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I don't know if someone has already posted this video, but the views expressed in it seem to get more widely held every year:
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05-28-2025 12:46 PM
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yawn
Originally Posted by Tal_175
1. every program at every school is going to produce some people who just know some things and aren't hacking it in the real world. Sucks, but it's not unique to music. As for the actual argument here ... he's had hundreds of musicians in his bands and opening for him and they all went to music school. Sooooo ... what? Either music is school is the best place to look for good musicians, or it's not a good place to look for good musicians and my dude doesn't know any other way. So he's either wrong on the merits, or he's not good at what he does. Not sure which. Don't particularly care. Also didn't Rabin go to Berklee? Whatever.
2. this is dumb. Berklee is a weird case, but all I'm getting from this is that he probably should be more discerning when he's looking for a partner. Or maybe his girlfriend should've been. Whatever.
3. correct. Music schools don't teach music business well, which sucks.
4. anyone going to college because of the name on the college and how it will look on their resume should think twice. Music school is no different. As for the bit about music degrees not counting. That's just horseshit. It might be true if you're looking to be a receptionist at a big law firm or something like that, but the argument he's making (that no one cares about your college) doesn't really cut both ways. No one cares about your college, but also they care SO MUCH that they'll deny you just for having a music degree. Also btw I had a music degree and got a job at Guitar Center. Maybe they just didn't like him. Can't imagine why.
5. this guy has nothing but insults for the people he went to school with, so maybe it's possible that he can't meet people at music school because he thinks he's better than everyone and they just don't like him.
6. true about it being a pause. There are cheaper ways to pause. Though I love the way he's talking about how people disregard music degrees because they don't learn real stuff, but also YUCK you'll have to take dumb stuff like History. Soooo ... I don't know man. Pick one.
7. Yeah totally. You can absolutely take lessons.
again ... YAWN.
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Yeah it might make you yawn but I suspect it is intended for impressionable prospective students or their parents who are gonna eat the bill: Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Cost of Attendance for 2025–2026 | Berklee
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Music school was the WORST
(I didn’t go.)
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Yeah I think it’s more useful and on point to say something like “I got a lot out of music school, but it can be very expensive and you should be extremely cautious with loans. Try a small school, a state school, applying liberally for scholarships, and/or finding a community college first either near your home, or in the market you want to be in.” Originally Posted by Tal_175
I wouldn’t spend four minutes trashing the girlfriend I had in music school. Partly because it’s mean and irrelevant. Partly because I married her and she’s a better musician than I am.Last edited by pamosmusic; 05-28-2025 at 01:56 PM.
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Sure it's not a good place to go if you have no imagination, drive and think that if the essential elements of being an artist are something you lack, and you simply can buy them... Originally Posted by Tal_175
I hate these kind of videos.
"I wanted a Grammy and I paid all this money but I didn't even get a waitress to go home with me" kind of bitterness.
It's a resource. Not an open door to your fantasies.
If you want to become a complete musician, you need knowledge, connections, opportunities, motivation, a chance to hone your skills on your own, a chance to develop your skills with others, and exposure to others who can form a supportive community. Confidence. A voice, Something personal to say.
Nowhere in the admissions catalogue does it guarantee all those things will be given to you as a pre-made meal. It's a cooking school, not a take out restaurant.
I will say there were lots of people like this guy at Berklee. Then there were also those who shut up and played their guitar. Guess which ones are actually enjoying their lives as working musicians?
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Yeah too many videos about music majors who end up waiting tables (lol LAME) and not enough videos about astrophysicists who go to school for astrophysics and end up being musicians instead. What utter embarrassing failure. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I didn't go to music school. Here are a few things that I seem to have missed that music school might have helped with.
1. Formal Ear Training.
2. Exposure to other players. I seem to assimilate things better when I see/hear another player do something up close.
3. Arranging.
4. External structure. That is, somebody forcing me to do the things I tend to resist.
5. More Formal Ear Training.
6. Hopefully, straightening out my picking.
7. Lots of playing at a young age when, maybe, things get into your brain a little more efficiently.
One of my friends dismisses classes saying "everything you need to know is on records". I think that may work better for some people than others.
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I'm really smiling when I read this list because it really hits areas I knew were important, had enough facility in to place highly upon being admitted (being kept out of "newbie" classes) and explored with expert guidance from people who knew material beyond an introductry "YouTube" level. For instance, I had a good ear before I went to music school, but I took a class in Atonal Ear Training and not only did it REALLY sharpen the sense of intervallic importance but I met some incredibly talented and musical students who I never would have had a chance to befriend, play with and create new sounds with. We wound up collaborating in writing compositions and arrangements that then informed richer approaches to improvisation. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
There were plenty of opportunities to waste my time: signing up for classes who were just BAD teachers (drug users who fell asleep in front of classes, sexual predators who were more interested in a particular girl rather than teaching the rest of us, teachers who were there cuz they graduated there and their father was on faculty...) but those are genuine mines in a loaded minefield- but a comprehensive curriculum taught by exceptional artists who could impart real life experience and lessons well beyond the syllabus... that was priceless.
And that list of things you cite, yeah +1 Bravo! Necessary stuff a good student takes for granted. I'm glad I went because everything on my list is in the body of knowledge I share with my students the moment any of it is relevant to a question they ask. I can be a better teacher because I can be a better musician and I can convey how exciting knowledge can be when applied in unexpected ways.
I'm not really a hard advocate for some music schools. I do think it's a dangerous jungle -and an unneccesarily expensive indulgence if you don't know how to learn.
As to the expense. HUGE drawback. I applied once. Got in easily. But didn't know enough to make myself exceptional to the powers that were. Didn't qualify for the big money. Didn't enroll. Took the next year working and practicing like a MF, with much of the materials I would have used (yes you can buy the course materials and learn them yourself) and because I wasn't in the "poseur level" sea of students, I learned a lot and became one of those "Knows enough so I don't NEED music school" people. I auditioned again the very next year (second time). I got in and they practically paid me to go.
And ALL of the classes were the cream of the crop and THAT's how you learn from and with the best; learning stuff 70% of the students don't even know to ask for. AND when you can do this, you get a free ride. It's that simple.
You can pay them to teach you everything. Or you can show them you deserve to know the good stuff and you'll do them proud. Learn the fundamentals, go to music school to hang with the best and really learn.
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A record is one moment in time. Recordings are slices in time you can learn from; for sure. But being a progressing and advancing guitarist means not learning what an artist played, but the infinitude of things they DIDN'T play. It's about developing options from your own set of filters. THat's a perspective that is much more easily grasped through everyday contact with a community of people who is living the choices and re-evaluating them every time they pick up their instrument. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Being a musician means embracing the bad days and learning more from that than a "good" or "classic" performance on a record.
Live music. A master class every time.
Finding a community you can grow into. Time well spent.
The wisdom of a master(s) who can answer the questions you don't even know how to ask. That's the humbling part of finding out what it's really about.
"Bricks don't hit back". Records don't smack you down because you're missing the point by listening for the wrong things. Ever listen to a recording with the person on the recording? SO much to know.
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It seems like you place a lot of importance to formal ear training. Is there a specific problem you are trying to solve that you encounter during performances? Like hearing extensions better, or hearing harmony from the bassline, or playing what you hear in your head? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
To me ear training is a life long process, not something that can be "solved" in a semester or two. Moreover, the gains will be lost quickly if not maintained (like sight reading). I worked on ear training in the past. Tried to get better at sight singing and naming intervals by ear. I did get better at doing those things but these skills did not help me in the context of jazz performance. What I find is that, the areas that I improve aurally are things that I get exposed to in my activities playing jazz guitar, not things I do to train my ears in an isolated formal way.
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Agree with this except for the last sentence. In transcribing I'm not 'playing jazz guitar' but by singing lines back and trying to recreate them on the guitar or keyboard (I use the latter for transcribing John Coltrane's 'Mars'). I also practice sight singing with the guitar to check if what I sing is correct, which again is not playing jazz guitar, but it is creating the crucial link between ears and fretboard. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Having done a project on college jazz guitar majors for my MA, I would say that the majority of respondents said that the most important thing to them was the community of students and teachers and the chance to play music as much as possible.
As for what is actually taught on the course, this can of course be learned. As for the teaching, there's the possibility of private lessons.
But as a non jazz school person - one thing I think that is very important that you pick up at music college which you don't so much in the wider world is the sort of code of norms and so on that college trained jazzers sort of learn. Silly things like counting in odd time tunes in 4/4, but also more important understanding expectations regarding rehearsals, what you can ask of people and what you can't. They also teach the students to define things - this is the shape of the project, this is where I'm planning to go with it. As many originals bands come from college ensembles the way that these things are organised has an impact on the wider musical world.
For years this fed into a sort of imposter syndrome not so much down to my playing, but because I did feel college trained players knew more of this stuff than I did. I worked it out... slowly haha.
The other side of it is that - everyone learns the same tunes, and some of same vocabulary and so on - so you can end up feeling you know nothing when in fact that's just the stuff they know. This became more obvious as I got older and more experienced, unsurprisingly. Of course, as a musician it's essential you develop these things yourself, and I think for most players these sorts of standardised college repertoire things fall away. I now see them as the result of young people who are still quite new to it all being fed stuff to help them get going and give them a good grounding in music, but I remember being intimidated by all of this.
Again, the repertoire lists and so on are available and are useful for being good at jams and straight ahead gigs so on - but ultimately I think it's much more important in the long run to have a clear vision of what you want to play - at the same time as being flexible enough to do lots of different things - learning music is a very important part of that of course. (There's also the tunes that get played heavily in certain jazz communities which you end up learning as a working player.) As Mike Moreno puts it, you can't make a career out of playing Stella by Starlight.
TBH most people are not fussed about the college thing if you can play. It can be a bit cliquey post-college, but give it a few years. The main thing as a non music college player I would tell myself is to ask more questions, seek more help and not feel like I need to do it all myself.
Given the amount Berklee charges I can see the argument for not going.... but it's not about what is taught there, really, is it? It's about what you learn there.Last edited by Christian Miller; 05-28-2025 at 05:29 PM.
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That's right. By jazz guitar related "activities", I meant things like working on playing what you hear Or working on hearing lines more clearly like listening to a phrase and singing it. Or play a chord and a bassline that goes with the harmony etc. Some of these things improve by exposure, like recognizing a certain chord quality. Other things require a more mindful attitude during practice sessions. It's useful to be attentive to practical shortcomings rather then to work on things academically in the hopes that they would be good for you in the future. Originally Posted by James W
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I am skeptical of people's explanations of their own motivations. Oftentimes, motivations are limbic responses—products of complex interactions between our animalistic drives and the social/cultural framework that surrounds us. Intellectually, people tend to latch onto an explanation that appeals to them. These motivations are often not as pure and tidy as the explanations we like to give. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I believe an important motivation for attending a music school is the pursuit of credibility and validation. The music industry and community function as a dominance hierarchy based on prestige, like all other social endeavors. Anyone serious about making a career in music is likely to be drawn to the asset a music degree promises. But it's not as sexy a motivation as wanting to be with a community. I am not dismissing the community aspect but the hierarchical aspect maybe a bit downplayed there.
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Yes, I have specific things in mind I wish I was better at. And, based on reports from musicians I respect about the benefit of years of formal ear training, I'm making the assumption that it might have helped. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Just a couple of ways.
1. I know players who can hear a guitarist play the wrong chord and, not only do they know the correct chord, but they know the name of the incorrect chord he just played.
2. Anybody can learn what a tune sounds like. If you play a Beatles tune for a non-musician that person will know if you play the correct chords or not. But, it takes a well trained ear and a well trained connection to the instrument for a sound to come to mind, at which point your fingers find the next chord with barely any thought, in any key. I believe this is why the wedding musicians of my NYC youth knew a zillion tunes and didn't care what key they were in.
3. Some players I know can hear a tune with complex harmony and immediately know the changes. Those players can hang in a situation, for example, where the pianist decides to a major reharm on the fly.
I watched a well known guitarist get called up out of the audience to play with a composer/guitarist who was famous for his harmonic palette and stretchy voicings. There was a chart. The guest guitarist didn't play at all for an entire chorus. Later, I asked him why. He explained that the composer didn't read or write music, so he expected the chart not to accurately reflect what the composer actually played. So, he listened for a chorus, found and corrected all the errors by ear and played it the composer's way on the subsequent choruses.
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Luckily it wasn't an MA in mind reading. But I think you might be reading more into what I said than I intended. Originally Posted by Tal_175
What they said is that the academic side of the syllabus was less important to them than the community and the playing.
(Of course they might have been saying what they thought I wanted to hear - maybe chord scale lessons and writing essays about jazz history were their secret, guilty pleasures haha.)
My experience has been is that most young musicians want to play, and hang, and academic work is an unwelcome distraction. So, seemed credible to me.
Undoubtedly there's competitiveness there too. OTOH a need for community is no less animalistic than anything else. From what I see, young jazz musicians seem to get that jazz is a social music. It's nice to see in this era of screens.
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Well you can believe what you like about what in general people's motivations are for attending music school. Originally Posted by Tal_175
I know what mine were - a love for and fascination with music. Nothing to do with community or hierarchy, I just couldn't see myself studying any other subject at that level.
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I can't read minds but I do have a theory of human mind that informs how I interpret human actions and words to the best of my ability. As I understood what you said was the most important reason the students were in a music program was community. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
That doesn't surprise me. Most people who pursue a degree has to endure things they find dry and uninspiring. But that's doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying. What I was saying is that there is an undeniable element of a sense of security and prestige a music degree promises for someone who aspires to make a career out of it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I think this MASSIVELY depends. Maybe for something like I Wanna Hold Your Hand, but it's entirely possible to overestimate the musicianship of the average person Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As far as jazz goes - I've transcribed a lot of wrong chords over the years and not realised until my ears improved. I bet everyone here has. The OG Real Book is famously full of quite basic errors, and these were Berklee students of the 70s back when it was pretty selective. Obviously they didn't realise the changes to Four were wrong. These weren't random schmos from off the street.
I think hearing a piece of music correctly and in full detail is quite a lot of the work, and people get a bit hung up on putting it onto the instrument or putting it onto paper both of which are finite closed skills and a lot more learnable than people think. Listening on the other hand, is infinite.
If transcribing some modern jazz solo, the challenges are always HEARING what's going on in some crazy pattern or voicing. Once I can hear that, putting it on the instrument, or paper, is relatively easy.
Why else do you think Tristano got his students to sing the whole solo through first?
I think they knew those songs really well because they heard them all the time.But, it takes a well trained ear and a well trained connection to the instrument for a sound to come to mind, at which point your fingers find the next chord with barely any thought, in any key. I believe this is why the wedding musicians of my NYC youth knew a zillion tunes and didn't care what key they were in.
Then you just practice getting them out on the instrument. It's not rocket science, although of course it is work. Probably better to do 15m of that a day than worry about note choices on chords.
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I’m 100% sure that credibility and validation were part of the motivation for me, but I think that’s more a motivation for anyone at all setting out to do anything.
What smart 18 yo doesn’t have a little chip on their shoulder to prove they can do the thing.
As for why it was music, all the stuff James said. Loved it. Fascinated by it. Wanted to learn all of it.
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The distinction here though is not whether one pursues a life long dedication to music or not.The distinction is how one does it. Going to music school or the more affordable alternative of "pausing" and taking lessons (as stated in the video). One advantage of music school people keep bringing up compared to pursuing music without a degree is the community element. In my opinion the security and prestige it provides as a motivation factor is being understated in this conversation. There is nothing wrong or shameful about the competitive advantages a degree provides being a motivation factor. The term "dominance hierarchy" is perhaps rubbing people the wrong way but it's an objective term that describes a core factor of the social organisation of (social) mammals. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Good for you! Originally Posted by Tal_175
Honestly, I'm not convinced these days that everyone actually has actually got to the 'theory of mind' stage vis a vis their fellow humans. I always thought they did. But these days I really wonder.
This was my exact wording: 'the majority of respondents said that the most important thing to them was the community of students and teachers and the chance to play music as much as possible.'As I understood what you said was the most important reason the students were in a music program was community.
Not precisely the same thing, right?
So at risk of repeating, FWIW my perception is that, yes indeed, jazz students like playing music and hanging out in the company of other jazz musicians and students, and like writing boring essays and attending lectures* rather less. So, yeah, I think that is actually what they thought. But that's a jump from the data.
What you are talking about is kind of a different topic. I didn't do a project on that. Although, that said, I did collaborate on another project where I had to listen to music students complain a lot, so maybe that's relevant? Seriously, I think a lot of students find music college a quite alienating, intimidating and emotionally difficult time. That is of course also often true of university. But music school perhaps more so? I don't have personal experience there though, so...
Do a PhD on it! (NO don't, seriously.)
We made the music schools more like this when it became necessary to accredit them so that could award degrees. There's an inherent tension.That doesn't surprise me. Most people who pursue a degree has to endure things they find dry and uninspiring. But that's doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying. What I was saying is that there is an undeniable element of a sense of security and prestige a music degree promises for someone who aspires to make a career out of it.
*depends on the lecture TBF
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I think this may be more your hang up than anything else. The term community of course does not preclude a dominance hierarchy. It just means a group of people brought together by geography, interests or some other shared characteristic. Originally Posted by Tal_175
In terms of what you get out of a music degree - I think it helps to get teaching jobs. Other than the comm.... social group.. whatever you want to call it, and connections you get from going, once you are in a wider comm... scene of musicians in for instance, a large city, no-one really asks where you went (unless they are like 20).
Prestige? I don't know. I think if you can play and you know people on the scene everyone assumes you went to one place or another. That's simply because most players have been. But by no means all.
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That said I do also understand that esp stateside a lot of the local scenes are college oriented. These are the sort of things that it’s wise to factor in a decision to study.
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