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There’s being the most talked-about and then there’s being the most talked-about.
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01-07-2026 05:25 PM
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I have a friend Laurie who was running buddies around college age with a woman named Ruth Ann Friedman, who wrote the pop tune "Windy," made famous by The Association. Wes also recorded that tune as a single and some time later, she went out to her mailbox and had received a check for ~$85,000 for her publishing royalties on the Wes Montgomery version, which had charted...not sure how much Wes would have made on it.
Originally Posted by grahambop
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If you're talking specifically trad jazz, if Bill Frisell showed up and could hang on something like After You Gone at 300bpm, playing solo AND rhythm guitar, even in his own quirky style, there would be no problem. I'm pretty sure he could, there gotta be some uptempo tunes he played in his career. I know his teacher Jim Hall would definetly had no problem doing it. Comping and solo choices would be dictated a lot by the way the rhythm section plays, and it would be very different in trad jazz session from straight ahead obviously. Trad jazz rhythm is pretty limiting in what you can do, rhythm and harmony, it's quite like a backbeat, what counts the most is your physical stamina to keep up with the tempo. Originally Posted by Jonah
You know who is a good example, Julian Lage! He kills at trad jazz and he can sound like Bill Frisell sometimes. Also Yotam Silberstein(pretty modern guy) did really good with Frank Vignola at Birdland session recently, which is very swingy/trad kind of band there. The drummer there is a constant presence on NYC trad scene.
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Bill can hang up with trad jazz for sure but as you said in his own way... and he can handle uptempo tunes too for sure just leaving more space, mostly because he knows what the climax points are and he can outline them. And this is all what is needed basically. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
and I am sure that good (or at least experienced) musician would feel it immediately but still I think there can be some prejudiced opinion on it, just because they expect something he just cannot do.
Jim Hall is another story... he was a sideman in trad jazz for a long time, he could do almost everything almost like a pro session musician.
Yotem, Gilad, Rotem are modern virtuoso players with very versatile technique. It is very special feature of the new generation I think (There are plenty of bassists who can technically play like Jaco today... but still none of them is Jaco.). They can fit in mostly everything because of their technical abilities, very precise timing, perfect high speed playing, formal knowledge of vocabulary and kind of 'cold mind'... Frisell cannot match some sets just because he cannot change himself, he is too much of himself in everything he does (actually I think it concerns even more versatile players like Metheny, Scofield, even Jim Hall... yes, technically they can do a lot but just because their personal style matches more styles than Bill's style does - but in general they are always the same).
With younger guys it is more like they know exactly what is needed and how to switch to it, they have the tools and choose and change.
They scare me a bit to be honest, because they do things none of the greats of the past could do but at the same time their perception of music, beauty, art is obviously totally different, I feel like they are aliens sometimes.
Julian is different... he is also extremely versatile technically but he is also very curious musician, basically all he does is exploring Americana tradition (sometimes I feel like his curiousity substitutes personality) but at the same time his musicality is very traditional: the way he feels the rhythm, harmony, how he build phrases... it is all connected with early jazz/bluegrass/classical musicality.
Sorry... probably I derail the thread with this extended comment.
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Re: Wes, “Windy”, and money, as far as I know whoever holds the publishing gets the do, re, mi.
Wes’s cut depended on his initial deal and if he had points or not.
I hope his cup was filled but…you know.
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So, for the uninformed, here's how record labels worked.
Wes made 2x scale for the recording session because he was the leader. Then 1/100th of a cent off every record sold went to Wes' artist account at the label. This account repays the label for the cost of the session, renting the studio, buying the tape, paying the engineer and the musicians, including his own pay, pressing the album, and any marketing. After all that, and anything else the label could squeeze out, was paid off, he would theoretically get paid.
Unless of course, he needed an advance along the way, that gets paid back with interest to the label. The label of course, was quick to give advances.
They used to run entire towns this way, it's what the songs Midnight Special and Six-Teen Tons are about. Doesn't matter if the industry was coal, train porters or records, it's all the same business model. Still happening today.
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Perfectly? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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It's still plantations. That is the darker side of capitalism- why there have to be labor laws and why there are labor unions. Our current ginormous skew in American politics demonstrates how fragile is the ground upon which the average person in America stands. Since Citizens United, the concentration of wealth and political power in the hands of a tiny, tiny minority is unprecedented. As bad as it is, we ain't seen nothing yet. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I think it is more feudalism than plantations. And it is how humanity operates. The strong dominate the weak (the laws of nature are immutable). Socialist revolutions generally take better care of those at the bottom, but the ruling class is simply replaced, and the productivity of the society generally diminishes. When wealth is too concentrated in the hands of too few in a Capitalist society, the productivity diminishes as well (are we on that road today, here in America? Perhaps?). Political power is always in the hands of a few powerful people, no matter the economic system. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Here in the USA we once had a system where a minority of people in certain States enjoyed prosperity off the backs of permanently indentured servants (slaves), a terrible part of human history, that has existed in most human societies, including all races of mankind (Saudi Arabia had slavery in my lifetime which was not abolished there until 1962). America had a civil war over that issue that was pretty bad. I hope that America's present divide does not degenerate into another civil war as I fear actual fascism would be the end result. IMO, labor laws are necessary for a Capitalist society to function well. I also believe that our skewed concentration of wealth portends ill for our future, but I am unsure of a good solution to that problem. I think death taxes are a better option than wealth taxes as it leaves incentive in the system.
But that is a digression. The record business has mostly been a rip-off for the musicians to some degree. I think that technology has made it easier for musicians to monetize their product without record companies being involved, on the one hand while on the other hand, technology has also made it easier for the public to rip off both the record companies and the musicians. The bottom line is that today, it is tough for most musicians (of any genre) to make a good living whether you are in New York or anywhere else.
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Off topic, but unsurprisingly, I don't agree. I don't feel like I am being dominated nor am I the one doing any dominating. My country's political leaders seem craven and weak. And the US's leaders are the same. These people are weak against the strong and strong against the weak. Which is just pathetic. There are many facets to things, but ultimately they are just slaves to an increasingly broken system. Nor do I agree with your assertion that about the so-called immutable laws of nature. You should read Graeber and Wengrow's 'The Dawn of Everything' - humans have through history demonstrated a propensity to alter their social organisations in protean, very mutable ways. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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It’s a great book. I read and liked it so much I bought it for my dad who loved it too. The stuff about the enlightenment is particularly fascinating. I think it’s fair to say it’s quite a radical take, and there's obviously a bit of academic back and forth which I should probably dig into.You should read Graeber and Wengrow's 'The Dawn of Everything' - humans have through history demonstrated a propensity to alter their social organisations in protean, very mutable ways.
Graeber’s whole career was about debunking the fairy stories of Western thought. I’m into it. Taken from us far too young.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 01-08-2026 at 06:22 PM.
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That's a pretty brutal compliment lol Originally Posted by Jonah
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"fascism would be the end result"
Um...checked the news lately?
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Fascism is always the result when checks and balances are eliminated. Doesn’t matter if they’re left or right. It’s the distribution of power that stops it. Originally Posted by rictroll
I’m not saying things will ever be perfect, but they could be better than this.
Hard to believe federal agents shouldn’t kill people in the street is a hot take.
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I find it amazing that people think it is OK to interfere with Federal law enforcement officers who are enforcing Federal law. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
That is not "peaceful protest" it is obstruction, which is a crime. If you do not have the votes to change a law you do not like, you do not have the right to obstruct those enforcing that law, from carrying out their duties, full stop.
What happened yesterday will need to be adjudicated by an unbiased jury. If the law enforcement agent committed a crime, he should pay the price. Contrary to our Vice President's proclamation, no law enforcement agent has absolute immunity to commit manslaughter. The cops involved in George Floyds death found that out the hard way.
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I dunno, I wasn’t there. But my echo chamber seems to think she wasn’t involved with the protests and panicked.
Your echo chamber says the opposite, which is unsurprising. The reality of it all is sad, on many levels.
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24 years with a major city PD. Obstruction is what law enforcement uses when they have nothing else to charge you with. It’s the least effective law, and overused by inexperienced LE officers, and judges east to west know this. And it’s certainly not something that merits shooting and killing someone over.
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When I was young, it was common knowledge that you didn’t play with the police because they weren’t playing with you. They carry guns for a reason.
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The woman was trying to drive away.
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Trump's camo shirt thugs will not be prosecuted since a Trump-subservient agency has taken over the "investigation" and there will be no trial. But like those wearing brown before them, they will be discarded when someone even more vicious comes along. History has cycles and those who ignore them just live them out all over again. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Renee Good was, according to the available information, someone who lived in the neighborhood and was not involved in the protests nor obstructing except unwittingly. She was getting yelled at with contradictory instructions by the ICE thugs (a common mistake made by law enforcement). She rolled the window down and tried to wave the ICE vehicles through (there is plenty of room to go by her on that street, which I know well). ICE instead decided to escalate and attack her in her car- rather than simply directing her out of the area- and then the agent, Jonathan Ross, committed at best an unnecessary shooting and at worst murder. Ross was not struck by her car, as claimed by Trump and Noem, according to multiple camera angles. Her car was turning away him. This was amped-up aggression not self-defense.
ICE's actions were outside of the standards of police practice and out of compliance state and federal law governing the actions of law enforcement officers. ICE is only nominally federal law enforcement these days- they are a state-sponsored domestic terrorist organization serving Trump's anti-Christian policy of maximum cruelty.
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oh boy, how did it take such a quick turn to politics? Now the thread is doomed lol. At least discuss NYC one, it's a commuinst experiment now, welcome Mandani, or whatever his name is. How that would affect the jazz music scene? IMO not good at all.
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I'm lucky I lived in NYC the best times, under mayors Guilliani and especially Michael Bloomberg. Bloomberg was absolutely the best mayor for the city ever.
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Actually, I lived in NYC under her best ever Mayor, to wit, John V. Lindsay. I also lived in NYC under Mayor Beame and Mayor Koch. Lucky me, that was a great time to experience NYC. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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I will not comment on this book. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But I really recommend Sad Tropics by Claude Levi-Strauss
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ICE agents are not police, new ICE hires currently receive only 6 weeks of training before being put on active duty. The training program was 5 months long (which is still much shorter than police classroom training alone) before the Trump administration ramped hiring way up and cut the training period in half. And the rushed hiring process has led to inadequate vetting of agents. Originally Posted by rrbasic
Over a dozen people have been shot by ICE agents in the last 5 months, the latest death is the 9th person that's been shot by an ICE agent while driving their car. The police officers code of conduct prohibits this: "(e.) MOVING VEHICLES. An officer shall not discharge a firearm at the operator or occupant of a moving vehicle unless the operator or occupant poses an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to the public or an officer by means other than the vehicle. Officers shall not discharge a firearm from his or her moving vehicle."
How Many People ICE Has Shot, Killed During Trump Immigration Enforcement | The Marshall Project
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