How frowned upon is using guitar tablature?

[Christian Miller]

Taylors chiselled shoes..thank god not winkle pickers....1960 teddy boy murder in Hounslow..winkle pickers used..both assailants executed....brothel creeper shoes an option

Not quite sure what this means, but I agree.

[mr. beaumont]

just played a solo by jimmy Raney notes and tabs...Interacted quicker with the tabs...Jimmy racing away...

I suppose if the goal was just to get the fingers in the exact places, tablature could probably be superior...

[SedanDelivery2022]

Has anyone mentioned that tablature has a long history? This surprised me to learn in music history class last year. I figured it was a modern invention. But tablature (not only for stringed instruments but for organ) was widely used before mensural notation becamse standardized. Here's some Italian lute tablature from the 16th century.

[Christian Miller]

Has anyone mentioned that tablature has a long history? This surprised me to learn in music history class last year. I figured it was a modern invention. But tablature (not only for stringed instruments but for organ) was widely used before mensural notation becamse standardized. Here's some Italian lute tablature from the 16th century.

yeah, it has been mentioned several times. What do you mean you haven’t waxed through the entirety of this dumpster fire thread? ;-)

Theres some lutenists on the forum btw, inc Rob and Jonah.

I played lute badly for a little while and it was rather nice playing through the old tabs. (Can’t live without machine heads though.) They have indications of note duration though which are like staff notation.

I attended a workshop where they said that amateur lutenists should really work on continuo - which of course means fluently reading bass clef and figured bass. So …. Yeah. A lutenists primary job beyond playing solo pieces and written out lute songs is playing rhythm section in a band and reading from the equivalents of band charts. So, same deal…

So I was under the impression that the lute with its ‘lascivious pleasing’ was widely played by amateurs back in the day as well as virtuoso professionals like Dowland, Kapsberger, Weiss etc.

funny how things don’t change

[docsteve]

With the amateurs being the local nobility from Henry VIII down.

Music was part of elementary education for the nobility. That’s why there are so many tablatures around, and they were all directed at these amateurs.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

[RLetson]

With the amateurs being the local nobility from Henry VIII down.

Music was part of elementary education for the nobility. That’s why there are so many tablatures around, and they were all directed at these amateurs.

Well, maybe not entirely. Standard notation evolved from a number of earlier systems, and at the height of the lute's popularity, tablature was the standard notation. In fact, the some of the earliest printed music was lute tablature (very early 16th century). As for the target audience, it certainly would have included well-to-do amateurs, but the quality and sophistication of, say, Dowland's work suggests a pretty high level of player, and I suspect that other professionals might want to add Dowland's work to their performing repertories, too. I suppose a professional musician got his training primarily via direct interaction with a master (often, I suspect, his father), but any written-down compositions would still have been preserved in tablature, at least until the later 17th century, when modern notation emerged.

None of which means much for jazz players, but it does put tablature into historical (and practical) context.

[Christian Miller]

Well, maybe not entirely. Standard notation evolved from a number of earlier systems, and at the height of the lute's popularity, tablature was the standard notation. In fact, the some of the earliest printed music was lute tablature (very early 16th century). As for the target audience, it certainly would have included well-to-do amateurs, but the quality and sophistication of, say, Dowland's work suggests a pretty high level of player, and I suspect that other professionals might want to add Dowland's work to their performing repertories, too. I suppose a professional musician got his training primarily via direct interaction with a master (often, I suspect, his father), but any written-down compositions would still have been preserved in tablature, at least until the later 17th century, when modern notation emerged.

None of which means much for jazz players, but it does put tablature into historical (and practical) context.

OTOH Thomas Campion is pretty basic.

I think there was a wide range of players.

The way you give the timeline of notation makes it sound a little like it was invented in totality in 1684 or something and before we were using other systems like tab of neumes or whatever, im sure that’s not what you mean, rather that what we have today is fundamentally unchanged since the late 17th century and recognisable as modern notation.

Irrc there was a lot of changes to the way rhythm was notated up to the 17th century but notation of pitch was similar to today during Dowland’s era (even modern editions of things like Monteverdi have some funky stuff - I remember time signatures like 3/1 with half notes being the equivalent of eighth notes and quarter notes being like sixteenths. Can take a minute to get your head around.)

but looking at an original copy of Dowland’s songs, the pitches in the cantus part are legible and the lack of regular bar lines while strange to the modern reader makes absolute sense for the rhythm of renaissance music. I don’t think it’s too crazy different…. and a single performer might well be reading the cantus and playing the lute tab as well.

re the amateur, dowlands song books sold well, and I think I remember reading they were popular with amateurs. I suspect the man himself improvised and embellished on his songs far beyond what we see in print

Anyway….

[kris]

Nice tablature but not clear.

[Christian Miller]

Nice tablature but not clear.

sorry pretty lo res facsimile

[RLetson]

I didn't want to get too far into the weeds on the evolution of notation or the emergence of something a modern eye would recognize--and in any case, my actual areas of competence are in literature of the period rather than the other arts. Though I do find the sociology of audiences in all the arts really fascinating, especially as signalled by material production and distribution. (Shakespeare studies has been all over that for decades.) Those part-books laid out so that four singers could stand around a table and read are really suggestive of the musical-social environment. (I can't find an image of those quartered-layout scores on line--am I misremembering?)

[pauln]

"a little like it was invented in totality in 1684 or something"

Interesting date, JS Bach was born in March of 1685;
he was invented or conceived not in totality in 1684.

[Christian Miller]

I didn't want to get too far into the weeds on the evolution of notation or the emergence of something a modern eye would recognize--and in any case, my actual areas of competence are in literature of the period rather than the other arts. Though I do find the sociology of audiences in all the arts really fascinating, especially as signalled by material production and distribution. (Shakespeare studies has been all over that for decades.) Those part-books laid out so that four singers could stand around a table and read are really suggestive of the musical-social environment. (I can't find an image of those quartered-layout scores on line--am I misremembering?)

This



I think I'd be fine with this. Very clever actually, lute and cantus on the first page, the other parts in different orientations on the next. Think it'd be OK to read, there's even some bar lines (it's in 3/2). So maybe two people reading from the main side of the table (cantus/lute and tenor), one on the opposite (altus) and one on the side (bassus).

Books were expensive... But yeah it suggests social, convivial music making to me.

EDIT: the biggest stumbling block might be the clefs, of which there are four different ones (soprano, alto, tenor and bass if I'm not mistaken), unlike the other one I posted which was in G clef (similar to treble). Take the cantus for instance - IIRC the illuminated letter tells us it's the C clef, and the little brackets thing tells us the bottom line is C, so therefore the first note is D, suggesting a dorian mode - which checks out (I think most familiar with Dowland will know this tune). Reading funny clefs is not something most modern musicians - especially jazzers - learn (I gave a trombonist music in the tenor clef one time cos that's what it said in my instrumentation textbooks, and was instructed in no uncertain terms that ledger lines would be very much preferred thank you very much), though the solfeggio guys says it's actually easy if you do it the way they did it....

So the long and short of it is - here's some music in five parts with what happens to be tab part, and four vocal parts in different clefs, only one of which has bar lines. Got it? I'll count you in!

A bit more demanding than Trivial Pursuit.

[docsteve]

... As for the target audience, it certainly would have included well-to-do amateurs, but the quality and sophistication of, say, Dowland's work suggests a pretty high level of player, and I suspect that other professionals might want to add Dowland's work to their performing repertories, too. I suppose a professional musician got his training primarily via direct interaction with a master (often, I suspect, his father), but any written-down compositions would still have been preserved in tablature, at least until the later 17th century, when modern notation emerged.

None of which means much for jazz players, but it does put tablature into historical (and practical) context.

I love Dowland's music, but while some of it is technically demanding, it is by no means out of reach of an ambitious amateur (i.e. myself). In fact, a lot of classical repertoire is. Only when highly trained virtuosi came onto the scene, there was a need for compositions to show off their virtuosity - think Liszt, for example. (I'm not saying it isn't great music, bt it's beyond the reach of amateurs.)


As to jazz music, Dizzy says something in his autobiography that only with the advent of bebop jazz became the reserve of trained professionals. Of course, he and Bird worked hard to put their stuff out of reach.

As far as musicality and interpretation is concerned - I think that both with Renaissance and classic jazz, people simply grew up within that tradition. They knew how the music went and didn't have to study it as we do.

[grahambop]

Here’s a group who give informal concerts using those table books:

Dowland’s Table | Les Canards Chantants

[Christian Miller]

I love Dowland's music, but while some of it is technically demanding, it is by no means out of reach of an ambitious amateur (i.e. myself). In fact, a lot of classical repertoire is. Only when highly trained virtuosi came onto the scene, there was a need for compositions to show off their virtuosity - think Liszt, for example. (I'm not saying it isn't great music, bt it's beyond the reach of amateurs.)

Yeah Might be easier on lute as well. I can't remember to be honest, need to ask Rob or maybe Jonah.

I don't find the song accomps particularly hard to play on the guitar, although some of the fantasies can be a little tricky.

As far as musicality and interpretation is concerned - I think that both with Renaissance and classic jazz, people simply grew up within that tradition. They knew how the music went and didn't have to study it as we do.

Now what does that remind me of? ......Nope it's gone

Anyway I always got told of for accenting the upbeats on the lute/

[RLetson]

The pro-am world is interesting. The group I sit in with is made up of skilled players with day jobs--though one of those day jobs is professor in a university music department (percussion). I'm the only one with zero formal academic training and/or pro-level experience--but then, I'm only sitting in. The keyboardist was a cocktail-hour pianist who decided that physics was going to provide a better living. The bass and trumpet guys have music degrees but work in medical IT. The sax player is also medical IT--but he's a retired Air Force bands veteran. (All the players from that world I've encountered have been formidable musicians.) The guitarist (who also has university music training) runs a small business and gigs in tribute bands (next job: a CSN&Y concert series).

I think I might be a mascot.

[rpjazzguitar]

The pro-am world is interesting. The group I sit in with is made up of skilled players with day jobs--though one of those day jobs is professor in a university music department (percussion). I'm the only one with zero formal academic training and/or pro-level experience--but then, I'm only sitting in. The keyboardist was a cocktail-hour pianist who decided that physics was going to provide a better living. The bass and trumpet guys have music degrees but work in medical IT. The sax player is also medical IT--but he's a retired Air Force bands veteran. (All the players from that world I've encountered have been formidable musicians.) The guitarist (who also has university music training) runs a small business and gigs in tribute bands (next job: a CSN&Y concert series).

I think I might be a mascot.

The bands I play in mix amateurs with pros. A few of the top pros in the area play in these groups, although there are often subs for them.

Given how difficult it is to make a living as a musician, some terrific players have other jobs.

Getting called for gigs remains a meritocracy for the most part. If you can play, the pros don't seem to hold your day job against you.

[AndyV]

Over centuries, there have been many systems that attempted to diagram the musical process. Standard notation is one of the most robust but tablature has its place. As pointed out above, much of the lute repertoire exists in tab because that was the prevalent system at the time. In India, an entirely different system was in use and worked well. All of this is trying to dance about architecture - i.e. describe an aural process visually. I say, what goes into your and the listeners ears is the end game and what ever gets you there is good and valid. If you need to communicate the most amount of info to another musician immersed in Western culture, than standard notation may be your best bet but it doesn't diminish the value of other systems, IMHO.

[Lionelsax]

I remember a conversation between my sax teacher and his pupil :

- Sir, I'm fed up with clarinet.
- What's happening ?
- It's too difficult and I have to read scores.
- You play well, you read well.
- I want an easier instrument, something that doesn't need effort to play.
- I know an instrument like that, everyone can play it.
- I want to know, tell me, tell me !
- A stereo !

I think tabs in Renaissance and Baroque were like the stereo, it was the easiest way to share music when nobody was there to play the piece.
The instrument was there but not the musician.

Tab = Record

[kris]

is it a tab for clarinet?

[blackcat]

Comforting to know that you lot are still all here!

[Tal_175]

Tabs lower the entry barrier to playing guitar for beginners. It's a wonderful thing in that respect.

[Christian Miller]

I remember a conversation between my sax teacher and his pupil :

- Sir, I'm fed up with clarinet.
- What's happening ?
- It's too difficult and I have to read scores.
- You play well, you read well.
- I want an easier instrument, something that doesn't need effort to play.
- I know an instrument like that, everyone can play it.
- I want to know, tell me, tell me !
- A stereo !

I think tabs in Renaissance and Baroque were like the stereo, it was the easiest way to share music when nobody was there to play the piece.
The instrument was there but not the musician.

Tab = Record

well if the dowland books are anything to go by (presumably they are) people seemed up for reading vocal parts from multiple clefs as well as lute music from tab, so while I think you are right, I also think the level of musical literacy of educated (posh) people was pretty good. Among upper class women music was an accomplishment (a sign of good breeding) for instance.

The lower classes had oral traditions of music. I don’t think tabs were a part of that. Remember books were still expensive and basic literacy was far from universal. Otoh the lute was the instrument of kings.

[Christian Miller]

Over centuries, there have been many systems that attempted to diagram the musical process. Standard notation is one of the most robust but tablature has its place. As pointed out above, much of the lute repertoire exists in tab because that was the prevalent system at the time. In India, an entirely different system was in use and worked well. All of this is trying to dance about architecture - i.e. describe an aural process visually. I say, what goes into your and the listeners ears is the end game and what ever gets you there is good and valid. If you need to communicate the most amount of info to another musician immersed in Western culture, than standard notation may be your best bet but it doesn't diminish the value of other systems, IMHO.

it may be more positive to focus on what it is exactly that tab and notation do different.

- tab diagrams the guitar
- notation represents the music in more abstract terms, which can be interpreted on different instruments

From this it should presumably be obvious that one doesn’t replace the other. Otoh pretty much everything I have said follows from that, it’s not really very contentious if one focuses on what each system actually does.

- Jazz ensembles usually have different instruments playing together so tab is rare. - - - Guitar lessons and tutorials discuss the guitar so therefore tab is common.
etc

I think if you want to build your musical skills it’s worth bearing in mind what a musical activity is involving. Reading a solo from tab doesn’t work your ears or your note reading skills for instance, but may help with your technical ability to play. Keep that in mind and I think it’s all good actually.

[Lionelsax]

well if the dowland books are anything to go by (presumably they are) people seemed up for reading vocal parts from multiple clefs as well as tab, so while I think you are right, I also think the level of musical literacy of educated (posh) people was pretty good. Among upper class women music was an accomplishment (a sign of good breeding) for instance.

The lower classes had oral traditions of music. I don’t think tabs were a part of that. Remember books were expensive even after printing and basic literacy was far from universal. Otoh the lute was the instrument of kings.

Well, about the lute, the viola da gamba were for amateurs (nobles / consorts) and instruments from the violin family were for professionals.
The French Revolution definitely killed all the baroque heritage.
They also modified bass viola da gamba into upright bass (what I read about it).
Yes, it was oral, during the Classical area, they remained some orality (cadences in a classical concerto : improvisation).
With Romanticism it had been another story.

Our ancestors could sing millions of songs, what about us ? We listen to a record and forget it.