Piano trio vs guitar trio

[dogletnoir]

Here's one of my favorite examples of true interplay between piano and guitar:

Bill Evans and Jim Hall making magic together.

[Clint 55]

When I listen to that album, I'm like scared for Jim Hall, waiting for him to die lol. But he always managed to do at the very minimum, some minimalistic stuff that fit, stay with the time, and sound good.

[Christian Miller]

The reason, I think, that most pianists understand harmony better than most guitarist is, it's easier to see that chords come from scales on the piano. The piano's layout makes the relationship between chords and scales more transparent.

Guitar players have to unlearn seeing chords and scales (and bass movements) as separate entities and develop a way of seeing them as one on an instrument that doesn't' lend itself to that view readily. But it's is very achievable.

Totally this. This is the biggest step change in player’s command of their instrument after learning to play the thing.

A lot of rock players never get into this (they don’t really have to I suppose) - but Jimi is a good example of a rock player who did understand this approach. It’s a thing I associate with jazz and classical, but improvisation is obviously not so common in the latter.

Been playing a lot of duos and trios recently. It’s fun.

[Tal_175]

A lot of rock players never get into this (they don’t really have to I suppose) - but Jimi is a good example of a rock player who did understand this approach. It’s a thing I associate with jazz and classical, but improvisation is obviously not so common in the latter.

Jimi is an apt name to mention in this thread. His band was one of the rare examples of trios in the rock world, which is why he developed his complete approach to guitar.

It's interesting that although a lot of rock players worship Jimi, they only copy bits and pieces of his lines and riffs or his stage stunts instead of his conception of the instrument.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It's interesting that although a lot of rock players worship Jimi, they only copy bits and pieces of his lines and riffs or his stage stunts instead of his conception of the instrument.

That’s true for many rock players who are / were far more than they seemed. For example, Duane Allman was a stellar guitarist and musician who played any style well. Buddy Guy’s acoustic fingerstyle playing is very fine, although I never heard him play jazz. Mickey Baker was only known to most people as half of Mickey and Sylvia. Jimmy Bruno’s father played with Frank Virtue and the Virtues, (biggest hit was Guitar Boogie Shuffle, 1959 - EDIT: I wasn't sure, so I looked it up - J Bruno was on that date, per this documentation). But the senior Jimmy Bruno was far more than a simple rock guitarist. And Phil Upchurch played fine jazz guitar, although he wasn’t the most sophisticated soloist. Here's a really cool version of Midnight Special with Upchurch (on an L-5, I think), Jimmy Smith, Herman Riley and Jimmy Jackson -

Contrast this with the stuff that made Phil Upchurch famous. I got this 45 in 1961, and it still makes me get up and dance every time I hear it!

[ccroft]

... . The secret is to know what to play rather than just playing what you know. Here's one of my favorite examples of true interplay between piano and guitar

A fave! I think I hear them making a conscious decision to stay out of each others way in the harmony. On Bill's solo he's hardly doing anything with his left hand. Likewise, when Jim solos he's all single notes except for a few double/triple stops.

A much tougher test is a piano and guitar behind another soloist.

I've only had a couple of opportunities to play with vibes. I loved it. Wish I could do it all the time. I was quite surprised at how loud they are. Then I realized they manage to keep up with a full orchestra just fine.

Watch out for the Rhodes. Played with one a lot in the early 70's. Together we were a pretty awesome mud machine.

[L50EF15]

A fave! I think I hear them making a conscious decision to stay out of each others way in the harmony. On Bill's solo he's hardly doing anything with his left hand. Likewise, when Jim solos he's all single notes except for a few double/triple stops.

A much tougher test is a piano and guitar behind another soloist.

I've only had a couple of opportunities to play with vibes. I loved it. Wish I could do it all the time. I was quite surprised at how loud they are. Then I realized they manage to keep up with a full orchestra just fine.

Watch out for the Rhodes. Played with one a lot in the early 70's. Together we were a pretty awesome mud machine.

Rhodes and guitar can sound wonderful together, as here:

[rpjazzguitar]

Sorry but your post makes little sense to me; E.g. what does "Pianist who can kick bass and drums" mean in the context of a trio gig?

I assume the other examples were meant to say: I'd play guitar with a bassist that can sing and with a drummer and the second one would be I'd play guitar with a horn and a bass, but again, I'm assuming here, since I find your post very difficult for me to follow (but hey that could be on me and not how you wrote it).

Sorry, I thought "kicking bass" was a standard term for a keyboard player playing a bass line with his left hand or feet, if he's got pedals. Not all pianists can do this.

"Pianist who can kick bass --- and drums" refers to a kb player and a drummer. Advantages: Sounds like a quartet, pretty much, for trio prices. Giving the pianist something else to do with his left hand keeps him from chording with it and thereby creates more space for the guitar. Another thing is that the pianist won't want to take bass solos, which might be good if you don't like bass solos but your real bassists want them. Downside: a real bassist would, presumably, sound better, not that it stopped the classic guitar, organ and drum guys. Last time I saw Joey DeFrancesco he kicked bass.

[jameslovestal]

Sorry, I thought "kicking bass" was a standard term for a keyboard player playing a bass line with his left hand or feet, if he's got pedals. Not all pianists can do this.

"Pianist who can kick bass --- and drums" refers to a kb player and a drummer. Advantages: Sounds like a quartet, pretty much, for trio prices. Giving the pianist something else to do with his left hand keeps him from chording with it and thereby creates more space for the guitar. Another thing is that the pianist won't want to take bass solos, which might be good if you don't like bass solos but your real bassists want them. Downside: a real bassist would, presumably, sound better, not that it stopped the classic guitar, organ and drum guys. Last time I saw Joey DeFrancesco he kicked bass.

Thanks for the clarity; Yea, I see where you're going now; instead of the common guitar\piano\bass trio there is a guitar\piano\drum, with the piano talking over much of the bass line.

I can't recall any recording that feature that type of trio. I would like to hear a pianist that can really "kick bass" in such a setting, like what an organ does in the classic setting of guitar\organ\drums.

[rpjazzguitar]

The Wes Montgomery Trio - Wikipedia

From what I gather, Joey DeFrancesco often (always? couldn't tell) kicked bass. He did when I saw him at Dizzy's pre Covid.

Jimmy Smith too. Jimmy Smith (musician) - Wikipedia

As I understand it, guitar/organ/drums was a popular trio format in the 50s and 60s.

[jameslovestal]

The Wes Montgomery Trio - Wikipedia

From what I gather, Joey DeFrancesco often (always? couldn't tell) kicked bass. He did when I saw him at Dizzy's pre Covid.

Jimmy Smith too. Jimmy Smith (musician) - Wikipedia

As I understand it, guitar/organ/drums was a popular trio format in the 50s and 60s.

Of course there are many fine organ players that "kicked bass", and thus organ lead trios that didn't feature a bass player, but you said "Pianist who can kick bass and drums".

It appears that you meant organist and not pianist. I know of no jazz trio that featured piano and drums and another instrument other than a bass.

PS: I have seen Jimmy Smith with Larry Coryell and Tony Williams, and Joe DeFrancesco with Ron Eshete and a drummer. With these organ players a bass player isn't necessary.

[Christian Miller]

Never had a pianist do that. Play bass in the left hand sure, but never with pedals

[ccroft]

Rhodes and guitar can sound wonderful together, as here

Indeed they can and often do. Especially in the studio. In a less than perfect club environ, with bass, drums and congas you have to be careful in the mid and lower registers. My guy liked to play like McCoy with the massive rumbling left hand undercurrent. It could get a little oppressive at times. Back then there weren't really any polyphonic alternatives. That we could afford anyway.

Thanks for posting that. Hadn't heard it. I like Pat's playing here a lot!

[grahambop]

Thanks for the clarity; Yea, I see where you're going now; instead of the common guitar\piano\bass trio there is a guitar\piano\drum, with the piano talking over much of the bass line.

I can't recall any recording that feature that type of trio. I would like to hear a pianist that can really "kick bass" in such a setting, like what an organ does in the classic setting of guitar\organ\drums.

Dave McKenna made some records where he played all the bass lines on the piano, there were a couple with Scott Hamilton, and this one with Buddy de Franco:

[jameslovestal]

Dave McKenna made some records where he played all the bass lines on the piano, there were a couple with Scott Hamilton, and this one with Buddy de Franco:

Of course there are many duos where that is done, but I still know of no trios with piano and drums with another instrument, that isn't a bass.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Never had a pianist do that. Play bass in the left hand sure, but never with pedals

There are a few small bass pedal units that can be used with piano, e.g. the Crumar MojoPedal. I've seen it used in cocktail groups, lounge acts, etc (usually with a small electric keyboard of some kind). I've never been able to learn to play bass pedals right, so I gave up years ago. B3s and the modern versions like XK5 Pro can put the bass keys on the lower manual, which works great as long as it's played with skill and taste. I dislike most left hand bass playing - it just doesn't kick like the real thing. Even on real pedals, there are precious few Joey Ds out there.

[grahambop]

Of course there are many duos where that is done, but I still know of no trios with piano and drums with another instrument, that isn't a bass.

Dave McKenna actually made 2 records like that with Scott Hamilton, here’s one of them:

[L50EF15]

Indeed they can and often do. Especially in the studio. In a less than perfect club environ, with bass, drums and congas you have to be careful in the mid and lower registers. My guy liked to play like McCoy with the massive rumbling left hand undercurrent. It could get a little oppressive at times. Back then there weren't really any polyphonic alternatives. That we could afford anyway.

Thanks for posting that. Hadn't heard it. I like Pat's playing here a lot!

Ah, with a Tyner-style left hand, especially with a bigger lineup in a live setting, I can see how that could get muddy. Still, there’s something about a Rhodes that just fits with the guitar. Maybe because it approaches the sound of the vibes.

Glad you like the Martino/Goldstein cut! One of my favorites, and Martino used a solidbody L5S on that album.

[jameslovestal]

Dave McKenna actually made 2 records like that with Scott Hamilton, here’s one of them:

Thanks. I have heard this album but it must be over 20 years since I have listened to it. I was into Scott Hamilton when he was recording for Concord since he did albums with Concord guitarist Howard Alden and Cal Collins.

No Bass Hit - perfect title for what we are discussing.

[rpjazzguitar]

My Yamaha P-115 ($700 or so) electric allows for the kb to be split with the left half sent out of one output and the right half to another. Each half can have a different sound, e.g. bass on the left, piano on the right. This does not require a high end kb.

If you don't need the stereo, you can split the kb at any point, set a bass sound for the left section and go through one amp.

I play with two kb players who can cover bass this way -- a bass sound and a piano sound. And, there's at least another one locally who does it.

I don't know of a well-known, recorded trio that did it with a piano sound in a jazz context. There may be a Doors tune where Manzarek played piano and kb bass. Usually, he played organ.

[Christian Miller]

I like it when people just go with there not being a bass and just accept it and work with it.

For me the quintessential exemplar of drums/piano/sax. Probably Scott’s inspiration

[Christian Miller]

At this point the Chris Potter Underground was a sax/guitar/piano/drums line up. The Rhodes has a good bass sound.

Probably a little off topic, but Gilad Heckselman often performs without bass. He uses the Boss OC3, which covers the bass end without sounding very much like an electric bass. I think Vinson also covers keys in this band.

[docsteve]

Look out for the next Pat Metheny record. Guitar-Piano-Drums, and you can’t tell that there’s no bassist.


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[Clint 55]

Benny Goodman and Teddy Wilson had a trio with a drummer.

I can play foot bass or left hand bass on organ or piano either solo or with a combo. I'm just focusing on foot bass cuz it frees up ur left hand to comp or do backgrounds. Jimmy Smith and Joey D play(ed) left hand bass and would tap a very simple bass line/pedal tone with their foot that wouldn't clash with the chord progression. Then on ballads they would hold all the bass down with foot.

[jameslovestal]

Benny Goodman and Teddy Wilson had a trio with a drummer.

I can play foot bass or left hand bass on organ or piano either solo or with a combo. I'm just focusing on foot bass cuz it frees up ur left hand to comp or do backgrounds. Jimmy Smith and Joey D play(ed) left hand bass and would tap a very simple bass line/pedal tone with their foot that wouldn't clash with the chord progression. Then on ballads they would hold all the bass down with foot.

Right on! Here it is: