reading it.
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I wouldn’t haha Originally Posted by blackcat
Brilliant - esp' the bit about my being naeve or otherwise Seriously, sums up the tuition 'industry' nicely and those involved ( or at least many of them ). Naturally would exclude those like Jens (Larsen), Tim Lerch et al and of course, your good self.
tbh I do question the ROI. but you know, I like the sound of my own voice which is kind of a prerequisite for YouTube.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
that’s not true. I have a lot of respect for Jonah’s views and he frequently disagrees with me haha
The truth is that there are arguments I disagree with that I respect, and others that I disagree with that I don’t. Not every argument deserves respect; some deserve to be pulled apart. Otoh We all make excuses and BS rationalisations sometimes, I don’t think someone’s a bad person for doing it. But I don’t respect it even when I do it! Which is often.
But this is as I say, not about me. Go and find someone YOU respect and ask them. Presumably you are not concerned with my validation.
I wasn’t talking about professionals either. I’d tell anyone the same who is interested in playing in jazz bands and ensembles. Getting conversant with staff notation (and of course chord symbols) is going to make a huge difference to your ability to function in those settings. You don’t have to be a gun reader.You don't even take the trouble to think about what I wrote. I was not talking about professionals, clearly, but that is of no concern to you. It is a non-argument, because you set the terms of the argument to suit you.
I’d also tell anyone who is serious about becoming a better player to wean themselves off the tab. Not everyone is on that mission, fine, but if you are, there it is. Take it or leave it … .
Also - I think this is important to restate given the membership of the forum. Don’t get too hung up about the amateur/pro thing - I try to be careful not to couch it in those terms myself. There’s some seriously capable amateurs on here. The distinction is based on whether or not you have decided to earn income from it and there’s many reasons why one might choose not to. Amateur is not a descriptor of ability. (Pro neither tbh haha)
Of course, you must always have the last word, and I sure you will. But I won't be reading it.
maybe the last word is less for you, but more to challenge what I think is bad information for others who might be reading. I know I often lurk on other sites.Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-11-2023 at 07:14 AM.
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I know amateurs who really like to read from notes .... another matter is whether they do it properly.
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And Kris, I know professionals who read every dot and grace note - and play badly. Not sure where that takes us? Originally Posted by kris
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