Do I Need an Archtop or Semi-Hollow Guitar?

[randyc]

I don't disagree with individual perception of what sounds "good" but it is not supported by measurement - there is no difference in tonal quality from an amplifier/loudspeaker played quietly and one played loudly except for distortion.

The fact is that most (but not all) are conditioned to desire a slight amount of distortion. The general explanation for this (i.e. the harmonic relationships, particularly the second harmonic) is almost always incorrect, I posted a lengthy discussion here on why the "common knowledge" can't be correct many months ago.

Those who tend to prefer Polytones (as a generic example) over Deluxe Reverbs (another generic example) are intolerant of distortion and vice versa. Not that there's anything wrong with either school of thought - it's just personal taste. Also (referring to another point above), the camp that most prefers tube amplifiers (and I have many more tube amplifiers than solid-state, by the way) can "usually" be content with a lower cost instrument - frequently even a solid body instrument. This is because the amplifier mostly determines the sonic quality that they perceive to be musically appealing. (Obviously this is a simplified generality, probably characterized more by the exception than the rule ... although I love tube amps and have a lot of them, I'm also a guitar snob, to my wife's dismay.)

There is a place for both types of amplification, linear and non-linear. And some of my favorites came down on both sides (Wes was as clean as he could possibly be and Kenny - especially some of the older stuff - frequently produced that "honky", compressed sound that results from a vacuum tube amplifier with inadequate headroom).

My personal opinion, however, is that for JAZZ, if there can only be one type of amplification affordable, a fairly high power solid-state amplifier is preferable. For situations where other musical genres are required, then the Fender Deluxe Reverb would always be my numero uno selection.

cheers,
randyc

[randyc]

When we say almost any guitar can be used to achieve a traditional jazz tone and that one does not have to have a solid-wood hollow-bodied instrument, don't we imply the pickups and the amp has more to do with it than the acoustic sound of the guitar ? Many people perceive a sweet spot for pickups (distance from the strings) and amps (volume) in clean, non-distorted contexts. This must have something to do with Fletcher Munson curves which change with loudness.

I'm sorry - I missed this when I skimmed the earlier posts. This could indeed be a valid and reasonable explanation for why people prefer that the level be at a certain threshold. I say "could" because mostly I personally believe that adequate level is determined by the signal to noise ratio of the musical environment (please excuse me, any drummers that may be reading this, for lumping you in with the "noise" part of the expression).

[lpdeluxe]

...although loud drummers are the most frequent motivation for getting a more powerful amp. Note that I say, "loud." One of the best drummers of my acquaintance (gigged with him for a long time) was not loud, was not busy, and we were all able to turn down on the band stand. He replaced a lady who had aggression issues -- take Keith Moon and make him louder, that was her.

These days I usually play without drums, or with an electronic drummer who knows how to **NOT** turn it up, so my Blues Jr is adequate. Otherwise I get out the artillery.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Not so much in jazz bands (because we're so cool!), but in rock bands you often get guitar "arms races" where one guitar cranks it so the other has to crank it and so it goes...

[randyc]

GREAT post, ingeneri, funny but too true !!!

[rbdeli]

This was my 17 year old son's Christmas present. There were lots of great comments on the internet about this instrument. Could not find anything else close to that in this price range and until he can make some serious money on his own, that's the best he's going to do for a while.

So what do you think of it?

Got one selling on eBay auction for $250.00, but I doubt the price stays that way!

Epiphone ES175

I won't offer any advice on actual models, as that's a very personal thing. However-the question was "Do I need a Hollow/Semi?", and I find that I just play in a different style when using my Epi ES175 compared to any of my other guitars. I'm rarely tempted to play rock and roll on it (even though it sounds great with a bit of slap-back on the bridge pickup!!). It's like-you know the way you'd play a 12-string differently than a 6 string acoustic? To me-it just encourages you to play more jazzily. Hand me a Les Paul and I tend to play in a Rock style. Hand me a Tele and I tend to chicken pick and double stop. I don't know why that is-perhaps I need some treatment!!
So-My advise-get yourself over to India and lose that other Kidney you don't use!!!! I'd go hollow over semi-purely because you have other guitars to do everything else apart from Jazz.

[randyc]

Without commenting on the instrument, I'd like to say that your son has a pretty nice Dad !

[billkath]

This was my 17 year old son's Christmas present. There were lots of great comments on the internet about this instrument. Could not find anything else close to that in this price range and until he can make some serious money on his own, that's the best he's going to do for a while.

So what do you think of it?

Got one selling on eBay auction for $250.00, but I doubt the price stays that way!

Epiphone ES175

I've done some work on mine-replaced the nut, bridge and saddles etc, but it sounds lovely and plays great. That's a good price for a guitar in this class.

[rbdeli]

I don't know that it's so much about being a nice Dad or that I got sick of hearing that heavy metal, jet black v-style guitar. Since the new guitar, he's playing much better music, too

As a trumpet player, I know that it's not easy to get a good sounding instrument for under $1,000. The $500 Epiphone ES-175 will have to be good enough for him, until he can work and earn enough to afford something better!

Without commenting on the instrument, I'd like to say that your son has a pretty nice Dad !

[Scrybe]

I now want the Kingpin. And a flamenco guitar.

Anyone feel like pulling a bank robbery with me? I'll take enough for those two, a few pedals and a couple of amps, plus a modest new car, and you can keep the rest. Deal? Anyone know any low security, high cash banks? Or shops even?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

For the flamenco guitar, some sort of Zorro escapade seems called for.

[C.A.JO.]

Acquiring a quality archtop is the most guilt-free purchase one is ever likely to experience - seriously. Consider how much one invests in an automobile that lasts for a few years (requiring constant operational and maintenance cost) compared to how little most of us are willing to pay for an instrument that will last a lifetime

+1

I agree with this completely. Save up the needed money for the guitar of your dreams!

[Scrybe]

For the flamenco guitar, some sort of Zorro escapade seems called for.

Is that a request to be part of my heist team? I have the costumes ready...

[ES125er]

Scrybe, and don't whereabout you are in NW UK, but if you can go there Foulds Guitars (in Derby) usually have a pretty nice selection of jazz guitars (and amps).

If I were you, I would try to drive there and spend the day in their shop playing everything. You don't have to buy, but it will give you a decent idea of what your options are, either within you current budget or if you decide to wait (artcore, Kingpin, guitars with floating or built-in pickups, semi and full hollows, etc...).

For an overview, try to find their youtube videos where they demo their guitars and amps.

There might be similar shops around your place, of course. I'm just not familiar with NW UK.

[ES125er]

Oh, and by the way, you don't need a hollow or semi-hollow.

But it's OK to want one anyway.

[Scrybe]

Thx, I'm in Liverpool. The Godin Kingpin looks very well priced, but I'm gassing to try the D'Angelicos and Eastmans and stuff, too - never seen those in a store before, so even if I just test them out to compare, it would be an awesome experience (gutted my plan to be in NYC this summer doesn't look to be formulating well at all...was really hoping to try out a Sadowsky, or at least see one in the wood for the first time).

I'm actually contemplating getting a custom build either full or semi, prolly a semi, in a few year's time. Thinking of a walnut construction for it and I'm in talks with an American luthier friend about it at the moment (just vague chatting right now about viability...one of his friends is currently making a full hollow from walnut, so I wanna know how that goes - my Ibanez electro-acoustic is walnut laminate and it has a really nice pseudo-jazzy dark tone to it for the price, which is where I started toying with the idea, all the highs are smoothed off on it and it's not as bassy or boomy as a Martin D15, but has lots of nice lows and low-mids and good dynamic range, surprisingly, oh and not too much sustain).

[Archie]

There's a coincidence. I'm going to Liverpool this Thursday to pick up an ES335 that I bought on eBay two weeks ago. I would have gone earlier if it hadn't been for that volcano in Iceland.