Moving to New York as a Jazz Musician

[Cunamara]

I didn’t watch all the people you’re talking about, but in the end they’re all amateurs at a jam.

It looks like the jam is run laissez faire which is also a recipe for disaster. The guitar player asks if anyone will play Little Suede Shoes and a trumpet walks up and just starts. The vibe seems conductive to everyone having a bad time.

I wouldn’t go to this jam if you paid me.

The Small's scheduling email always seems to indicate that there is someone hosting the jam but clearly in this case there doesn't seem to have been anyone doing that. People are just walking on and off the stage of willy-nilly, it seems.

[JGinNJ]

This viral episode hit a nerve for me, not because the "STL" is pathetic and outrageous, but because of the reflection of what jazz culture has become. Sure, this situation is an outlier, that's why it gets so much attention, but it happened because of a toxic, chaotic environment.

I've gone to 3-4 different ongoing jazz jams in the last few years, and I used to do some open-mics and even tried a bluegrass jam a few times. I learned a lot, and fortunately didn't suffer the "vibing" and eye-rolling and passive aggressive BS that I hear about these days. I've just found it to be more nerve-wracking and frustrating to hang around just to play a couple of tunes, when you never know who's going to show up, what you'll end up playing, etc.
I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it.

[ragman1]

Has he gone yet? We wouldn't know, I suppose.

[Dave70]

STL Apology to everyone I offended - YouTube

[pamosmusic]

I think this is a stereotype of young players that doesn't hold true in my experience. Maybe I'm just lucky in who I've been hearing. Experience is super important of course, but I'm impressed by how many old heads there are on young shoulders on the scene here.

But it is certainly the case for this video here. I've heard the Smalls jam has been a bit ropey for a while? I'm not sure it's representative of the young players coming up on the NYC jazz scene who are actually working. Perhaps someone local can chip in?

Even when I was up there it was a bit like other touristy places in New York. It was famous for an excellent reason, but it inevitably starts attracting folks who are in town and are live streaming their time on the band stand and trimming it for content later and calling it Dude From Iowa OWNS NYC pro or whatever.

Though to be fair, it wasn’t my scene even when it was shredding. I wasn’t that good.

[pamosmusic]

This viral episode hit a nerve for me, not because the "STL" is pathetic and outrageous, but because of the reflection of what jazz culture has become. Sure, this situation is an outlier, that's why it gets so much attention, but it happened because of a toxic, chaotic environment.

I've gone to 3-4 different ongoing jazz jams in the last few years, and I used to do some open-mics and even tried a bluegrass jam a few times. I learned a lot, and fortunately didn't suffer the "vibing" and eye-rolling and passive aggressive BS that I hear about these days. I've just found it to be more nerve-wracking and frustrating to hang around just to play a couple of tunes, when you never know who's going to show up, what you'll end up playing, etc.
I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it.

It takes time, but once you get to know the musicians showing up (assuming you end up liking them, more or less), then how many tunes you play is less important. Just showing up to see what everyone is up to and have a drink is a nice time.

[AllanAllen]

It takes time, but once you get to know the musicians showing up (assuming you end up liking them, more or less), then how many tunes you play is less important. Just showing up to see what everyone is up to and have a drink is a nice time.

Yeah, when I was going to jam nights they got a lot funner once I made friends.

[DawgBone]

This viral episode hit a nerve for me, not because the "STL" is pathetic and outrageous, but because of the reflection of what jazz culture has become. Sure, this situation is an outlier, that's why it gets so much attention, but it happened because of a toxic, chaotic environment.

I've gone to 3-4 different ongoing jazz jams in the last few years, and I used to do some open-mics and even tried a bluegrass jam a few times. I learned a lot, and fortunately didn't suffer the "vibing" and eye-rolling and passive aggressive BS that I hear about these days. I've just found it to be more nerve-wracking and frustrating to hang around just to play a couple of tunes, when you never know who's going to show up, what you'll end up playing, etc.
I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it.

It's part of the gig in a way so do your best to learn to be comfortable. It's for your growth. At this stage for me in terms of blues jams it's really freeing exactly for the reason I DON'T feel like I'm on the spot, cause it's just a jam. I suppose if I were just coming into that scene it would be different but right now I get to have a few beers, see some other players that are cool guys, and just have a good time. As for whether it's worth it or not, only you can decide that but if the goal is greater musical development I would say it's a requirement. If it's just for fun and games then there is nothing to be worried about and it's probably not worth hanging out for a couple hours just to play two or three tunes. But it can also turn into a gig or gig invite so there is that.

[DawgBone]

STL Apology to everyone I offended - YouTube

He must've been feeling the heat because people were posting ".....but can you play spain perfectly?" on a lot of jazz youtuber channels the past few days, LOL. Seems like he was sincere, which is a good thing. Hopefully it's a learning experience he can grow from.

[John A.]

This viral episode hit a nerve for me, not because the "STL" is pathetic and outrageous, but because of the reflection of what jazz culture has become. Sure, this situation is an outlier, that's why it gets so much attention, but it happened because of a toxic, chaotic environment.

I've gone to 3-4 different ongoing jazz jams in the last few years, and I used to do some open-mics and even tried a bluegrass jam a few times. I learned a lot, and fortunately didn't suffer the "vibing" and eye-rolling and passive aggressive BS that I hear about these days. I've just found it to be more nerve-wracking and frustrating to hang around just to play a couple of tunes, when you never know who's going to show up, what you'll end up playing, etc.
I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it.

I really don't think you can read anything into jazz culture broadly from this. the person in question clearly has mental health issues, and the people there clearly didn't know how to deal with him (which is not surprising, given how hard it is to handle people acting out this way). It's not a "toxic and chaotic environment." It's a disturbed, aggressive person inflicting himself on an environment that's usually functional and positive in the eyes of a lot of people (with the caveat that I don't go there, but know many people who do).

I get your frustrations with open jams because of the waiting, musical crapshoot aspects, and because sometimes people are just jerks, but that's not new or a sign of the times or anything like that. It's just the nature of the beast and the way it has always been (certainly the "vibing" and eyerolls and impatience with newbies have).

[John A.]

I think this is a stereotype of young players that doesn't hold true in my experience. Maybe I'm just lucky in who I've been hearing. Experience is super important of course, but I'm impressed by how many old heads there are on young shoulders on the scene here.

But it is certainly the case for this video here. I've heard the Smalls jam has been a bit ropey for a while? I'm not sure it's representative of the young players coming up on the NYC jazz scene who are actually working. Perhaps someone local can chip in?

I don't go there (it's a schlep and too late at night for me), but I see a steady stream of young players at the jam I mainly frequent. Lots of phenomenal talents with great attitudes.

[Aiq]

Be careful of wanting to be a legend.

[Jonah]

Somebody combed 3hrs of a stream to time stamp every guffaw some random guy did? That is just sad.

Actually his solo and comping on St.Thomas was all right... I did not check other tunes.

And making this kind of time stamps is just disgusting.

By the way in today's world I would not be surprised it could turn out into a benefit for him.

This is what scares me also... I mean it always existed, but now it has no limits at all...
People are weak and thy deserve compassion but I often see how suddenly a 'victim' becomes very confident in their failure once it is becoming viral.

Recently I read in the news about the lady who made a fresco restoration in some Spanish city some years ago, first she was ostracized. But then it became viral, people came to see it, she sold her paintings, the church collected a fee for entrance..
So she probably became very confident in the last years of her life, but the restoration is still ridiculously lousy.
yesterday's victim whom you tried to protect maybe can easily turn into an authority

[AllanAllen]

Actually his solo and comping on St.Thomas was all right... I did not check other tunes.

And making this kind of time stamps is just disgusting.

By the way in today's world I would not be surprised it could turn out into a benefit for him.

This is what scares me also... I mean it always existed, but now it has no limits at all...
People are weak and thy deserve compassion but I often see how suddenly a 'victim' becomes very confident in their failure once it is becoming viral.

Recently I read in the news about the lady who made a fresco restoration in some Spanish city some years ago, first she was ostracized. But then it became viral, people came to see it, she sold her paintings, the church collected a fee for entrance..
So she probably became very confident in the last years of her life, but the restoration is still ridiculously lousy.
yesterday's victim whom you tried to protect maybe can easily turn into an authority

Dude, it's even worse, someone compiled and indexed a WEEK of the guy.

Sure, the guitarist did some oddball stuff at a jam, but what about the guy who compiled a week of live streams into an indexed video to shame the guitarist...

[Jonah]

Dude, it's even worse, someone compiled and indexed a WEEK of the guy.

Sure, the guitarist did some oddball stuff at a jam, but what about the guy who compiled a week of live streams into an indexed video to shame the guitarist...

Even a WEEK of live streams? So he really invested time into it...

Well this guitarist at least faced the reality... he seems strange, maybe not confident enough and protects himself this way, maybe some mental issues... I am not the one to judge. But he was on stage, he faced the reality... and for what it is worth he could play. I checked again some fragments there were awkward moments in playing but not something that does not happen with a person who does not do a lot of gigs.
But he can play... just not quite in control of what he plays.
(Actually some horn players there did not seem much better.)

I mean... if he was not behaving or reacting like this and if he would have chosen a polite decent communication, I think nobody would kick him out. On the contrary I am sure he would have got some support.

As for the one who made this compilation... I don't know what to say... nothing new, human nature... now it is just more tools to expose it.

[djg]

People are weak and thy deserve compassion but I often see how suddenly a 'victim' becomes very confident in their failure once it is becoming viral.

it's already happening. STL seems quite happy to be the lolcow of the week.

[Hep To The Jive]

Smalls jam is not a non pro friendly, it's for gigging jazz community who want to come and relax and play a few tunes after their proper gigs after hours. That's my understanding, I might be wrong. In all my long years in NYC I maybe went there once, but I don't think I participated in a jam, I can't remember. It's not my scene, I don't have much to offer for straight ahead jazz, so there's no reason.

But I went to analogues jams for swing/trad players a lot, particularly Mona's in East Village, and The Keep in Bushwick. Again, they would not be exactly warm to outsiders there, you need to have connections. It's kinda like a mafia, someone need to vouch for you, or your name should be recognized somehow. That's the vibe.

[Jonah]

Smalls jam is not a non pro friendly, it's for gigging jazz community who want to come and relax and play a few tunes after their proper gigs after hours. That's my understanding, I might be wrong. In all my long years in NYC I maybe went there once, but I don't think I participated in a jam, I can't remember. It's not my scene, I don't have much to offer for straight ahead jazz, so there's no reason.

But I went to analogues jams for swing/trad players a lot, particularly Mona's in East Village, and The Keep in Bushwick. Again, they would not be exactly warm to outsiders there, you need to have connections. It's kinda like a mafia, someone need to vouch for you, or your name should be recognized somehow. That's the vibe.

I also thought that Smalls jams are more for advanced players to enjoy playing together rather than teach…
But some horn players sounded not that good either…

By the way.. I think on horns it is easier to cheat… sometimes they come out and mumble some 1000 incoherent notes here and there and it seems like it is on purpose…
On guitar the articulation is too clean and phrasing is more clearly pronounced… you can’t hide

[Cunamara]

I mean... if he was not behaving or reacting like this and if he would have chosen a polite decent communication, I think nobody would kick him out. On the contrary I am sure he would have got some support.

As for the one who made this compilation... I don't know what to say... nothing new, human nature... now it is just more tools to expose it.

Right on both points.

The issue wasn't his playing, it was how he behaved towards other people in the jam. Nobody in that set was doing a brilliant job, to my ears, but they know that and are there to learn and develop those skills. If I went and sat in at that jam, I wouldn't sound brilliant either (because I am not). I might not sound any better than STL, for what it's worth.

I think folks on YouTube could do a better service to the planet than ganging up to shame some random guy having a bad stretch in his life. But as you say, the pile-on is human nature. I fell into it myself.

[Bob_Ross]

I don't have much to offer for straight ahead jazz

We can hang.

[Jonah]

Sometimes I think what the reaction would it be if someone playing like Bill Frisell ( but without his name and authority) would sit in traditional jazz jam

I know Bill can play trad jazz of course, and he has great timing and ear for harmony

but I am sure there would be quite a few people who would find his comping not really good and his solo… not even a solo… some notes/ chords here and there

PS and if it were Mary Harvelson … I don’t even want to imagine it

[mr. beaumont]

Just popping in to say that I can play Spain.

[AllanAllen]

Sometimes I think what the reaction would it be if someone playing like Bill Frisell ( but without his name and authority) would sit in traditional jazz jam

I know Bill can play trad jazz of course, and he has great timing and ear for harmony

but I am sure there would be quite a few people who would find his comping not really good and his solo… not even a solo… some notes/ chords here and there

PS and if it were Mary Harvelson … I don’t even want to imagine it

If they came into a straight ahead jam and blew their thing over top, then yeah. Some criticism might be warranted, jazz is a conversation, not a recital. We are supposed to use judgement, tact and taste to play something meaningful in the context of the art happening around us. Not just blow whatever we feel like 100% of the time.

Or it might be a breath of fresh air and open things up. Only one way to tell.

[Doug B]

C'mon now people, STL is a legend in his own field-you know-like the cows?

[grahambop]

Just popping in to say that I can play Spain.

Didn’t we do it here as the ‘tune of the week’ a few years ago? I remember learning it.

So I guess we’re STLs too.