For those who went to music school, was it worth it?

[rpjazzguitar]

I think they knew those songs really well because they heard them all the time.

.

Let's bat this around.

Warren Nunes told me that if he heard a song on a jukebox once, he knew it for the rest of his life.

The wedding musicians certainly knew the songs, with the number of hearings required being highly variable, from Warren to whatever.

But, what do we mean by "knew"? I think they knew the song the way a non-musician can sing a song they like. They are not thinking "start on the fifth and go up a tritone". They just sing it. And, if you play a wrong chord they'll recognize that it's wrong (we don't agree on that point, apparently). So, my point is that, in their way, non-musicians know the harmony too.

I think the wedding musicians knew songs the very same way. But, the wedding players could find the song on the instrument instantly, melody and chords both, and key didn't matter any more to them than it did to a non-musician.

My interest in this comes from the fact that I can do this pretty well for melody and pretty poorly for chords. I have no idea why.

On those occasions when it does work for chords it feels like my fingers are finding the next chord with no intervention from the likes of me. I'm imagining that it's like that for those wedding players.

[Tal_175]

I think this may be more your hang up than anything else. The term community of course does not preclude a dominance hierarchy. It just means a group of people brought together by geography, interests or some other shared characteristic.

In terms of what you get out of a music degree - I think it helps to get teaching jobs. Other than the comm.... social group.. whatever you want to call it, and connections you get from going, once you are in a wider comm... scene of musicians in for instance, a large city, no-one really asks where you went (unless they are like 20).

Prestige? I don't know. I think if you can play and you know people on the scene everyone assumes you went to one place or another. That's simply because most players have been. But by no means all.

I believe there is a perception that having a degree in music automatically grants a musician a certain level of credibility and prestige. That is an insight I have into the society. It's either that it doesn't exist and I am projecting or it exist but it is an insight that escaped you. Theories of mind are inductive insights so it's hard to prove one way or another.

The perceived advantages of having a music degree can even be an illusion but ultimately that perception plays a role in decisions in whether or not to get a music degree. I don't have a music degree but I met many who have. I think I've gone much further in my musical development than most people who just graduated with a music degree in areas that I find relevant to jazz performance. But if I was 18 and decided to have a career in music, I would have found the relative security of having a music degree very appealing. I am surprised if you think that's such an outlier motivation. I am sure that perception has some real consequences too. For example it would probably be much easier to be hired to gigs early on in one's music career if you have a degree in music. I suspect most people would find it less risky to hire music graduates.

[rpjazzguitar]

In a group of musicians, it doesn't take long before everybody understands the capabilities of everybody else reasonably well. Once that level of understanding is attained, people don't think about who went to music school and who didn't.

And, there seems to be a wide range of ability among individuals with the same diploma, which makes it difficult to credit the diploma.

[rlrhett]

My nephew just graduated from a music program as a jazz saxophonist. My brother is very worried about his financial future, but we are all immensely proud of him for the hard work and dedication. Maybe that is enough?

Personally, I didn’t even know you could go to a university to study jazz. Although, I met plenty of people apparently studying amateur football and beer consumption. My nephew spent several years more focused and working harder than a large swath of his peers. Indulgent? Could he have learned jazz on the “mean streets”? Perhaps. But worth it? No doubt.


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[Christian Miller]

Pls delete multiple post

[Christian Miller]

I believe there is a perception that having a degree in music automatically grants a musician a certain level of credibility and prestige. That is an insight I have into the society. It's either that it doesn't exist and I am projecting or it exist but it is an insight that escaped you.

For my personal experience, having a music degree is useful for job applications. Beyond that I’d say it’s mostly on your playing and ability to network. I think I used to think it was more important than I think it is now.

That said I would encourage people to go to school, not follow my route, but do so with their eyes open.

I would say from personal expense is that one of the worst uses of energy is thinking about what other people think about your qualifications, playing etc. Use that energy for practicing, playing, networking and hustling gigs and try not to be too introspective.

Musicians like people who are fun to be stuck in a car with for four hours. Not sure if I’ve got there myself lol.

Theories of mind are inductive insights so it's hard to prove one way or another.

The perceived advantages of having a music degree can even be an illusion but ultimately that perception plays a role in decisions in whether or not to get a music degree. I don't have a music degree but I met many who have. I think I've gone much further in my musical development than most people who just graduated with a music degree in areas that I find relevant to jazz performance. But if I was 18 and decided to have a career in music, I would have found the relative security of having a music degree very appealing. I am surprised if you think that's such an outlier motivation. I am sure that perception has some real consequences too. For example it would probably be much easier to be hired to gigs early on in one's music career if you have a degree in music. I suspect most people would find it less risky to hire music graduates.

People hire people they know or who have been recommended, on the whole. You need to build up working relationships. So it comes back to community. And that btw IS a useful aspect of music college.

As far as auditions go, maybe a degree could help you get through to the audition stage. But I’ve never auditioned for a jazz thing in my life.


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[Christian Miller]

Btw what I’m saying here is all stuff I wish I’d known fifteen years ago.

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[GuyBoden]

I remember that Music was on the School curriculum at English state schools in the 1970's.

"Every Good Boy Deserves Football"

"All Cows Eat Grass"

[James W]

The distinction here though is not whether one pursues a life long dedication to music or not.The distinction is how one does it. Going to music school or the more affordable alternative of "pausing" and taking lessons (as stated in the video). One advantage of music school people keep bringing up compared to pursuing music without a degree is the community element. In my opinion the security and prestige it provides as a motivation factor is being understated in this conversation. There is nothing wrong or shameful about the competitive advantages a degree provides being a motivation factor. The term "dominance hierarchy" is perhaps rubbing people the wrong way but it's an objective term that describes a core factor of the social organisation of (social) mammals.

Well, there may be a community aspect, but, speaking personally, I was either a bit of a loner or hanging out with people who weren't studying music.

As for security and prestige, I don't think a music degree in and of itself provides that. More to do with how much work you (are able to) put in. It's not like it automatically confers prestige, depending perhaps on the institution you've attended. I also think, unfortunately, there is a class element to do with this, in that people pursuing music at degree level are likely already before going to music school to have had all the opportunities and encouragement that could be thrown at them. That art is becoming more a plaything for people who have been to private school etc.

So I would invert your point - many people who go to music school don't go because of the prestige it confers but rather to fulfil the prestige they've already acquired.

There is no more 'dominance hierarchy' than any other degree, or topic, though. I mean it's not like by acquiring a qualification you can wave that piece of paper around to prove you know what you're talking about - that would be apparent from what you were saying with or without a degree.

[Hep To The Jive]

For my personal experience, having a music degree is useful for job applications. Beyond that I’d say it’s mostly on your playing and ability to network. I think I used to think it was more important than I think it is now.

That said I would encourage people to go to school, not follow my route, but do so with their eyes open.

I would say from personal expense is that one of the worst uses of energy is thinking about what other people think about your qualifications, playing etc. Use that energy for practicing, playing, networking and hustling gigs and try not to be too introspective.

Musicians like people who are fun to be stuck in a car with for four hours. Not sure if I’ve got there myself lol.



People hire people they know or who have been recommended, on the whole. You need to build up working relationships. So it comes back to community. And that btw IS a useful aspect of music college.

As far as auditions go, maybe a degree could help you get through to the audition stage. But I’ve never auditioned for a jazz thing in my life.


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Never heard of auditions either. I don't think anyone doing it. A jam performance can qualify as audition maybe? I also used to go to people who I wanted to play with and who didn't know me, and talk myself up, asking to sit in, stuff like that. Quite dodgy, but I was confident I can cut it, and it worked more often than not. Then it's the word of mouth, the main thing to be in college for.

[Christian Miller]

I also think, unfortunately, there is a class element to do with this, in that people pursuing music at degree level are likely already before going to music school to have had all the opportunities and encouragement that could be thrown at them. That art is becoming more a plaything for people who have been to private school etc.

It's complicated. There's movement in this direction I would say - years of austerity would tend to do that.

There was an element of this to one of the master's projects I did. Trinity Laban has one of the wider intakes of the London colleges - I forget what percentage but it does have a high intake of state school students compared to the other conservatoires. And even there a lot of respondents felt that they were a bit out of place, that others had a better handle on navigating the kind of institution a music school is and how to have the confidence to start building their careers etc. (These were classical students though.)

I sympathise - because I experienced the exact same thing at University. I would say that thankfully, this stuff bothers me much less than it used to, but it takes a while to get there, and it's definitely a factor at college.

OTOH I would say T-L is one of the most influential schools in London jazz ATM, perhaps in part because of its more diverse student body. I've actually never known the London scene to be so strong. You turn over a rock and find ten brilliant young musicians.

What you say is certainly becoming true of classical music. According to my friends who teach at conservatoires and see the intakes, classical music at T-L is basically being saved by foreign students while the private school types go to the more conventionally prestigious colleges. It has largely been excised from state school education in the UK. This makes my blood boil, but that's another story. Suffice to say, for various ideological reasons no-one is championing state provision of classical music education.

[pamosmusic]

I believe there is a perception that having a degree in music automatically grants a musician a certain level of credibility and prestige. That is an insight I have into the society. It's either that it doesn't exist and I am projecting or it exist but it is an insight that escaped you. Theories of mind are inductive insights so it's hard to prove one way or another.

For performance majors it doesn’t exist. Even fifteen years ago I never heard that once.

For music ed majors there’s maybe a bit of that but that’s because it comes with a literal certification intended to qualify you for a specific job. Even still the number of times I hear “why do I need elementary methods? Because that might be the job you end up with.” So even to the degree there was some assumption of employment, acknowledgment that it probably wouldn’t be the specific job you’re after was built into the program.

[Christian Miller]

For performance majors it doesn’t exist. Even fifteen years ago I never heard that once.

For music ed majors there’s maybe a bit of that but that’s because it comes with a literal certification intended to qualify you for a specific job. Even still the number of times I hear “why do I need elementary methods? Because that might be the job you end up with.” So even to the degree there was some assumption of employment, acknowledgment that it probably wouldn’t be the specific job you’re after was built into the program.

It's why I got a Music Education Master's. That, and it was cheaper.

[Christian Miller]

Never heard of auditions either. I don't think anyone doing it. A jam performance can qualify as audition maybe? I also used to go to people who I wanted to play with and who didn't know me, and talk myself up, asking to sit in, stuff like that. Quite dodgy, but I was confident I can cut it, and it worked more often than not. Then it's the word of mouth, the main thing to be in college for.

I really don't think I would hire someone based on a jam alone. I've never been booked that way. Maybe sitting in with a band give a better idea of players strengths - but I don't think I had your chutzpah!

(Also I think British noses would be put out of joint but that kind of pushiness haha, but that's another story.)

[Hep To The Jive]

I really don't think I would hire someone based on a jam alone. I've never been booked that way. Maybe sitting in with a band give a better idea of players strengths - but I don't think I had your chutzpah!

(Also I think British noses would be put out of joint but that kind of pushiness haha, but that's another story.)

Yea, sitting in works much better than jam. Regardless, you gotta start somewhere, if you're new in town, hardly anyone knows you, you gotta introduce yourself, you gotta go around. Eventually people will know you, but I can't think of any other way.

Of course if you live where you're born the whole time, you can build it up slowly in more organic fashion starting from your college days.

[pamosmusic]

Honestly my experience is that music majors aren’t super unrealistic about the world. Beyond sort of normal 22-yo naïveté or whatever.

It’s generally the people knocking music ed who are unrealistic.

No one hires a teacher and says “gosh they can’t manage a class on day one.” They hire a teacher and say “we’ve got a first year on our third grade team, they’re going to need support”

No one hired an architect right out of college and then complains they can’t design a building when they get to the firm.

No one hires a third year law student and then complains they can’t manage a lawsuit right away.

But for some reason people say music majors come out of school and aren’t across the board killer professionals immediately and act like it’s an argument against studying.

The money thing is real, but I would say compensation is downstream of that attitude, rather than upstream. So there.

The most common major in America is business and honestly my (limited and anecdotal, but hey here we are) experience with business majors is that they might be the most unrealistic of the bunch. I’ve worked for so many small business where someone (often a relative) comes in after finishing business school, has no relevant subject matter expertise, and think their knowledge of business makes them qualified to run the show. I worked for a nursery and produce farm once. Boss’s son was a business major and came back to work after graduation. I came back to nursery after working on the farm one day to see him rearranging all the tables in the front

”hey man what are you doing.”

“Oh yeah so we really need to work on what people see when they drive by, research shows in businesses like this etc etc etc.”

I point over his shoulder at all the tables behind him, filled with scorched plants.

”dude you still have to water.”

[Tal_175]

So I would invert your point - many people who go to music school don't go because of the prestige it confers but rather to fulfil the prestige they've already acquired.

So it is their perception that if they were musicians without a music degree, their prestige will be unfulfilled.

[Tal_175]

For performance majors it doesn’t exist. Even fifteen years ago I never heard that once.

The other day, a friend of mine (who is not a musician) said that, one thing he liked about Radiohead was that they had music degrees. Unlike most popular bands, the members of Radiohead weren't self-taught musicians (I don't know if that's true or not). In some inexplicable way, that made him take the band more seriously.

I think you are underestimating the weight having a university degree in a subject still carries in the society. People still trust universities as institutions of high standard. It sort of grants the graduates the status of "not being hacks" and "not having important gaps in their training" right off the bat. That is a privilege. One can of course debate how big a privilege that is, how much it contributes to professional success etc. but what we are discussing here is is whether the perception of credibility plays a motivational role in deciding whether to get degree in music or follow alternative paths to musicianship.

[James W]

So it is their perception that if they were musicians without a music degree, their prestige will be unfulfilled.

Yeah, like icing on the cake or something. I think the point I was trying to make was that some people who pursue music at university are already highly prepared, so that the degree, while definitely something, is another feather in cap so to speak. I mean, privately educated people are disproportionately represented among musicians of most genres in the UK. And that's not to knock them, it's just to say that the system as currently manifested favours rich people who will have a different attitude to higher education than those who are not rich.

[CliffR]

Tal - you, who don't have a music degree, are skeptical of the professed motivations of people studying for a music degree. Do you suspect there might be an unconscious motivation underlying the reasoning you give for your skepticism?

[Tal_175]

1. I know players who can hear a guitarist play the wrong chord and, not only do they know the correct chord, but they know the name of the incorrect chord he just played.

The other day, I was thinking about starting a thread on this subject.

What is the correct chord that they are expecting to hear? A particular voicing? A particular bass note? In the context of past swing jazz, the rhythm section has a lot of freedom for how to arrange the harmony. Let's take a simple example, is FM9 without a root the "correct" chord for F major? How about if they add some inner voice movements and quartal voicings?

Let's be more specific. Let's say the band is playing two bars for F major than D7 after.
The bass plays:

C C# D E | F A Bb C | D ...

The guitar or piano plays (I am putting the vertical notes in the chord in curly brackets, top to bottom):

| {E A D G} {F C D A} | {C G D A} {Bb E A D} { C F A D} |

This is not an unreasonable accompaniment for soloist in the context of the intended harmony (even if the bass plays Bb on the third beat of the second F major bar, lol).

This is also true if the harmony is realized with counterpoint. Suppose there are two parts. It's not like one part is gonna go Root, Root, Root .. and the other one Third, Fifth, Third, Fifth. I mean that happens in some of the folk traditions. But in jazz, and in many modern music, the harmony is realized in more impressionistic ways that it's harder to define what constitutes the "correct chord", no?

[James W]

The other day, a friend of mine (who is not a musician) said that, one thing he liked about Radiohead was that they had music degrees. Unlike most popular bands, the members of Radiohead weren't self-taught musicians (I don't know if that's true or not). In some inexplicable way, that made him take the band more seriously.

I think you are underestimating the weight having a university degree in a subject still carries in the society. People still trust universities as institutions of high standard. It sort of grants the graduates the status of "not being hacks" and "not having important gaps in their training" right off the bat. That is a privilege. One can of course debate how big a privilege that is, how much it contributes to professional success etc. but what we are discussing here is is whether the perception of credibility plays a motivational role in deciding whether to get degree in music or follow alternative paths to musicianship.

AFAIK It's only Jonny Greenwood who has had formal music lessons/can read music.

Like I say, I decided to study music because I love music. Unfortunately I wasn't able to fulfil my perceived potential in doing my music degree, but I still remain sceptical about what you seem to be saying that I was motivated by the desire to be perceived as credible. Really, I definitely do not remember credibility being anywhere in my 18 year old mind in making that decision, but I do remember being fascinated with and loving music... listening, playing, following scores, acquiring CDs etc... Really, I had zero plan about what I wanted to do after the degree, no professional aspirations whatsoever. Probably except to further my education (I still might like one day to do a master's).

Either you can take what I'm saying at face value or you can persist in believing you have greater insight into my own (and others') secret subconscious motivations for getting a music degree.

[Tal_175]

Either you can take what I'm saying at face value or you can persist in believing you have greater insight into my own (and others') secret subconscious motivations for getting a music degree.

I wasn't really talking about you. But is it safe to generalize your circumstances to the society?

[James W]

I wasn't really talking about you. Is it safe to generalize your motivations to the society?

Is it safe to make any kind of generalisations like you want to do?

[Tal_175]

Is it safe to make any kind of generalisations like you want to do?

If you believe that having a university degree in a subject does not carry weight in the society, that's fine, you disagree. It's the same generalization, really.