How would you name these voicings?

[rpjazzguitar]

It’s not an add 4 though is it? The fourth is replacing the 5th effectively.
Tapatalk

A problem with stacking 4ths is how many? The chord I wanted has 4 notes. D G C F. I don't want a Bb on top. That renders D4 imperfect as a chord symbol.

Dm11 has the right notes, but I want the G in the middle not on top. It's a 4th,, not an 11th, and they sound very different to me.
When I see Dm11, I think x53553 and some other voicings with a G on top.

[Christian Miller]

Oh, that's not a compliment? All this time I thought it was! This changes my opinion of so & so.

Quite right. Total common tone diminished that guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

Dm11 has the right notes, but I want the G in the middle not on top. It's a 4th,, not an 11th, and they sound very different to me.
When I see Dm11, I think x53553 and some other voicings with a G on top.

There are a few ways to voice a Dm11 with the G note in the middle and not on top. Your Dm74 symbol does not dictate how the notes should be arranged, it's chord synonym, e.g., G7sus/D, does a better job of that.

[rpjazzguitar]

There are a few ways to voice a Dm11 with the G note in the middle and not on top. Your Dm74 symbol does not dictate how the notes should be arranged, it's chord synonym, e.g., G7sus/D, does a better job of that.

I get what you're saying.

But doesn't G7sus/D imply that the chord is functioning as a dominant and headed to Cmajor? Does that matter?

The way I've been using that 4th stack is more as a variant on a tonic minor sound.

Either way, the bassist is going to play a D, presumably, as his first note in that bar.

But what will be his second note? In G7sus/D, maybe the bassist plays a G next. I don't see any reason to think he'd play an A.

But, for Dm74 maybe the bassist plays an A next. And, that's closer to what I want to hear because I'm thinking tonic minor.

[Bob_Ross]

When I see Dm11, I think x53553 ...

Thread Drift, a pure execution question: Are you using your first finger to barre the notes on the 3rd fret?

I must confess, I've never stumbled upon that particular voicing for a Dm11. I've used x5x563, x53533, and a few others farther up the neck, for ~40 years...but never x53553.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=Bob_Ross;1428956]Thread Drift, a pure execution question: Are you using your first finger to barre the notes on the 3rd fret?

I must confess, I've never stumbled upon that particular voicing for a Dm11. I've used x5x563, x53533, and a few others farther up the neck, for ~40 years...but never x53553.[/QUOTE

Index finger barre is how I play it.

[Mick-7]

But doesn't G7sus/D imply that the chord is functioning as a dominant and headed to Cmajor? Does that matter?

I suppose it could matter, depending on the progression. It could also be named Bbmaj13/D (the 7th, A, could be added on top, 5th fret). It's a Bb6/9 without the 7th but a double forward slash would be ackward: Bb6/9/D. But most lead sheets do not specify the chords bass notes.

Would you call this a Dm74? Same notes as your Dm74 chord on the 5th fret but with the 5th (A) added.

F6/9 or G9sus | x-8-7-7-7-8-8 |

There are many possible variations of this chord, e.g., use open strings:

Dm11 | x-3-3-0-3-0 |

Dm11 | x-0-3-0-3-0 | - etc.

I've used x5x563, x53533, and a few others farther up the neck, for ~40 years... but never x53553.

I'm shocked to hear that, Bob, you just haven't lived.

[rpjazzguitar]

I suppose it could matter, depending on the progression. It could also be named Bbmaj13/D (the 7th, A, could be added on top, 5th fret). It's a Bb6/9 without the 7th but a double forward slash would be ackward: Bb6/9/D. But most lead sheets do not specify the chords bass notes.

Would you call this a Dm74? Same notes as your Dm74 chord on the 5th fret but with the 5th (A) added.

F6/9 or G9sus | x-8-7-7-7-8-8 |

There are many possible variations of this chord, e.g., use open strings:

Dm11 | x-3-3-0-3-0 |

Dm11 | x-0-3-0-3-0 | - etc.



I'm shocked to hear that, Bob, you just haven't lived.

You're inducing me to think about this more carefully. For Dm74 I'm looking for a D in the bass, and the b7th higher than the 4th. And, it needs a b3 somewhere to make it minor.

But, what about the 5th? Do I write Dm74(no5)? I'd rather not. If I write D4 there's that issue of when to stop stacking 4ths.

So, where I've ended up so far is a kluge. I'm going to have to include an explanation for whatever name I use. Best to keep the explanation simple, easy to use and easy to decode in different keys. I need to use a symbol a horn player can use to craft a solo. Dm74 works for my needs even though it isn't grounded well in theory.

If I were writing separate charts for each instrument, I might consider writing out the notes on a staff for the chord instruments, (although I'd probably still want a chord name to make the chart easier to read) and Dm11 for the horns.

[Danil]

Maybe just call it D444 already and direct those who complain to this thread

[rpjazzguitar]

Maybe just call it D444 already and direct those who complain to this thread

Didn't figured bass work something like that?

Also, I understand that that's the way Hermeto Pascoal wrote chord symbols.

[rpjazzguitar]

You do realize that most musicians don't micro-manage their band members by telling them exactly how to voice their chords and what bass notes they should play?

It varies. For example, a bassist might not want somebody to tell him, verbally, what to play on a standard. But, most bassists are happy to read a bass line on a chart of a new composition. In fact, I can't think of an exception over many years, even though the bassist may diverge from the written line eventually. Fine with me -- the bassist usually comes up with an improvement.

I probably wouldn't do it, verbally, on somebody else's material, but when I'm the composer or arranger I know the sound I'm going for and I want it on the chart so it can be reproduced. I try to get it all in the chart. My bandmates are generally fully on-board. And, I reciprocate, trying to play what they want on their tunes.

The question we've been kicking around here is how to put certain sounds on paper.

We've also touched on what you can expect players to do given what you choose to put on the page.

[Bob_Ross]

I'm shocked to hear that, Bob, you just haven't lived.

Fair assessment
:::checks pulse:::
Yeah, you could be right.

[Mick-7]

For Dm74 I'm looking for a D in the bass, and the b7th higher than the 4th. And, it needs a b3 somewhere to make it minor.

I just don't see why you want to insist on naming your 4th chords by their tonic note, it's almost irrelevant with these voicings because of their ambiguous sound. Most important is the melody note and how you harmonize it. And on the guitar, you can find similar chord voicings up and down the fingerboard.

For example [sticking to the middle strings]:

| x-10-10-10-10-x | > | x-8-7-7-8-x | > | x-5-5-5-6-x |

[rpjazzguitar]

I just don't see why you want to insist on naming your 4th chords by their tonic note, it's almost irrelevant with these voicings because of their ambiguous sound. Most important is the melody note and how you harmonize it. And on the guitar, you can find similar chord voicings up and down the fingerboard.

For example [sticking to the middle strings]:

| x-10-10-10-10-x | > | x-8-7-7 I get the -8-x | > | x-5-5-5-6-x |

I get the bass note(s) I want by putting the root in the chord name. Also, the various voicings don't sound the same to me. Hearing the wrong one approaches being grating.

[Mick-7]

o.k., but the strong point of 4th chords is that they are, as I said earlier, ambiguous sounding and thus lend themselves to being played in series, a la McCoy Tyner, i.e., using them in a modal rather than functional harmony fashion.

[rpjazzguitar]

o.k., but the strong point of 4th chords is that they are, as I said earlier, ambiguous sounding and thus lend themselves to being played in series, a la McCoy Tyner, i.e., using them in a modal rather than functional harmony fashion.

I appreciate that, but in this case I know exactly what I want to hear even if I don't know what to call it.

[Christian Miller]

I think McCoy's approach was more pentatonic than septatonic modal.

[Christian Miller]

Didn't figured bass work something like that?

Also, I understand that that's the way Hermeto Pascoal wrote chord symbols.

Yeah it does... We'd write the diatonic intervals from the bass. So a Dm so what voicing in a null key signature would be a D bass with the numbers 10 7 4 written underneath.

I think Steve Coleman also used a chromatic variant of this approach.

When you are no longer writing trad tertian harmony and want to specify voicing types without notating everything in dots, you have to come with an alternative system.

Figured bass systems are specific about the intervals.

(Although, authentic historic figured basses and not modern editions make assumptions of the people interpreting them, which is interesting. Often stuff gets missed out that you would expect to be included - a bit like chord symbols I suppose.)

[pauln]

I make up my own chords by ear and don't worry about the names, but this is an interesting thread... With that said, don't the "rules" indicate that naming in a chord be with respect to the root assignment that defines which octave is the "chord tone octave"?

One of the octaves contains the "chord tones" (from root (first) to seventh)
One octave contains the extensions (ninth to thirteenth)
One octave contains pitches below the root of the chord tones octave

Take this chord - 5x56xx A G C#

One perspective would be to see the A and G within a chord tone octave and see the C# as in the extension octave... First, seventh, tenth.

Another perspective would be to see the C# as the major third within a chord tone octave and the A and G in a sub-octave (bass octave).

So three octaves with two ways to interpret pitch placement...

[bass octave] null
[chord tone octave] A root "first"
[chord tone octave] G "seventh"
[extension octave] C# "tenth"

[bass octave] A
[bass octave] G
[chord tone octave] un-sounded A as root "first"
[chord tone octave] C# "major third"
[extension octave] null

But nobody plays this chord and does not think of the C# as the major third, yet to do so places the G out of the chord scale octave where it would be called the seventh.
This happens all the time when the seventh replaces the root under a chord - but if it is still a seventh, then the chord tone octave assignment shifts down and all the former "chord tones" above it then become promoted to extensions?

I chose that chord because a lot of guitar chord form families use that structure; some of them actually spanning all three octaves where crystallizing chord tone octave assignment can cause "forced errors" in naming chords.







Now name the octaves as