Piano trio vs guitar trio

[Clint 55]

I like it when people just go with there not being a bass and just accept it and work with it.

For me the quintessential exemplar of drums/piano/sax. Probably Scott’s inspiration

This is savage. Nat King Cole on piano?!

[Clint 55]

Dave McKenna actually made 2 records like that with Scott Hamilton, here’s one of them:

Also fantastic.

[Clint 55]

[Christian Miller]

This is savage. Nat King Cole on piano?!

Yes

[citizenk74]

That’s true for many rock players who are / were far more than they seemed. For example, Duane Allman was a stellar guitarist and musician who played any style well. Buddy Guy’s acoustic fingerstyle playing is very fine, although I never heard him play jazz. Mickey Baker was only known to most people as half of Mickey and Sylvia. Jimmy Bruno’s father played with Frank Virtue and the Virtues, (biggest hit was Guitar Boogie Shuffle, 1959 - I don’t think he was on that date) but he was far more than a simple rock guitarist. Phil Upchurch played fine jazz guitar, although he wasn’t the most sophisticated soloist.

Joe Pass, at a gig:
"Phil Upchurch just walked in. Now I'm nervous!"

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Joe Pass, at a gig:
"Phil Upchurch just walked in. Now I'm nervous!"

The truth is that we often haven't a clue about how good someone is or how broad his / her musical knowledge may be from hearing their bread and butter work. Those of you who went to Berklee years ago may know or know of a fellow graduate named Billy Baltera. He's been a quiet standout in the local and national blues scenes for decades, with boundless creativity, amazing taste, and beautiful playing. Billy's written, arranged, produced and played for many fine front people over the years and is truly great (in addition to being one of the nicest people I've ever met). I've had the pleasure of sharing a stage with him on a fair number of gigs over the years, and we've talked about a lot of stuff. But the only music we ever talked was the blues, and the only guitar I ever saw him play was his beloved LP Custom.

Back in the 90s, I had a Sunday brunch duo gig at a French cafe in center city Philly and played it for a few years with a wonderful keyboard player. Fitting right into this thread, he insisted on dragging his Rhodes everywhere, along with a JC120, despite the fact that the place had a decent upright piano kept in good tune. Sadly, he pased away suddenly and I was left with an empty sideman spot to fill on short notice. Right after John died, I had a gig along with Billy backing Lonnie Shields. Out of curiosity I asked Billy if he played any jazz - and he replied "a little". So I asked if he was interested in doing a two guitar date with me at the cafe, and he said he was.

He showed up with a fat archtop and played his @ss off!

[Christian Miller]

The world seems full of players that deny they play jazz while being better at it than me haha.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The world seems full of players that deny they play jazz while being better at it than me haha.

Welcome to the club - there's a lot of that going around!


"No, your honor - I'm trying to hide it!"

[jameslovestal]

The truth is that we often haven't a clue about how good someone is or how broad his / her musical knowledge may be from hearing their bread and butter work.

I had a gig along with Billy backing Lonnie Shields. Out of curiosity I asked Billy if he played any jazz - and he replied "a little". So I asked if he was interested in doing a two guitar date with me at the café, and he said he was.

He showed up with a fat archtop and played his @ss off!

I assume he knew enough "common" jazz standards for there to be common-ground. For me that has been the key; I've meet musicians that are a lot more skilled than me (e.g. their technique is better), but they know no jazz standards and they are used to playing songs "their way" (typically rock songs that they play as close to the original recordings as possible). I know many rock songs so I name some to play but I ask that we play them differently (especially if there isn't anyone that can sing the song). E.g. no need to repeat verse after verse but instead lets do a two-chord vamp.

Sometimes this works but most of the time it is like pulling teeth and we end up just playing blues in either E or Am.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I assume he knew enough "common" jazz standards for there to be common-ground.

I was amazed at the depth of his knowledge - he knew more standards cold than most of my jazzy friends and fellow sidepeople, and he hadn't played most of them for years. The ones he didn't know he sight-read from a ratty old fake book! It was one of the most enjoyable playing experiences I've ever had, and he expressed the same thought. Unfortunately, he was playing Saturday night blues gigs most weeks, many of which were quite a way from Philly - and an 11 AM Sunday start was a bit of a stretch after getting to bed only a few hours before.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

From what I gather, Joey DeFrancesco often (always? couldn't tell) kicked bass. He did when I saw him at Dizzy's pre Covid. Jimmy Smith too. As I understand it, guitar/organ/drums was a popular trio format in the 50s and 60s.

Oooh, yes! Both Joey D and JS make that pedal board sing. I have no quarrel with no-bass bass when it's that tight and tasteful. Sadly, many organists make even the funkiest tunes sound like background music at a roller rink with their 2 beat pedal droning or rudimentary left hand bass. Joey D is on some albums with a bass player, but I sure don't miss one when he's doing it himself.

The classic "organ trio" was a B3 and a drummer with either a tenor player or a guitarist, and an amazing number of our idols (like George Benson and Pat Martino) played in that setting at one point in their careers. I first met Pat Martino when he played with Willis "Gatortail" Jackson at the Club Harlem in Atlantic City NJ in the summer of 1964. I was 17 and he's 2 years older than me - so when I went to hear him, both of us were in the club illegally

My own organ trio was playing 7 nights a week at the Golden Inn in Avalon, NJ that summer. The organist lived down there for the summer, but the drummer and I drove back and forth to Atlantic City every night. So if we weren't too tired, we could hit the last shows and after-hours sessions before going home and crashing. Those were the days!!!

[Marinero]

Joe Pass, at a gig:
"Phil Upchurch just walked in. Now I'm nervous!"

Interesting remark, C,
I never thought of Phil as a Jazzer. We were playing around Chicago at the same time in the 60's/70's and he was the "go to" guitarist for R@B/Soul gigs and recordings. Anyone have any of his Jazz recordings to share? The closest I found was "Take Five" (2:45 and 3:34 to 3:50) that he recorded much later in 2001. In this recording you hear mainly hardcore R@B licks.
Play live . . . Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Interesting remark, C,
I never thought of Phil as a Jazzer. We were playing around Chicago at the same time in the 60's/70's and he was the "go to" guitarist for R@B/Soul gigs and recordings. Anyone have any of his Jazz recordings to share?

I have what may be his only straight ahead jazz album (Dolphin Dance - trio with bass & drums on Paddlewheel Records vinyl, 1987). In addition the title tune, he does Django, Sister Sadie, All Blues, Love for Sale, and Embraceable You. I couldn’t find it on YouTube but it’s available on CD from a few of the usual sources.

As I said earlier, he’s not the most sophisticated jazz soloist and there’s certainly nothing exciting on this one. I bought it out of curiosity and have probably listened to it half a dozen times in 30+ years, usually to satisfy the curiosity of other guitarists.

[Marinero]

I have what may be his only straight ahead jazz album (Dolphin Dance - trio with bass & drums on Paddlewheel Records vinyl, 1987). In addition the title tune, he does Django, Sister Sadie, All Blues, Love for Sale, and Embraceable You. I couldn’t find it on YouTube but it’s available on CD from a few of the usual sources.

As I said earlier, he’s not the most sophisticated jazz soloist and there’s certainly nothing exciting on this one. I bought it out of curiosity and have probably listened to it half a dozen times in 30+ years, usually to satisfy the curiosity of other guitarists.

Hi, N,
I think Joe P may have said the above remark as "tongue in cheek." Phil was a very experienced jobber. I don't believe he is a JG soloist and he might even agree. One of my drummers played with him on a couple gigs in the 70's. He's a Chicago legend.
Play live . . . Marinero

[Stringswinger]

I saw Phil Upchurch play as part of Jimmy Smith's trio that toured in the early 2000's. He sounded pretty damn good. Jazz guitar may not have been his bread and butter, but he could do it very well. I do not think his recorded output does his jazz guitar playing justice.

Regarding the Joe Pass quote, it was probably just Joe being funny. Other than Wes Montgomery, I doubt any jazz guitarist who lived in Joe's time made him "nervous".

[wintermoon]

I saw Phil Upchurch play as part of Jimmy Smith's trio that toured in the early 2000's. He sounded pretty damn good. Jazz guitar may not have been his bread and butter, but he could do it very well. I do not think his recorded output does his jazz guitar playing justice.

Regarding the Joe Pass quote, it was probably just Joe being funny. Other than Wes Montgomery, I doubt any jazz guitarist who lived in Joe's time made him "nervous".

I think Jim Hall said he spent an entire afternoon in Frisco trying to get Wes Montgomery's thumb caught in a car door.

[Dennis D]

An average pianist can front a pbd trio effectively. He chords with his left hand and plays melody with his right -- at a minimum.

The audience hears melody and comping.

Consider the guitarist in that position. There may be a few guys (probably with some classical guitar technique) who can actually comp and solo at the same time like a pianist, but most players, even pros, can't do that. Instead, the guitarist creates an illusion of it. It's not easy to do and it's certainly not easy to do for a whole show and keep it interesting. Done well it's great. I'd probably rate "Get Me Joe Beck" as high as any piano trio playing the same material. Reg can do it, but I don't know many others.

I had an accomplished pro tell me once that, after mastering and using the comp and solo technique, he got tired of explaining to audience members that ' no that wasn't a looper - that was me '..... ..It must've been disheartening to hear stuff like that....

[Herbie]

(…)
I've only had a couple of opportunities to play with vibes. I loved it. Wish I could do it all the time. I was quite surprised at how loud they are. Then I realized they manage to keep up with a full orchestra just fine.
(…)

My entire ”jazz” history consists of playing in a band with dr, bs, cl and vibes since 1995. (Quotes because our jazz is our self made jazz, a bit naivistic improvised simple music.)

At the beginning we had only some DIY marimbas. Funny but silent. Then the malletist found out the midi vibes instrument Mallet Kat. It was – and is – a heaven! At last we have vibes (and marimba) with a normal sound pressure.

I have learned to play my jazz guitar in that environment. Avoiding the bassists area have teached me to find out how to harmonise things with 3-4 notes, mostly in the strings 2, 3, 4 and sometimes the 5. Best area is between the frets 4 and 10, about. Lots of freedom in rhythm and harmonics. I am not a virtuoso but I fill my small box.

Now the malletist member has lately got bored in playing mallets and he wants to play piano. I was horrified when he suggested that: world is full of jazz piano bands – but the vibes are a rarity. Every music digger is used to hear jazz played on piano – but the sound of the vibes make listeners melt, they start to dream, they fall in love with it.

And now he wants to skip our band’s apparent ace card and make us a normal piano band with average players.

Once in the rehearsals I gave up and we tried the piano. It felt ok in the room, I was delighted and surprised.

But when I listened the recording (I record all my gigs and rehearsals with almost every band) I was shocked. The piano had operated on the very same notes that I had played and its sound just drowned my playing. There was nothing left of the guitar in the songs.

Now we are in a dead end. He does not like playing the ”old shit” and I can’t see how we could take the piano in without serious re-arrangements.

”Luckily” the clarinetist who is our band’s leader has artistic crisis and a bit deeper-than-normal depression so our band is on a undefined hiatus anyway.

Sorry ’bout the long personal rant!

Now back to the theme with a Barney Kessel quote from some live recording that was shared in here some months ago:

”It takes two exceptionally skilled guitarists to sound like an average pianist.”

So true!

[citizenk74]

My entire ”jazz” history consists of playing in a band with dr, bs, cl and vibes since 1995. (Quotes because our jazz is our self made jazz, a bit naivistic improvised simple music.)

At the beginning we had only some DIY marimbas. Funny but silent. Then the malletist found out the midi vibes instrument Mallet Kat. It was – and is – a heaven! At last we have vibes (and marimba) with a normal sound pressure.

I have learned to play my jazz guitar in that environment. Avoiding the bassists area have teached me to find out how to harmonise things with 3-4 notes, mostly in the strings 2, 3, 4 and sometimes the 5. Best area is between the frets 4 and 10, about. Lots of freedom in rhythm and harmonics. I am not a virtuoso but I fill my small box.

Now the malletist member has lately got bored in playing mallets and he wants to play piano. I was horrified when he suggested that: world is full of jazz piano bands – but the vibes are a rarity. Every music digger is used to hear jazz played on piano – but the sound of the vibes make listeners melt, they start to dream, they fall in love with it.

And now he wants to skip our band’s apparent ace card and make us a normal piano band with average players.

Once in the rehearsals I gave up and we tried the piano. It felt ok in the room, I was delighted and surprised.

But when I listened the recording (I record all my gigs and rehearsals with almost every band) I was shocked. The piano had operated on the very same notes that I had played and its sound just drowned my playing. There was nothing left of the guitar in the songs.

Now we are in a dead end. He does not like playing the ”old shit” and I can’t see how we could take the piano in without serious re-arrangements.

”Luckily” the clarinetist who is our band’s leader has artistic crisis and a bit deeper-than-normal depression so our band is on a undefined hiatus anyway.

Sorry ’bout the long personal rant!

Now back to the theme with a Barney Kessel quote from some live recording that was shared in here some months ago:

”It takes two exceptionally skilled guitarists to sound like an average pianist.”

So true!

I hear you on the vibes thing! Vibes and guitar are a wonderful fit, and so much fun to play with! To me, it's an inherently joyful sound. Viva Vibes!

[billy23]

Hey Man,

I know it's not the same but a lot of the electric pianos these days have very reasonable vibe sounds.

If the keyboardist his going to cruel your sound then you may better off parting ways with him and using the electric paint vibe option ?

Cheers

billy

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I highly recommend early George Shearing Quintet albums, especially if you like guitar, vibes and piano together. Shearing had a unique style in which he played his melody lines within 2 handed block chords that incorporated each note of the lead into 3 unison octaves. His guitar player doubled the low one and his vibes player the high one, which is what gave his group its cool sound. Chuck Wayne was the first in that guitar chair, and Toots Thielemans was his successor.

The vibes patch in the Roland guitar synths is stellar - I’ve fooled many a fellow musician in the audience with it. I love using it in unison with guitar for that Shearing sound.

[citizenk74]

Hey Man,

I know it's not the same but a lot of the electric pianos these days have very reasonable vibe sounds.

If the keyboardist his going to cruel your sound then you may better off parting ways with him and using the electric paint vibe option ?

Cheers

billy

[Herbie]

Hey Man,
I know it's not the same but a lot of the electric pianos these days have very reasonable vibe sounds.
If the keyboardist his going to cruel your sound then you may better off parting ways with him and using the electric paint vibe option ?
Cheers
billy

Yeah, they have the sound. But if the player plays the thing like a piano and there is ten notes in the air all the time, the result will still be about the same: two instruments competing to get heard.

[2bornot2bop]

Yeah, they have the sound. But if the player plays the thing like a piano and there is ten notes in the air all the time, the result will still be about the same: two instruments competing to get heard.

I don’t know any piano player who consistently plays 10 notes. 6 tops, maybe.

[Herbie]

I don’t know any piano player who consistently plays 10 notes. 6 tops, maybe.

Yes, and sometimes only one note, but let's say that piano player has got a potential to play 10 notes.

Now we need a lyrical interlude, by a piano trio from Sweden!

EST, go ahead!