For those who went to music school, was it worth it?

[pamosmusic]

The other day, a friend of mine (who is not a musician) said that, one thing he liked about Radiohead was that they had music degrees. Unlike most popular bands, the members of Radiohead weren't self-taught musicians (I don't know if that's true or not). In some inexplicable way, that made him take the band more seriously.

This is a completely different thing though, Tal. This is a non musicians perception of what a music degree does. The view from the outside is different and I’ll reiterate that I’ve never heard someone say that their performance degree will guarantee them a job when they’re done. Everyone knows they’re going to have to scrap when they get out. Of course young people might be unrealistic about what “scrapping” entails or maybe about how competitive the field is. But I really haven’t encountered anyone who thinks the degree is a qualification in itself. I mean …. Literally in the college, people get Cs on juries or don’t chair in the orchestra. So competition is baked in.

As for the outsiders perspective — people don’t know what a field is like unless they’re in it. I was at a birthday party the other day with my son and was talking to another dad. I asked him what he did and he said he worked at a NASA adjacent lab nearby. I was like Oh man that’s cool. He said Ah no I’m not one of the physicists, I’m just an engineer.

I said “oh that’s cool, what do you work on?”

he said “particle accelerators.”

So for me, anyone with an engineering degree is basically a genius. For him, the dude who designs particle accelerators is the dumb jock in the room.

I think you are underestimating the weight having a university degree in a subject still carries in the society. People still trust universities as institutions of high standard. It sort of grants the graduates the status of "not being hacks" and "not having important gaps in their training" right off the bat. That is a privilege. One can of course debate how big a privilege that is, how much it contributes to professional success etc. but what we are discussing here is is whether the perception of credibility plays a motivational role in deciding whether to get degree in music or follow alternative paths to musicianship.

Not really. College has some prime of place still but not in this music specific way. When I told my mom I wanted to study music and asked if that was okay she said “sure, college is for learning how to think.” So she knew even twenty years ago that a degree shows an employer that you’re willing to sit and do a thing and accumulate some expertise in it. In a lot of ways, it’s much less important what you studied.

I know you said you didn’t study music in college.

Ask me how many times I’ve been asked where I studied when I showed up to play.

When my degree has mattered more is when I was working more in music adjacent professions. I’ve worked as the shipping then sales manager at a boutique guitar builder. He could’ve gone with someone who was a business person and could learn music, but he went the other way around. I ran the door at The Jazz Standard in new York and the degree was probably useful but the manager at the time was a jazz guitarist so I think if I’d been able to talk jazz with him, I could’ve been an English major and it wouldn’t have mattered. I work now for a little constellation of nonprofits and they wanted a music degree. But that’s about it.

[James W]

If you believe that having a university degree in a subject does not carry weight in the society, that's fine, you disagree. It's the same generalization, really.

No, my point was more nuanced. My point was that it might carry weight, or it might not. I wasn't making a generalisation.

[pamosmusic]

AFAIK It's only Jonny Greenwood who has had formal music lessons/can read music.

Fun fact: in my capacity as (degreed and automatically qualified) sales manager at the guitar builder, I sold a bass to Colin Greenwood.

[Tal_175]

No, my point was more nuanced. My point was that it might carry weight, or it might not. I wasn't making a generalisation.

Well you were making generalizations about the class element and the sense of entitlement part of the populations have, and how the music (or art) degree fulfils that entitled prestige, no?

[James W]

Well you were making generalizations about the class element and the sense of entitlement part of the populations have, and how the music (or art) degree fulfils that entitled prestige, no?

This was a different point to the one you were making about wanting to do a music degree to be perceived as credible.

My point about the class element wasn't a generalisation - it's a fact that a disproportionate number of professional musicians come from a private school background, in the UK at least.

[GuyBoden]

AFAIK It's only Jonny Greenwood who has had formal music lessons/can read music.

Like I say, I decided to study music because I love music. Unfortunately I wasn't able to fulfil my perceived potential in doing my music degree, but I still remain sceptical about what you seem to be saying that I was motivated by the desire to be perceived as credible. Really, I definitely do not remember credibility being anywhere in my 18 year old mind in making that decision, but I do remember being fascinated with and loving music... listening, playing, following scores, acquiring CDs etc... Really, I had zero plan about what I wanted to do after the degree, no professional aspirations whatsoever. Probably except to further my education (I still might like one day to do a master's).

Either you can take what I'm saying at face value or you can persist in believing you have greater insight into my own (and others') secret subconscious motivations for getting a music degree.

Totally agree, I studied Music at college after school at 17 years old, because I wanted to play the guitar obsessively (Free Guitar lessons at college) and learn more about Music theory.

Fortunately common sense prevailed, I changed to an Engineering degree at Manchester Uni, which had more career opportunities.

[pamosmusic]

Totally agree, I studied Music at college after school at 17 years old, because I wanted to play the guitar obsessively (Free lessons at college) and learn more about Music theory.

Fortunately common sense prevailed, I changed to an Engineering degree at Manchester Uni, which had more career opportunities.

So you’re one of those geniuses, eh

[Tal_175]

I'll repost this as it got buried in the other conversation about whether having a degree in music is perceived as a professional competitive advantage or not.

1. I know players who can hear a guitarist play the wrong chord and, not only do they know the correct chord, but they know the name of the incorrect chord he just played.

The other day, I was thinking about starting a thread on this subject.

What is the correct chord that they are expecting to hear? A particular voicing? A particular bass note? In the context of past swing jazz, the rhythm section has a lot of freedom for how to arrange the harmony. Is FM9 without a root the "correct" chord for F major? How about if they add some inner voice movements and quartal voicings?

Let's be more specific. Let's say the band is playing two bars for F major than D7 after.
The bass plays:

C C# D E | F A Bb C | D ...

The guitar or piano plays (I am putting the vertical notes in the chord in curly brackets, top to bottom):

| {E A D G} {F C D A} | {C G D A} {Bb E A D} { C F A D} |

This is not an unreasonable accompaniment for soloist in the context of the intended harmony (even if the bass plays Bb on the third beat of the second F major bar, lol).

This is also true if the harmony is realized with polyphony. Suppose there are two parts. It's not like one part is gonna go Root, Root, Root .. and the other one Third, Fifth, Third, Fifth. I mean that happens in some of the folk traditions. But in jazz, and in many modern music, the harmony is realized in more impressionistic (or generalized) ways that it's harder to define what constitutes the "correct chord", no?

[RobbieAG]

I don't regret going, but knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd decide to devote so much time and effort and money to music school. Hindsight is 20-20 as they say.

It reminds me of this tune by Scott Henderson which is hilarious.

[GuyBoden]

So you’re one of those geniuses, eh

No, they were working on the Helsinki Conjecture, probably still are.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'll repost this as it got buried in the other conversation about whether having a degree in music is perceived as a professional competitive advantage or not.


The other day, I was thinking about starting a thread on this subject.

What is the correct chord that they are expecting to hear? A particular voicing? A particular bass note? In the context of past swing jazz, the rhythm section has a lot of freedom for how to arrange the harmony. Is FM9 without a root the "correct" chord for F major? How about if they add some inner voice movements and quartal voicings?

Let's be more specific. Let's say the band is playing two bars for F major than D7 after.
The bass plays:

C C# D E | F A Bb C | D ...

The guitar or piano plays (I am putting the vertical notes in the chord in curly brackets, top to bottom):

| {E A D G} {F C D A} | {C G D A} {Bb E A D} { C F A D} |

This is not an unreasonable accompaniment for soloist in the context of the intended harmony (even if the bass plays Bb on the third beat of the second F major bar, lol).

This is also true if the harmony is realized with polyphony. Suppose there are two parts. It's not like one part is gonna go Root, Root, Root .. and the other one Third, Fifth, Third, Fifth. I mean that happens in some of the folk traditions. But in jazz, and in many modern music, the harmony is realized in more impressionistic (or generalized) ways that it's harder to define what constitutes the "correct chord", no?

I'll rephrase. I know players who can tell what chord you just played, no matter what it was.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've read about auditions for open spots in working rock bands.
I can't recall even reading about formal auditions for working jazz bands. I presume it's happened somewhere at some point, but I'd be surprised to hear that it's commonplace.

But, I've seen a number of situations in which somebody showed up for a gig or jam, checked out the other players, and hired somebody. Or, organized a jam for the purpose of evaluating a prospect for upcoming gigs.

[Flat]

LOL. Scott started teaching at GIT in Hollywood in 1983 or '84, which is when I showed up, and which is no doubt the Gittar School in this song. I feel seen.

It's been over 40 years now. Sigh. Now that was a good year for me. It was just a 12-month program (far less commitment than a proper 4-year BA in Music, or a conservatory tour).

But for me, it was definitely worth it. I would love the chance to do it again. (Especially if it came with a revisit to my 25year old body, lol.)

[Tal_175]

This is a completely different thing though, Tal. This is a non musicians perception of what a music degree does. The view from the outside is different and I’ll reiterate that I’ve never heard someone say that their performance degree will guarantee them a job when they’re done. Everyone knows they’re going to have to scrap when they get out. Of course young people might be unrealistic about what “scrapping” entails or maybe about how competitive the field is. But I really haven’t encountered anyone who thinks the degree is a qualification in itself. I mean …. Literally in the college, people get Cs on juries or don’t chair in the orchestra. So competition is baked in.

I don't think performance degree will guarantee them a job when they’re done in any field. Is that really what you thought I was saying? A factor can be advantageous but not guarantee a result obviously.

It seems like you agree that non-musicians' perception of a music degree could be more substantive and prestigious than people in the music business? That's the 99% of the world population. The population that also includes the prospective students and their parents as the prospective student wouldn't yet have the wisdom of the experienced music professionals. Even Phd students in any field don't quite know what they are getting themselves into in terms of what a Phd means for their careers, much less undergrads. So wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that this perception plays a role in the motivation to pursue music education at a degree issuing institution? Was that not at all consideration for you when you made the decision to study music at a university?

[James W]

'Prestige' is quite an intangible thing, I think. Much more so than the material outcome of a love for music, which, given my age/generation, manifests itself in a large CD collection...

[pamosmusic]

I don't think performance degree will guarantee them a job when they’re done in any field. Is that really what you thought I was saying? A factor can be advantageous but not guarantee a result obviously.

Well you did keep saying that musicians pursue degrees because of the security it confers. And stuff like this:

I believe there is a perception that having a degree in music automatically grants a musician a certain level of credibility and prestige. That is an insight I have into the society. It's either that it doesn't exist and I am projecting or it exist but it is an insight that escaped you. Theories of mind are inductive insights so it's hard to prove one way or another.

As for this bit:

It seems like you agree that non-musicians' perception of a music degree could be more substantive and prestigious than people in the music business? That's the 99% of the world population. The population that also includes the prospective students and their parents as the prospective student wouldn't yet have the wisdom of the experienced music professionals. So wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that this perception plays a role in motivation to pursue music education at a degree issuing institution? Was that not at all consideration for you when you made the decision to study music at a university?

No man. I most definitely did not go to college for music thinking it would confer any prestige or security. Honestly the only way someone could think people go to school thinking that is if they have no idea what the experience is like. Mostly we deal with nonsense like this with people telling us we’re stupid ass**** or whatever Rabin was spouting off about. The video you posted is not new. It’s what people think and have thought for ages about people who pursue the arts.

I told my senior English teacher I was going to college for music and she said “ohhh but you’re so smart.”

So no. Not a lot of prestige in the endeavor. And I’m one of the lucky ones whose parents were supportive.

You say “wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume this perception plays a role in motivation.” But that’s assuming this student has no mentor, no teacher, no experience in the space. Most people were told about music school at some point, and usually by someone who cares enough to make sure they understand it. Whether or not they do is another story, but most of the time people go in eyes at least partially open.

You said you didn’t go to school for music. Maybe your theory of mind in this respect isn’t really worth as much as you think it is.

[Tal_175]

Well you did keep saying that musicians pursue degrees because of the security it confers. And stuff like this:

So when I say, there is a perception that having a degree in music automatically grants a musician a certain level of credibility and prestige.

You understand that to mean:
"performance degree will guarantee them a job when they’re done". No wonder why we talk pass each other sometimes.

I told my senior English teacher I was going to college for music and she said “ohhh but you’re so smart.”

So no. Not a lot of prestige in the endeavor.

Here I don't mean prestige and security compared to studying something else. It's compared to trying to became a professional musician without a degree.

No man. I did not go to college for music thinking it would confer any prestige or security.

Well since we seem to be quoting each other now. This is also what you said:

I’m 100% sure that credibility and validation were part of the motivation for me, but I think that’s more a motivation for anyone at all setting out to do anything.

You said you didn’t go to school for music. Maybe your theory of mind in this respect isn’t really worth as much as you think it is.

I did consider it briefly at one point. But I didn't think pursuing a path to musicianship was a good idea. I also took some courses from the music department where I did my undergrad.

[BradGuitar]

It’s certainly an interesting topic for sure, one that I’ve questioned for myself over the years. There’s nothing of any interest I can add that hasn’t already been discussed I suppose but…

I did a Popular Music Degree (ducks for cover), do I wish I’d just had weekly lessons with a great teacher for 3 years? In a lot of ways, yes. Would’ve been cheaper!

But the networking opportunities of doing that music degree fast tracked me to playing professionally and broadened my horizons in many ways that might have passed me by had I not been there. I could’ve dropped out after 18 months and still be where I am now, so for me that piece of paper at the end… is just a piece of paper. Seems these days in the UK at least, degrees (music in particular) are devalued and masters now have the standing the degrees used to have…

Like the old adage “You pass your driving test, then you learn to drive”, I suppose you finish music school, then you learn to play. Or keep learning in my case.

Is it worth it for everyone that goes? Most likely not.

Does everyone need to go? Definitely not.

Was it worth it in my case? I’d have to say it was.

[pamosmusic]

I guess validation and credibility are the same thing as prestige and security now?

And honestly we probably talk past each other because you use phrases like “theory of mind” and “insight into the society” to describe your opinions about other people’s motivations and life choices.

That might be irreconcilable differences right there.

[rpjazzguitar]

In middle school, around 1964, I asked the music teacher if I could go to music college as a guitarist.

I don't recall his full answer, but I recall the phrase "legitimate guitar".

There were very few things I ever wanted to formally study for the sheer joy of learning about them. And, despite a lifelong passion for guitar, "legitimate guitar" didn't sound that good.

I did contemplate going to college to study music but, at the time, I had only a very limited idea of what that actually involved. Colleges had "catalogs" which you had to send away for by snail mail, then called "mail". And, at the level I was back then, I probably wouldn't have understood the course descriptions. I recall thinking that it might not be that easy a way to make a living -- that I might be a music teacher, but that didn't sound that good either.

Then it occurred to me that despite being a older than the average student, I could apply to Berklee. But, why?
The only compelling answer, for me, was being around musicians all day every day and absorbing what I could. That sounds like fun to me, even though there would be a lot of chances to be overwhelmed by the ability of other musicians.

The idea of taking classes and exams is far less appealing. It might be useful to superimpose some structure and accountability, but it doesn't sound like fun.

[Tal_175]

Here is a very current paper on musicians with a degree and income. They also compare musicians who are music majors with non-majors. Apparently music majors work 5.7 hours more weekly than non-majors.
Music Majors and Musician Income by James B. Bailey, Sean R. Smith :: SSRN.

There is a link to the pdf of the paper on the page:
Music Majors and Musician Income by James B. Bailey, Sean R. Smith :: SSRN

[CliffR]

I can tell you my appreciation of Motorhead grew immeasurably once I learnt that Fast Eddie Clarke had an O-Level in Metalwork.

[Bob_Ross]

Well, we're 8 pages in so I hope OP got enough data points to answer their question, but just in case another would be of use:

I have a Bachelor of Music degree from the Berklee College of Music (1982), and a Master of Music degree from the New England Conservatory of Music (1995).

Were they worth it? Abso-fcuking-lutely. No question in my mind that the experience and knowledge I gained from immersing myself in fulltime academia had a positive and tangible impact on my musical skills. Not a day goes by where I'm not doing something musical that I can trace back to something I learned in school...or, learned post-school as an obvious corollary to something that I had previously learned in school.

Would I be as successful a musician if I hadn't gone to music school? (Or, would I be as good a musician if I hadn't?)
Who knows? WHO CARES? I did go to music school, so I can only offer empirical evidence from the School = Yes data set. Anything else would be hypothetical conjecture.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd still do it
...differently, but I'd still do it.

[BreckerFan]

I didn't go to music school, although I was able to take a handful of classes in the jazz studies department while I got my engineering degree. Most days I wish I had just gone for music, although I still go back and forth.

I'm pretty good at self studying subjects that I'm interested in, so I don't feel like there's any secret domain of knowledge that I'm missing. You can learn anything with patience and an internet connection lol. Although guidance and structure are in some ways just as important as the information, and no doubt would've saved me time and filled in weak areas.

But the invaluable things I think I missed are the community and the credential. Being surrounded by like minded people and having several years to play with other talented musicians goes a long way. I still feel like I have a long way to go in learning performance skills and overcoming performance anxiety which probably wouldn't be as big of a problem if I had been a performance major. Plus making those connections is invaluable for working; the scene in Philly where I went to school is heavily influenced by the jazz schools there. Also, having a credential to put on a resume could open a few more doors for giving lessons through an institution.

On the flip side, my engineering degree gave me a lot of stability, flexibility, and a pretty immediately well paying job. When I graduated and got my first engineering job, my first paycheck went to pay rent, and my second went to my Eric Johnson Thinline Strat lol, and I've got a really nice gear collection because of engineering. I was able to move to NYC and keep the same engineering job that I had been working in Philly, which made the move much more doable. But the limitation is of course that the longer you stay in engineering, the more they expect from you, and the less time you have for music. That ultimately became a breaking point for me.

So idk, I can't deny the benefits that a more "practical" degree had for me, but I also can't deny the tangible benefits that music school offers that would be beneficial for making music a career. The benefits aren't necessarily tangible in the same way as those of a "practical" degree, but I think they're very real.