How would you name these voicings?

[rpjazzguitar]

Sequence of chords in an arrangement:

x8889x
x7778x
x5556x

4x345x
2x123x

The first three are the same voicing. Stack of fourths. I could name them F4 E4 D4. I went with Fm74 which is something you see in Brazilian charts occasionally, and the tune is a Baiao. Neither one is as instantly and easily communicative as I'd like.

What about the next two? I think of them as G13/Ab and F13/Gb, but those names imply the inclusion of notes I don't want. Abo(b13)?

Ideas? I know I can write the notes out on a stem, but I'd like to have the best possible chord name too.

[Mick-7]

The name I give a chord will depend on its key and function.

In this instance, for your first chord on the 8th fret, in Db major or Bb minor, we'd have:

Db6/9 (I maj chord) or Fm11 (iii chord) , Gbmaj13 (IV chord), Bb7sus (VI/vi sus chord).

With the note C (8th fret) on top, they become: DbMaj13, Fmll (still), Gbmaj13#11, Bb9sus

[Tal_175]

4x345x

This comes from the G dominant diminished scale. The presence of b9 and 13 implies the diminished flavor of dominant where as b13 would imply the augmented flavor of dominant (due to the imbedded augmented triad). It's possible to hear every altered dominant as belonging to one of these two types.

[Mick-7]

This comes from the G dominant diminished scale. The presence of b9 and 13 implies the diminished flavor of dominant where as b13 would imply the augmented flavor of dominant (due to the imbedded augmented triad). It's possible to hear every altered dominant as belonging to one of these two types.

That chord ( 4x345x ) is just the common (Db)7#9 chord form, but with the 5th (Ab) rather than root (Db) in the bass.

[Bob_Ross]

I know I can write the notes out on a stem, but I'd like to have the best possible chord name too.

If you have a specific voicing in mind, there is no "chord name" that will guarantee the desired results 100% of the time. That's not what chord names are for. Trying to force a nomenclature that was designed to provide simple shorthand and provide the performer with freedom/options into yielding specificity is a fool's errand.

[rpjazzguitar]

If you have a specific voicing in mind, there is no "chord name" that will guarantee the desired results 100% of the time. .

Right. Not 100%.

What chord name yields the highest probability of getting good results?

[rpjazzguitar]

That chord ( 4x345x ) is just the common (Db)7#9 chord form, but with the 5th (Ab) rather than root (Db) in the bass.

So, accordingly, Db7#9/Ab? As a guitarist, if I saw that I'd be likely to play Ab F B E at the third fret (referring to the index finger on the F). Which is the voicing I hear.

The pianist might think Db F Ab B E all over an Ab. The Db sounds good in context, so that works!

The bassist sees the Ab after the slash and plays the right note.

Thanks. That was pretty obvious -- after you pointed it out. <g>

[Bob_Ross]

Right. Not 100%.

What chord name yields the highest probability of getting good results?

The answer to that is, of course, directly proportional to how common the voicing you seek is.

You want to hear the root, major third, and dominant 7th in some combination? Writing "N7" (or "Ndom7") will get you there 99.9% of the time.

You want to hear a stack of perfect 4ths...or a stack of dominant 7ths...or an all-interval tetrachord...or [insert literally any simultaneity that is offbeat enough that it prompts otherwise sane musicians to create a thread on an internet forum about "How would you name this voicing?"] and all bets are off.

Again, that's why "chord names" aren't always the right tool for the job. As soon as the text string that you write requires more thought/debate/discussion/head-scratching than simply writing out the desired voicing in standard notation, you've stopped using chord names for what they were designed to do. If the chord name isn't a time-saver, it's a time-waster.

[ragman1]

rp -

Personally, I wouldn't try to answer your question without knowing a lot more about these chords and the score they come from. Can you answer these questions?

What's -

the key
tempo
style (swing, bossa)
melody
and what comes before and after the chords.


Your chords aren't difficult, one can name them easily, but whether the names are right in context is another matter. Even if we got it right how would we know it was right?

So I'd want to see the entire score. And, if previous experience is anything to go by, you'll shy at telling us that for some reason or other.

So I'm tempted to call them John, Paul, George and Ringo. And Eric.

[rpjazzguitar]

rp -

Personally, I wouldn't try to answer your question without knowing a lot more about these chords and the score they come from. Can you answer these questions?

What's -

the key
tempo
style (swing, bossa)
melody
and what comes before and after the chords.


Your chords aren't difficult, one can name them easily, but whether the names are right in context is another matter. Even if we got it right how would we know it was right?

So I'd want to see the entire score. And, if previous experience is anything to go by, you'll shy at telling us that for some reason or other.

So I'm tempted to call them John, Paul, George and Ringo. And Eric.

It's a reharm of part of the bridge of Blue Skies, played at 200 in 4/4 to a baiao rhythm. Key of C. The bar before is C6 Em74. Bars after are a ii V i in Am,

[ragman1]

It's a reharm of part of the bridge of Blue Skies, played at 200 in 4/4 to a baiao rhythm. Key of C. The bar before is C6 Em74. Bars after are a ii V i in Am,

Thanks.

Well, in C I'd probably say

Fm11
Em11
Dm11

G13b9
F13b9

Although a lot of people don't like that 13b9 idea. So it could be Db7#9/Ab and Cb7#9/Gb but that's a pain in the ass. Also a lot of people would treat those two chords as diminished sounds despite their dominant appearance.

So I'd say call them the simplest thing as long as everyone understands what's happening. The audience won't care.

[Mick-7]

Well, in C I'd probably say
G13b9
F13b9

Although a lot of people don't like that 13b9 idea.

It's uncommon to name it a 7b9 chord if the b9th is in the bass and not a product of voice-leading (say a descending chromatic bass line).

But why not just go C#7#9 > B7#9 there to continue the descending bass line of F > E > D > C#7#9 > B7#9 or maybe B7#9/F#.

[ragman1]

It's uncommon to name it a 7b9 chord if the b9th is in the bass

I know, this is why it's often treated like a dim chord, i.e. Abo plus the E note on top. But it's not usual to write it like that.

There's a Bossa site hosted by Brazilians who write it G13/-9. That's quite a clever idea.

[Christian Miller]

Video on the subject (covers both inverted and root position 13b9 chords.)

As for the inverted example, they are most often named, for example C13b9/Db in charts.

I would say the most natural source of the chord is the major key with a lowered 6th - which might be Harmonic Major or Maj6-diminished depending on your inclination.

[Christian Miller]

In the bIIIo7/#IIo7 position in the key it's most often a bIIIo7/#IIo7 diminished seventh with an accented upper diatonic neighbour in the top voice, almost always the 7th of the key. In most situations it resolves down a step into a diminished. In this case, the chord symbol is simply given as dim7. In these cases my go to grip would be a dim 7 shell voicing with a b13 on top
(like 4 x 3 4 5, x 4 x 3 5 5 etc.)

For example:

All the Things You Are (Ab, so G is the 7th of the key)

Tea For Two (same key)


Pennies from Heaven doesn't actually resolve the note on the chord at all. It's still labelled as o7. (C, so B is the 7th of the key)


How Insensitive/Insenatez takes this further - the funny note A is prepared as a chord tone of the first chord (the 5th), remains dissonant on the C# diminished, and then just carries through into the next chords (Cm6 and G7/B) which itself is dissonant, and then stays on A over the G7/B chord. The melody here is more like an embellished pedal tone. It only truly resolves on the final chord.

Probably Chopin does this sort of thing too, but I'd need to look into it.

I interpret this part of the tune as being in the temporary key of Bb major. The A is then the 7th of the key.


Note that it is still labelled as a C#o7.

Very common move anyway.

[Christian Miller]

The first three are the same voicing. Stack of fourths. I could name them F4 E4 D4. I went with Fm74

I like that and might use that. It's clearer as to the modality than just writing '4' and more helpful to the musician reading the chart for the first time especially in non functional changes. You could do a little note to explain on the chart.

There's a real difference between a m11 which is most commonly used as a sub for a dominant 7th with a root in the melody (II-V for V), and the quartal structure you find in tunes like So What and Cantaloupe Island. And it's so common it really makes sense to have a different chord symbol rather than have to write it out in notation every time.

Also, in this context it IS a fourth and not an eleventh. I know a lot of jazzers call any even numbered interval by its compound name (chord scale theory I think - 9th=2nd etc), but for chord construction I think it makes sense to give the correct interval as much as possible, if voicing is a concern.

[joe2758]

Video on the subject (covers both inverted and root position 13b9 chords.)

As for the inverted example, they are most often named, for example C13b9/Db in charts.

I would say the most natural source of the chord is the major key with a lowered 6th - which might be Harmonic Major or Maj6-diminished depending on your inclination.

put a picture of you sprinkling spices onto a guitar for the thumbnail

[ragman1]

There's a real difference between a m11 which is most commonly used as a sub for a dominant 7th with a root in the melody (II-V for V), and the quartal structure you find in tunes like So What and Cantaloupe Island. And it's so common it really makes sense to have a different chord symbol rather than have to write it out in notation every time.

Also, in this context it IS a fourth and not an eleventh. I know a lot of jazzers call any even numbered interval by its compound name (chord scale theory I think - 9th=2nd etc), but for chord construction I think it makes sense to give the correct interval as much as possible, if voicing is a concern.

Ah! I thought when I was writing Fm11 that this would come up. Most people don't like the m11 name because it's not specifically described as a quartal chord.

Unfortunately there's no one single accepted name for the So What chord except the So What chord. So I'd go back to what I said before. Decide what you want to call it and tell the whole band so there's no misunderstanding. Or write 'So What chord' on it. Or SW. Or Q. Or Q4. Or Mickey Mouse.

It doesn't matter so long as it's perfectly clear to everybody what that sound should be.

[rpjazzguitar]

I appreciate the discussion. A lot of good points and ideas.

I decided to go with m74. That's a chord symbol I see in Brazilian charts. So, for Fm74, I'd play F Bb Eb Ab.

For the other grip (4x345x -- Ab F B E) I like Db7#9/Ab. That chord symbol equates to Db F Ab B E. There's no Db in the grip I like, but if I add it, the chord still sounds right to my ear (this requires use of the left thumb, which I can't do, or two notes with one finger on the E and A strings, which I can't do reliably, so, mostly it's goodbye Db).

Maybe somebody else can explain the theory. All I can think of is that it's some pieces of an Ab diminished scale.

The overall chord sequence becomes

C^7 Em74 | Fm74 Em74 |
Dm74 Db7#9 | Bm74 Am74 |

(roughly two beats each).

Each chord contains the melody note needed at the moment (beats 1 and 2& - I moved some of the melody to match the groove). And the harmony follows the descending motif of the melody.

I considered using Dbm74 on beat 3 of bar 3 (instead of Db7#9/Ab), but I preferred the latter sound.

Thanks to all who responded.

[Mick-7]

I decided to go with m74. That's a chord symbol I see in Brazilian charts. So, for Fm74, I'd play F Bb Eb Ab.

I think the formal name would be Fm7add11, that's a default choice in GuitarPro, the notation software I'm using. And it literally is the voicing - minus the 5th which is unimportant and could be added on top. I have seen Fm7add 11, F7add11, etc., on charts, and they don't require explanation, whereas your Fm74 does.

Also, if you have a Fm74, will you also have a Fmaj74 and an F74? That's a recipe for confusion.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think the formal name would be Fm7add11, that's a default choice in GuitarPro, the notation software I'm using. And it literally is the voicing - minus the 5th which is unimportant and could be added on top. I have seen Fm7add 11, F7add11, etc., on charts, and they don't require explanation, whereas your Fm74 does.

Also, if you have a Fm74, will you also have a Fmaj74 and an F74? That's a recipe for confusion.

My impression is that m74 is familiar to players who read Brazilian music a lot. I like that it says to put the 4 in the middle.

74 is usually written 7sus.

maj74 is something I have not seen iirc. Maj11 seems closest. I recall it in old books but not on a chart.

[Mick-7]

My impression is that m74 is familiar to players who read Brazilian music a lot. I like that it says to put the 4 in the middle.

Actually, that name implies a different voicing: Gm74 | 3-x-3-3-1-x | - i.e., notes stacked: R-7th-3rd-4th.

Versus Gm47: | x-x-5-5-6-6 | = notes stacked: R-4th-7th-3rd

74 is usually written 7sus.

It wouldn't be suspended, it includes the 3rd too (thus 7add11).

My point was that if you're going to have a m74, you should also have a major74 and a dominant 74, you don't want a name that only applies to one type of chord form.

If you were to apply your 74 name to other chords, you'd get voicings such as:

Gmaj74 | 3-x-4-4-1-x | or | 3-x-4-5-0-x |

Gmaj47 | x-x-5-5-7-7 |

G74 | 3-x-3-4-1-x | or | 3-x-3-5-0-x |

[Bob_Ross]

I think the formal name would be Fm7add11, that's a default choice in GuitarPro, the notation software I'm using. And it literally is the voicing - minus the 5th which is unimportant and could be added on top. I have seen Fm7add 11, F7add11, etc., on charts, and they don't require explanation, whereas your Fm74 does.

"F7add11" doesn't require explanation?
When I see that chord symbol I assume the composer wants to hear a chord that contains both the major 3rd and the 4th
...but I've never been so confidant in that assumption that I haven't asked "Are you sure that's what you want to hear hear?"

And probably 50% of the time the arranger or bandleader has corrected themself; what they really meant to write was an F7sus4.

[Christian Miller]

I think the formal name would be Fm7add11, that's a default choice in GuitarPro, the notation software I'm using. And it literally is the voicing - minus the 5th which is unimportant and could be added on top. I have seen Fm7add 11, F7add11, etc., on charts, and they don't require explanation, whereas your Fm74 does.

Also, if you have a Fm74, will you also have a Fmaj74 and an F74? That's a recipe for confusion.

It’s not an 11th though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=Mick-7;1428551]Actually, that name implies a different voicing: Gm74 | 3-x-3-3-1-x | - i.e., notes stacked: R-7th-3rd-4th.

Versus Gm47: | x-x-5-5-6-6 | = notes stacked: R-4th-7th-3rd



It wouldn't be suspended, it includes the 3rd too (thus 7add11).

My point was that if you're going to have a m74, you should also have a major74 and a dominant 74, you don't want a name that only applies to one type of chord form.

If you were to apply your 74 name to other chords, you'd get voicings such as:

Gmaj74 | 3-x-4-4-1-x | or | 3-x-4-5-0-x |

Gmaj47 | x-x-5-5-7-7 |

G74 | 3-x-3-4-1-x | or | 3-x-3-5-0-x |[/QUOTE

Logical, but not what I've seen. I just looked through Chediak's Bossa Nova Vol 2. Plenty of 74, no 47. No sus either, but I've seen sus in other Braz. charts.

Not the first time somthing made sense to me that wasn't common pratice.