For those who went to music school, was it worth it?

[JazzerEU]

dl

[Christian Miller]

I'm reminded of my time in astrophysics school. There was a bunch of goths who called themselves the 'Dark Matters'. They'd go around bullying anyone who refused to believe the dark matter phenomenon was particle-based rather than possibly a result of an unknown modification to the law of gravity. They'd leave ink squibs in our lunchboxes. I remember they were egged on by some guy with an obviously fake name - sounded like an old car model or something - who claimed to be a stranded extra terrestrial. I remember once, after closing time at the pub, one of the Dark Matters shattered a pint glass against the wall and held the shards to my mate's throat because of an argument about the Hubble Constant. We talked him down, and after he wandered off and hijacked a double-decker London bus and drove himself home. This was his second time doing the same thing, and it made the national news. He got off because the judge was uncertain whether or not he'd been conscious at the time.

JazzerEU - apologies, this was just a silly attempt at humour, and I didn't mean to diminish the awful experiences you've had at music school in the US.

Did they inhabit a sort of Demi-Mond?

Good grief kill me now.


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[Christian Miller]

I'm reminded of my time in astrophysics school. There was a bunch of goths who called themselves the 'Dark Matters'. They'd go around bullying anyone who refused to believe the dark matter phenomenon was particle-based rather than possibly a result of an unknown modification to the law of gravity. They'd leave ink squibs in our lunchboxes. I remember they were egged on by some guy with an obviously fake name - sounded like an old car model or something - who claimed to be a stranded extra terrestrial. I remember once, after closing time at the pub, one of the Dark Matters shattered a pint glass against the wall and held the shards to my mate's throat because of an argument about the Hubble Constant. We talked him down, and after he wandered off and hijacked a double-decker London bus and drove himself home. This was his second time doing the same thing, and it made the national news. He got off because the judge was uncertain whether or not he'd been conscious at the time.

JazzerEU - apologies, this was just a silly attempt at humour, and I didn't mean to diminish the awful experiences you've had at music school in the US.

Tbf I never told you about the time a guy I knew (sax player) threatened Ray Davies when he was rude about Belgium. There’s more to the story.

That’s as fruity as it gets and it’s all vicarious and I wasn’t even there. My experiences have been rather boring.


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[JazzerEU]

Dl

[frabarmus]

I think the culture came from all the reasons you mentioned and the students felt like they had carte blanche to bully us because there were no repercussions from the professors. Like I mentioned, one professor seemed to encourage this type of discrimination saying that we don’t know how to read music and have no place in jazz.

I just cannot believe this kind of discrimination between instrumentalists (pianists vs guitarists etc.) being incouraged by a ..."professor" (?!?) ...someone, that is, who is supposed to be an adult and "mature" person! How is he even allowed to teach?? Shame on him.

[Stevebol]

Damn, the head of the astrophysics must've had some questions from law enforcement. That's unfortunate that fool didn't see any prison time. Off topic, but in my home country, in the last 10 years or so, we've let criminals roam wild in the open streets because of soft on crime policies. As a result we've seen an unprecedented spike in violent crime in the last decade because police funding has been slashed. When there's less police on the streets, criminals know they are more likely to get away.

Anyways, I'll leave it at that. During my time at university, while there were fights, none of it materialized into criminal charges being filed. One student in the department allegedly raped another female student in the department and was ultimately never charged. The prosecution must've felt like they didn't have enough evidence to get a guilty plea or win in court. She was bullied by the rest of the department and then transferred to a different university. We were never close but I heard through some guitarists I keep in touch with from university that she eventually died from a fentanyl overdose. Ultimately, this boils down to the profit motives of the university. I was given a survey a few years ago asking me about my time at this university and I had the option to respond on the basis without making my identity known. I didn't hold any punches back. The department chairs of these music departments have to see themselves like college football coaches developing players, instilling morals and ethics, and taking disciplinary action when there are incidents of personal misconduct and at the bare minimum have a personal code of conduct that everyone signs. Anything that would threaten a department losing a student would never be considered at profit driven universities because one student kicked out of the program for personal misconduct would usually mean less funding for the department.

Who was it that died of an overdose, the alleged victim or perp? I'm assuming the alleged victim.

[JazzerEU]

dl

[JazzerEU]

dl

[unknownguitarplayer]

I'm reminded of my time in astrophysics school. There was a bunch of goths who called themselves the 'Dark Matters'. They'd go around bullying anyone who refused to believe the dark matter phenomenon was particle-based rather than possibly a result of an unknown modification to the law of gravity.

As any physicist will tell you, the universe is a tough room to work!

[Stevebol]

It was the victim, to my knowledge the perp is still out there in the wild doing god knows what.

Sounds like a military brat stripper I met in Milwaukee 20 years ago. She probably raped half the girls in the place.

[Stevebol]

I'm watching a Soviet era propaganda film called Stalker. Best movie I've even seen. It won't make sense the first time through.
There are 3 main characters. The Stalker is a guide through a forbidden zone where there's a room where your wishes are granted.
He's not a musician. He thinks it's the lowest of arts and the least grounded in reality but it's the most vital.

The other characters are a writer and a professor/scientist. At one point they agree with the stalker. He's a family man and his wife doesn't want him guiding people through the forbidden zone. The writer is sort of a celebrity and has contempt for society.
The professor wants to blow up the room in the forbidden zone. The stalker tries to stop him.

We're just guides in a forbidden zone. We give people hope. Before all this technology like electricity we lived in the present. It wasn't about money and setting trends. Music could be written down and performed. Or there were oral traditions.
Maybe we're the world's oldest profession but many of us will do it without getting paid. Like many others I'm driven to make some kind of racket.

[CliffR]

I'm watching a Soviet era propaganda film called Stalker. Best movie I've even seen. It won't make sense the first time through.
There are 3 main characters. The Stalker is a guide through a forbidden zone where there's a room where your wishes are granted.
He's not a musician. He thinks it's the lowest of arts and the least grounded in reality but it's the most vital.

The other characters are a writer and a professor/scientist. At one point they agree with the stalker. He's a family man and his wife doesn't want him guiding people through the forbidden zone. The writer is sort of a celebrity and has contempt for society.
The professor wants to blow up the room in the forbidden zone. The stalker tries to stop him.

We're just guides in a forbidden zone. We give people hope. Before all this technology like electricity we lived in the present. It wasn't about money and setting trends. Music could be written down and performed. Or there were oral traditions.
Maybe we're the world's oldest profession but many of us will do it without getting paid. Like many others I'm driven to make some kind of racket.

That's not actually a propaganda movie. It's based on Roadside Picnic by the Strugatsky brothers. The premise is that some travelling aliens briefly visited earth at a number of these forbidden 'zones', leaving behind what to them was junk (as folks leaving behind litter after a picnic) and which the stalkers aim to retrieve for money. The zones, and the artefacts, don't obey earthly physical laws and are really dangerous. Great book, but I've yet to watch the movie.

[Stevebol]

That's not actually a propaganda movie. It's based on Roadside Picnic by the Strugatsky brothers. The premise is that some travelling aliens briefly visited earth at a number of these forbidden 'zones', leaving behind what to them was junk (as folks leaving behind litter after a picnic) and which the stalkers aim to retrieve for money. The zones, and the artefacts, don't obey earthly physical laws and are really dangerous. Great book, but I've yet to watch the movie.

It's a lot to absorb. I was trying to simplify one aspect of the plot. It's making more sense the 2nd time through but not nearly enough.
The movie was made in 1979. Chernobyl happened in 86'. I played several of the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. video games.
At some level everything is propaganda but it's a great movie.

[CliffR]

I'll have to get hold of it. I really enjoyed his adaptation of Solaris.

I've heard of S.T.A.L.K.E.R., but never played. Not long before it came out I'd been working on a new rendering technique for a game called Perfect Dark Zero. I couldn't get it to work fast enough so dropped it for something simpler and not as good looking The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. guys published an article explaining all the tips and tricks they used to get the same technique working in their game. I went back to mine, taking notice of their advice, and was able to get it to work. So we shipped a great lucking game. (Gameplay was not so great, however....)

[Hep To The Jive]

That's not actually a propaganda movie. It's based on Roadside Picnic by the Strugatsky brothers. The premise is that some travelling aliens briefly visited earth at a number of these forbidden 'zones', leaving behind what to them was junk (as folks leaving behind litter after a picnic) and which the stalkers aim to retrieve for money. The zones, and the artefacts, don't obey earthly physical laws and are really dangerous. Great book, but I've yet to watch the movie.

Exactly right! I've red the book and watched the movie, it's as far from propaganda as it gets. In fact Tarkovsky the director was on 'non desirable' list by the Soviet government, they made it very hard for him to work, and eventually he had to leave the country. His last movies were made in exile in Europe I think.

[Stevebol]

I'll have to get hold of it. I really enjoyed his adaptation of Solaris.

I've heard of S.T.A.L.K.E.R., but never played. Not long before it came out I'd been working on a new rendering technique for a game called Perfect Dark Zero. I couldn't get it to work fast enough so dropped it for something simpler and not as good looking The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. guys published an article explaining all the tips and tricks they used to get the same technique working in their game. I went back to mine, taking notice of their advice, and was able to get it to work. So we shipped a great lucking game. (Gameplay was not so great, however....)

Never saw the original Solaris but the George Clooney remake was excellent. I think S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was made by a very small team.
I hate the Yakuza series. They pollute young minds.
My favorite game is Fallout: New Vegas. The new TV series sucks. I hate it because these are troubled times and dirty bombs are no joke. Neither are land mines.

My computer is good but 13 years old. I might try Alan Wake 2 when I get a new one.
I'm using granular synthesis on one song and my computer had trouble rendering it. I had to do a pre-render of a track.

Is Joanna Dark seeing anyone? Looks like a fun girl. I'm going to need a bodyguard if I keep talking trash.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I'm watching a Soviet era propaganda film called Stalker. Best movie I've even seen. It won't make sense the first time through.
There are 3 main characters. The Stalker is a guide through a forbidden zone where there's a room where your wishes are granted.
He's not a musician. He thinks it's the lowest of arts and the least grounded in reality but it's the most vital.

The other characters are a writer and a professor/scientist. At one point they agree with the stalker. He's a family man and his wife doesn't want him guiding people through the forbidden zone. The writer is sort of a celebrity and has contempt for society.
The professor wants to blow up the room in the forbidden zone. The stalker tries to stop him.

We're just guides in a forbidden zone. We give people hope. Before all this technology like electricity we lived in the present. It wasn't about money and setting trends. Music could be written down and performed. Or there were oral traditions.
Maybe we're the world's oldest profession but many of us will do it without getting paid. Like many others I'm driven to make some kind of racket.

May I use this as a song line? "We're just guides in a forbidden zone. We give people hope."

[Stevebol]

May I use this as a song line? "We're just guides in a forbidden zone. We give people hope."

I don't know if I made that up but sure.

I checked. Nothing came up.

[CliffR]

Never saw the original Solaris but the George Clooney remake was excellent. I think S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was made by a very small team.
I hate the Yakuza series. They pollute young minds.
My favorite game is Fallout: New Vegas. The new TV series sucks. I hate it because these are troubled times and dirty bombs are no joke. Neither are land mines.

My computer is good but 13 years old. I might try Alan Wake 2 when I get a new one.
I'm using granular synthesis on one song and my computer had trouble rendering it. I had to do a pre-render of a track.

Is Joanna Dark seeing anyone? Looks like a fun girl. I'm going to need a bodyguard if I keep talking trash.

I enjoyed the Clooney version, but but liked the Tarkovsky version much more. Perfect Dark Zero was also made by a small team (30 or so by the end). My last game project was an Indiana Jones title at LucasArts and the team was already over 100 people in size during preproduction if I remember correctly. Not sure about Jo's relationship status, but she is apparently making a comeback .

[charleyrich99]

What's wrong with block chord solos? I do them on my gig and no one has threatened me, yet...

It does make me crazy when the piano player tries to play chords during that solo... I told him to stay out of my octave?

[voxo]

[Marty Grass]

I have a different story. I wanted to go to jazz school at either North Texas State Univ or Berklee. I didn't have the money. I joined the Air Force to get the GI Bill and was trained as a medic. The Air Force paid 3/4ths of my tuition while I worked as a medic provided that school didn't interfere with my job. After four years I had a bachelor's degree and had been accepted into a medical school.

Many years later I study music appreciation as best I can while working full time.

[2bornot2bop]

Good on the OP for creating a secondary profession in a European country! Personally I envy you having the ability to travel to a different country in a matter of a few hours. I always desired to live in Europe, partly because of its actual history. Personally, after spending a year abroad in Eastern Europe I don’t find life in the USA all that rewarding. So yes, you’re living a rewarding life in my eyes.

[Jimmy blue note]

If you want to become a great player/performer, I think it's essential to be a part of a like-minded and challenging community because the state of the art is advancing constantly. I think this is more important if you want to use a more modern language.
Philly was a great town for me to learn bebop in because there was an active club and jam scene I could learn from masters who were the real deal. But while Jimmy Bruno was a central figure in the teaching scene there, he also looked down on more "progressive" concepts he had not use for-and the theory behind them. So for that scene, music school was not such a pre-requisite.

I happen to like players who are redefining the language and because so many of those people (in the NY scene) had solid fundamentals that a good music school can provide, being in a serious music school, with other serious players, and a peripheral scene where you can find others to hone your skills OUTSIDE of class...that's important.

Boston was a good city for me to find that. Amazing people who were driven (Bryan Baker, Wolfgang Musthspiel, Kurt Rosenwinkel and Julian Lage were more valuable people to learn from as peers than most teachers, to be honest). A good school is a magnet for the top artists in the world, and they all want to play.
Berklee and NEC can give you a great academic springboard for foundational ideas-although Berklee has a fair percentage of poseurs who drag down the level of teaching in the classrooms.
I learned more from going to the clubs and attending the gigs where faculty regularly played. That's the real classroom. Jerry Bergonzi and George Garzone on a weekly basis. When I first came to town, Mick Goodrick played weekly for free at a tiny club, and decades later he played weekly unannounced if you knew where to go. Tim Miller was a regular name in small clubs. In NY, it's ridiculous, Ben Monder, Adam Rogers, Mike Moreno and everybody for the cost of a drink. Master classes nightly.
In a good jazz town, I could have gotten the highest education by tapping the talents of the students and teachers outside of the classrooms and arranging private lessons with the teachers on my own. But that takes a lot of connecting.

At a school with a diverse programming, one can get a deep immersion in classical music by attending the near nightly recitals of Western classical music performances, most of them for free. Believe me, knowledge of the tradition and history of classical music deeply informs concepts of composition, improvisational language, the arc of idea development, possibilities of harmony, voice leading by ear, and a string quartet is a how-to in player interaction.

Music schools are competitive in scholarship allotments but if you're good enough (study and work hard enough before you walk in your first day) you can get all the benefits of connecting, forming bonds, hanging with teachers and getting discovered, and it's paid for. THEN a music school is worth it.

Know more when you audition than most students who are graduating, have a solid musical identity and music school is a rich mixture that can fuel a solid career in the fast lane.

If you don't know where to begin and you want to know what it's all about, you can also go to music school to find out, but it'll cost you, and if you don't have the mix of playing with really good peers, it's an extremely expensive way to learn to play.

However if your school provides diverse programs in Business, engineering, teaching, or even tech skills, there could be a course to a viable future.
If you want to learn in a school, I think you need to know which teachers to study with AHEAD OF TIME, and which ones to avoid, especially if you're female. It's a mine field and some schools have an incestious revolving door graduate/teach policy that promotes less than insightful faculty. Some schools will hire big names with known sexual predatory propensities because they're famous. 'gotta do your homework.
To be a player, it takes full time devotion, before, during and after school. Most people are not able to embrace that sensibility so they fail. And music schools are more than happy to feed themselves on your delusions on your road to failure and debt.

That's my experience.

[ccroft]

Solid post Jimmy. As a youngster in '71 I really wanted to attend Berklee, but Boston is a long way from Vancouver Island. I couldn't pay for the plane ticket, let alone the rest of it. I took a correspondence course. Paper in the mail. How quaint!

I was allowed to audit a few semesters of the jazz course at Portland State through the good graces of a sax player I knew who studied there. He convinced the school they needed a different guitar player for the band. (I still kinda feel bad for the guy that got bumped). I got a lot of real world rehearsal and performance experience. And I got to meet and play with a bunch of people I wouldn't have otherwise. I spent a ton of time jamming and learning in the practice rooms with fellow students, some of which I went on to gig with down the road.

There were workshops with Stan Kenton and a few others I can't think of just now. I got to hear various types of music that were totally new to me. Phillip Glass for EG when he was touring with an 'orchestra' of a half dozen or so Farfisas.

I sometimes look back and think if Portland State was that good for me, how much better would Berklee have been considering the level of talent and the stronger music scene in a bigger city like Boston.

The community might be the best reason to go to the right music school. Too bad it went so weird for the OP.