Do I Need A Hollow/Semi?

[billkath]

Shall we keep an eye on the Hofner website and see if they acknowledge their "bastard child"?

Ha Ha!! Yes!
If I were Hofner, I'd have a seperate website for the cheaper stuff. There is no way I'd let them sit beside my prestige and custom shop models. I think my marketing strategy would be similar to Fender with the Starcaster range. I'd use my hard-won name to sell these guitars to "budding musicians". I'd make a big deal about how these guitars go through rigourous checks etc.(which is what they are doing, I suppose, with the set-up comments?)
Lets be clear, though-I'd imagine that these guitars are not ultra-cheap knock-off copies with weird and wonderful new names. Hofner, like Fender with the Starcaster range, want "some" quality to be there, to protect and promote their brand (and profit-level). I'd imagine that it's quality is much higher than the cheaper knock-offs-about the quality of the Epiphones and Ibanez models at a similar 350-600 dollars range? Maybe Starcaster is not the range I should have suggested-maybe Squier by Fender is a better choice? Playable, solid. Just not a collectors item.

[franco6719]

Yes, to be precise, you need a Guild X-175 hollowbody in order to play real jazz.

[randyc]

Oh, if I only had one <sigh> actually, that should be a higher priority than the New President. There have been a couple recently with very good prices on eBay ..

[Scrybe]

I'm seriously tempted to use the interest free finance to get the Godin since watching youtube demos of it. Not before testing it myself, of course. But still...

[randyc]

Mister Beaumont is a thoughtful man, educated and intelligent not to mention a good musician. He plays a Godin and you could do far worse than to send him a PM asking him to describe the instrument with frankness. Although a personal trial is always preferable, the next best thing in these days of internet commerce is the advice of a trusted performer.

[mr. beaumont]

gee, thanks randy! i'm blushing a bit....

but yes, absolutely scrybe--ask me anything you want. While the Godin is by no means a "be all end all" instrument, I think it's among the nicest available in it's price bracket, and does a very good job capturing a very specific, old-school vibe, IMHO. Looked at from that latter perspective, it actually has no direct competitors, which make it pretty unique.

[Scrybe]

yeah, old school is def what I'm after! gah, I'm soooo tempted by this guitar.....

Mr. B did you try the different models before buying? Any major sound differences/playability diffs between them? I'm leaning towards the cutaway option, but I'm keeping an open mind. Hoping the local store has one in stock tomorrow for me to try, but I doubt they'll have cutaway and non-cutawy models out. Which did you go for, and why?

Also, my current amps are a Marshall JTM45 combo and a Fender Blues Jr. Been using the Marshall lately while ordering new tubes for my Fender and find it has some nice jazzy tones in it, but it's way too loud to really gig with for jazz stuff right now. Never selling it tho - picked it up for £200 a few years back and they go for £800-1100 new now, but I'm really into it. Just wondering whether those amps (and the Fender in particular) will sound like in a pretty traditional jazz setting (not trad jazz, but 'acoustic' bop-modal-cool sorta sounds). Any thoughts? I've been vaguely considering getting a 5W or so tube amp for practice and recording - something like the Blackstar head and cab, or the Fender Champion 600 combo. Are there any small amps that would suit jazzing and fall within that price range (£100-400)? Or will the Blues Jr do fine?

And lastly, the big jazzing question for me at the moment.......will I be able to do Jim Hall on it?The sound clips I've heard/seen on youtube indicate it'll do some very nice jazzy tones, but his sound really cuts through on solos - it's really glossy when he solos. The demos highlight its comping capabilities, but I'd be very interested to hear how it holds up soloing in a band setting.

Thx!

[mr. beaumont]

I didn't have the chance to play the cutaway model until after I purchased my non-cut. Very nice guitar--seemed to have a little less acoustic sound, but it was probably also strung up with lighter strings than what I have on mine, so it's not a good comparison really. If they made a single pickup cutaway version, I'd be even more excited.

I'm a fan of the blues junior for a jazz setting--I have one, and do use it from time to time, especially for jam sessions. I find it's loud enough to keep up with a band, unless there's a REALLY hard hitting drummer (the kind you probably will never come across in a jazz setting)

Jim Hall tone? hmmm...early or later? Early, heck yeah. Later, not so much. A solid state "jazz" amp (like my polytone) gets me a little closer to that vibe, but not completely.

I like this guitar best with my henriksen right now. I like a little outboard reverb to open it up a little. that said, it's sounding awfully good this evening thru the blues junor here at my house...I'm getting a very jimmy raney/rene thomas vibe tonight.

my wife did buy me one of those champion 600's as a surprise gift a few year ago (she had overheard me talking champs with a friend, unfortunately, we were talking blackface vs. silverface, but i loved the effort) and the godin sounds surprisingly good thru it--at low volume. Every other guitar i've plugged into it sounds like complete garbage, and if you crank that thing up, be prepared for some of the worst overdrive this side of a Roland JC-120! Overall, it's a cute little paperweight my wife allows me to keep in our living room.

overall, i like solid state for practice...I've been lazy lately and been bringing the lunchbox everywhere--rehearsals, lessons at folks houses, school, etc...makes lifting the blues junior feel like hauling a twin!

[lpdeluxe]

I have a Blues Jr and it does fine. Its lack of the really distinctive tone of other Fenders works in its favor, allowing you to bring your own tone to the gig.

It is also lightweight: mine has become my grab and go amp, even though I have three other Fender guitar amps, all of which have great sounds.

[randyc]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

... Been using the Marshall lately while ordering new tubes for my Fender and find it has some nice jazzy tones in it, but it's way too loud to really gig with for jazz stuff right now...

You may want to think about that for a moment ...

Unless one requires distortion (e.g. fusion styles) it's not possible to own an amplifier that is way too loud for jazz (although it is not only possible but probable to own an amplifier that is inconvenient to transport).

The definition of "headroom" is the difference between maximum amplifier power and the power that is actually required for performance. That is why the Fender Twin, the JC-120, and so forth, have been the standard for jazz guitarists for decades. Zero distortion at normal playing level = maximum headroom.

cheers,
randyc

[fep]

Randy,

I believe there is a certain volume required before a amplifier and/or speaker 'comes alive'. I don't know if it's the amplifier or the speaker... but it just sounds wimpy until you reach a certain volume, at least that's been my experience.

Does a larger amplifier like a high powered Marshall require more volume before it hits that 'comes alive' state than the volume for a smaller amplifier to hit that 'comes alive' state?

[randyc]

The ideal amplifier/loudspeaker is linear and doesn't include a "step function" or a "threshold" for proper performance UNLESS one is concerned more about the contribution of the amplifier/loudspeaker <distortion> and less concerned about the sound of the guitar.

The jazz artists that I most admire selected amplifiers that accurately reproduced the sound of the instrument that they selected - the amplifier contributed/detracted nothing (intentionally) from their guitar.

Younger musicians are more accustomed to modifying their tonal characteristics with the amplifier hence the selection of the guitar ceases to be of prime importance. The norm seems to be to spend more money on the amplifier than the guitar - tail wagging the dog, IMO.

[medblues]

When we say almost any guitar can be used to achieve a traditional jazz tone and that one does not have to have a solid-wood hollow-bodied instrument, don't we imply the pickups and the amp has more to do with it than the acoustic sound of the guitar ? Many people perceive a sweet spot for pickups (distance from the strings) and amps (volume) in clean, non-distorted contexts. This must have something to do with Fletcher Munson curves which change with loudness.

[lpdeluxe]

A good point. The constantly recurring question about amplifiers at one of the forums I frequent is "How does it do with pedals?" They are concerned that they will lose their unique, signature sound (usually meaning chain-saw distortion and utter lack of tone, but then I'm an old guy) by getting an amp that has so much personality of its own that their carefully assembled collection of distortion pedals won't sound annoying enough.

The other frequent question is, "What does __________ sound like dimed?" You understand that "dimed" means everything turned up to 10, including (especially) the volume. Perhaps needless to say, my single answer (were I to share it) would be "I have no idea."

I prefer to find a guitar that I like (or, in the case of my 335, love) and then find an amplifier that brings out its best qualities. This is, obviously, not a technical nor intellectual exercise: it involves playing music through the small herd of amps that I own, finding the closest to what I want, and then tweaking its settings.

There are tones that I like, and tones that I don't find useful; I tend to acquire Fender amps in various sizes because I can depend on Fender to build amplifiers with a sound I like.

Since I play a variety of material, in a variety of venues, sometimes the amp of choice is my Blues Jr; sometimes it's my Band-Master head + 15" speaker cabinet; sometimes it's something in between. Headroom is a function of the room you are playing in, the size of the audience, whether you are playing with a loud drummer, and the gain characteristics of your amp. Since, as a general rule, more power = more weight, lower power amps are my usual choice (disclaimer: old ain't dead -- when I want to play loud music, I pull out my bass and 300 watt Mesa/Boogie and head down the hill where the guy with the PA and drum kit in his recreation room lives).

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by medblues

When we say almost any guitar can be used to achieve a traditional jazz tone and that one does not have to have a solid-wood hollow-bodied instrument, don't we imply the pickups and the amp has more to do with it than the acoustic sound of the guitar ? Many people perceive a sweet spot for pickups (distance from the strings) and amps (volume) in clean, non-distorted contexts. This must have something to do with Fletcher Munson curves which change with loudness.

maybe we're simply saying that there is sufficient range in our conception of "traditional jazz tone" that solidbodies can satisfy at least part of this conception. And we're also maybe acknowledging that, for most listeners, the nuances aren't that important while most of us, however anal about tone, simply lack the skills and/or high end gear to really record ourselves to a truly professional standard. But I definitely hear something distinctive in the sounds of Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell, etc., that my lowly solidbodies (as much as I love them and as much as they'll suffice for the time being) simply cannot match. I an already get a traditional jazz tone, but I'm after a more specific traditional jazz hollow body tone and, in that sonic space, solidbodies just don't cut it.

[randyc]

I don't disagree with individual perception of what sounds "good" but it is not supported by measurement - there is no difference in tonal quality from an amplifier/loudspeaker played quietly and one played loudly except for distortion.

The fact is that most (but not all) are conditioned to desire a slight amount of distortion. The general explanation for this (i.e. the harmonic relationships, particularly the second harmonic) is almost always incorrect, I posted a lengthy discussion here on why the "common knowledge" can't be correct many months ago.

Those who tend to prefer Polytones (as a generic example) over Deluxe Reverbs (another generic example) are intolerant of distortion and vice versa. Not that there's anything wrong with either school of thought - it's just personal taste. Also (referring to another point above), the camp that most prefers tube amplifiers (and I have many more tube amplifiers than solid-state, by the way) can "usually" be content with a lower cost instrument - frequently even a solid body instrument. This is because the amplifier mostly determines the sonic quality that they perceive to be musically appealing. (Obviously this is a simplified generality, probably characterized more by the exception than the rule ... although I love tube amps and have a lot of them, I'm also a guitar snob, to my wife's dismay.)

There is a place for both types of amplification, linear and non-linear. And some of my favorites came down on both sides (Wes was as clean as he could possibly be and Kenny - especially some of the older stuff - frequently produced that "honky", compressed sound that results from a vacuum tube amplifier with inadequate headroom).

My personal opinion, however, is that for JAZZ, if there can only be one type of amplification affordable, a fairly high power solid-state amplifier is preferable. For situations where other musical genres are required, then the Fender Deluxe Reverb would always be my numero uno selection.

cheers,
randyc

[randyc]

Originally Posted by medblues

When we say almost any guitar can be used to achieve a traditional jazz tone and that one does not have to have a solid-wood hollow-bodied instrument, don't we imply the pickups and the amp has more to do with it than the acoustic sound of the guitar ? Many people perceive a sweet spot for pickups (distance from the strings) and amps (volume) in clean, non-distorted contexts. This must have something to do with Fletcher Munson curves which change with loudness.

I'm sorry - I missed this when I skimmed the earlier posts. This could indeed be a valid and reasonable explanation for why people prefer that the level be at a certain threshold. I say "could" because mostly I personally believe that adequate level is determined by the signal to noise ratio of the musical environment (please excuse me, any drummers that may be reading this, for lumping you in with the "noise" part of the expression).

[lpdeluxe]

...although loud drummers are the most frequent motivation for getting a more powerful amp. Note that I say, "loud." One of the best drummers of my acquaintance (gigged with him for a long time) was not loud, was not busy, and we were all able to turn down on the band stand. He replaced a lady who had aggression issues -- take Keith Moon and make him louder, that was her.

These days I usually play without drums, or with an electronic drummer who knows how to **NOT** turn it up, so my Blues Jr is adequate. Otherwise I get out the artillery.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Not so much in jazz bands (because we're so cool!), but in rock bands you often get guitar "arms races" where one guitar cranks it so the other has to crank it and so it goes...

[randyc]

GREAT post, ingeneri, funny but too true !!!

[rbdeli]

This was my 17 year old son's Christmas present. There were lots of great comments on the internet about this instrument. Could not find anything else close to that in this price range and until he can make some serious money on his own, that's the best he's going to do for a while.

So what do you think of it?

Got one selling on eBay auction for $250.00, but I doubt the price stays that way!

Epiphone ES175

Originally Posted by billkath

I won't offer any advice on actual models, as that's a very personal thing. However-the question was "Do I need a Hollow/Semi?", and I find that I just play in a different style when using my Epi ES175 compared to any of my other guitars. I'm rarely tempted to play rock and roll on it (even though it sounds great with a bit of slap-back on the bridge pickup!!). It's like-you know the way you'd play a 12-string differently than a 6 string acoustic? To me-it just encourages you to play more jazzily. Hand me a Les Paul and I tend to play in a Rock style. Hand me a Tele and I tend to chicken pick and double stop. I don't know why that is-perhaps I need some treatment!!
So-My advise-get yourself over to India and lose that other Kidney you don't use!!!! I'd go hollow over semi-purely because you have other guitars to do everything else apart from Jazz.

[randyc]

Without commenting on the instrument, I'd like to say that your son has a pretty nice Dad !

[billkath]

Originally Posted by rbdeli

This was my 17 year old son's Christmas present. There were lots of great comments on the internet about this instrument. Could not find anything else close to that in this price range and until he can make some serious money on his own, that's the best he's going to do for a while.

So what do you think of it?

Got one selling on eBay auction for $250.00, but I doubt the price stays that way!

Epiphone ES175

I've done some work on mine-replaced the nut, bridge and saddles etc, but it sounds lovely and plays great. That's a good price for a guitar in this class.

[rbdeli]

I don't know that it's so much about being a nice Dad or that I got sick of hearing that heavy metal, jet black v-style guitar. Since the new guitar, he's playing much better music, too

As a trumpet player, I know that it's not easy to get a good sounding instrument for under $1,000. The $500 Epiphone ES-175 will have to be good enough for him, until he can work and earn enough to afford something better!

Originally Posted by randyc

Without commenting on the instrument, I'd like to say that your son has a pretty nice Dad !

[Scrybe]

I now want the Kingpin. And a flamenco guitar.

Anyone feel like pulling a bank robbery with me? I'll take enough for those two, a few pedals and a couple of amps, plus a modest new car, and you can keep the rest. Deal? Anyone know any low security, high cash banks? Or shops even?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

For the flamenco guitar, some sort of Zorro escapade seems called for.

[C.A.JO.]

Originally Posted by randyc

Acquiring a quality archtop is the most guilt-free purchase one is ever likely to experience - seriously. Consider how much one invests in an automobile that lasts for a few years (requiring constant operational and maintenance cost) compared to how little most of us are willing to pay for an instrument that will last a lifetime

+1

I agree with this completely. Save up the needed money for the guitar of your dreams!

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

For the flamenco guitar, some sort of Zorro escapade seems called for.

Is that a request to be part of my heist team? I have the costumes ready...

[ES125er]

Scrybe, and don't whereabout you are in NW UK, but if you can go there Foulds Guitars (in Derby) usually have a pretty nice selection of jazz guitars (and amps).

If I were you, I would try to drive there and spend the day in their shop playing everything. You don't have to buy, but it will give you a decent idea of what your options are, either within you current budget or if you decide to wait (artcore, Kingpin, guitars with floating or built-in pickups, semi and full hollows, etc...).

For an overview, try to find their youtube videos where they demo their guitars and amps.

There might be similar shops around your place, of course. I'm just not familiar with NW UK.

[ES125er]

Oh, and by the way, you don't need a hollow or semi-hollow.

But it's OK to want one anyway.