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BDLH - good thought! I'm used to playing dreadnoughts, so I should be okay with the bigger boxes, but I wouldn't mind something that fits nice.
I'm seriously very skint right now, a good chunk of my weekly budget is going on lessons, so the fund is gonna take months to build up, basically save as much as I can each week and add that to it. But I'm in another city for lessons and may be going to the east coast US in the summer (well testing the sadowskys and bennys just for kicks if I do!), so I'm looking to test as many guitars in that price range as possible while I'm saving the cash. Then, when I have a fair amount saved and a clearer idea of what I want, I'll check out the used sections or go with store-bought if something is particularly hot.
I've added the Guild, Heritage, etc., names to my list as stuff to check out if I get the chance (even if a little out of my price range, just for comparison), so keep any suggestions like that coming. It may well boil down to whether I want one guitar or two - and whether there really is much difference between a £300 axe and a £700 one. Whatever I get, it has to sound goo dunplugged as well as plugged in tho.
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04-09-2010 05:09 PM
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And I now have so much gas it's a good thing there's no one else in the room to smell it......
Originally Posted by randyc
Here are three guitars - the ones propped against the cabinet - that when purchased would meet your budget in U.S. $ (neglecting the VAT):
The one in the middle is the ES-135 that Archie mentioned (purchased for $900 U.S. new in 2003) and he is right; it has a syrupy tone that has to be heard to believe. The guitar on the left is the Heritage H-575 (their version of the ES-175 but with carved spruce top) purchased used last year, right at the upper bound of your budget. On the right is the Guild SF III, purchased new for $950 U.S. in 1998 and - amazingly - not much more than that (used) at this time. Both the Guild and the Heritage are hollow-body guitars while the ES-135 is semi-hollow.
The two guitars on stands above them are not within your immediate budget but are not out of the question for future aspiration, especially the L-4CES on the left. The upper-right guitar is the L-5CES "Wes Montgomery" model.
(As a matter of interest, just above the Guild guitar is a photograph of Johnny Cash with my Grandmother - we were once neighbors in Tennessee.)
Photos always add a little spice to the discussion, I think.
cheers,
randyc
And there is something about a played in jazzbox that I really dig....
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Patience is good. I'm a big fan of thin archtops (a 335 is my number one electric), but there's a lot of love for true archtops around here.
My strategy has always been to accumulate the necessary funds, then to pounce when I found the one I wanted. Other players have different methods, but, as long as you get the ONE, you're doing things properly.
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Naturally we all have different definitions of what sounds good unplugged - for me, that would eliminate all semi-hollowbody guitars, unhappily. Originally Posted by Scrybe
There are a couple of other wonderful thin hollowbodies to look into, most especially several of the Hofners - quality, good looks, nice fit for a smaller-framed person, good unamplified sound and great prices. These are impressive instruments - in some ways a better buy even than a Guild. (I almost bought one about 6 weeks ago but BDLH scared me off, LOL.)
And then there's the ES-330TDC, an economy model when purchased in 1964 but worth considerably more than my L-5 now ! Wonderful little guitar - my main hollowbody instrument for years and still the number two favorite just behind the L-5. Little chance of finding one of these at reasonable cost, though the model is also worthy of future aspiration.
So many wonderful guitars, it's almost a privilege to discuss them
OOPS ! So sorry, here it is, with sweet old P-90s instead of humbuckers:
Last edited by randyc; 04-09-2010 at 05:26 PM. Reason: add photo
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Ordered early this week and "under construction" at the moment is the Carvin SH-550 semi-hollow, natural finished maple/mahogany with two split-coil humbuckers (will match my '79 Carvin DC-150 solid body). The guitar will be finished in about 5 weeks and then four lucky members of the forum will get to play it for a month or two before I even get to SEE it !!! How fair is that? Will post photos, obviously -
OOPS again - here's the DC-150. Obviously the SH-550 will be bigger and fatter + I ordered a quilted maple headstock:
Like this one:
http://www.vantaanmusiikki.fi/shop/images/sh550.jpgLast edited by randyc; 04-09-2010 at 05:55 PM. Reason: add photos
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well, there's been lots of good advice here so far, so i'll weigh in. forgive me in advance, this is gonna be a long one.
i bought my first (and favorite, though now heavily modded) tele (and SF fender twin) back in 1996 when i was seventeen years old. they cost me over a year's worth of saving working several horrible jobs, and spending almost nothing else except for gas (for my car that cost me $200, $100 of which was a birthday present from my pops!), guitar lessons, and the occasional bad date.
I have not EVER expereinced such a satisfying guitar buy since then. there's something about saving, waiting, and having it hurt a little. but i digress.
I got into jazz right after that, and was perfectly content with doing it on my tele for the next 5-6 years, all through my last year of high school and all of college. Nobody ever questioned the tele, and I never did either.
In 2002, after being in the working world for a short time (high school teacher) I joined some of these online message boards. Suddenly, within a week, I became convinced I neeeded an archtop to play the same music i had been playing for years on. These places have a way of doing that to you.
Not making much money and attempting to save up to buy a house (as i realized the renting trap early on) I went for what I could swing at the moment--An Epiphone Emperor Regent. Mine was a used, Korean made model.
There was nothing wrong with the guitar mind you. There was just nothing great about it either. I became frustrated with it, started saving again, and kept a look out for a Gibson 125 or (a bigger dream) a 150. Never found one I could afford that played how I wanted it to.
Meanwhile, life didn't stop. Got married, and then as newlyweds, took in a friend and her young child who had been evicted and essentially had nothing and nowhere to go. Money was spent on things other than guitars for a long time.
I bought my Godin last Fall after finally growing tired of the Epiphone to the point of where there was no point owning it. No character. I see that in a lot of the Asian instruments--nothing wrong with them, just nothing completely right either. It's like that with the Ibanez's, for example--big frets and skinny necks--they're not made for a jazz player, they're made for a rock player who's considering jazz. I wasn't that anymore.(this is all my opinion, and in no way intended to put down an ibanez owner)
I stumbled upon the Godin in a shop, loved the old school vibe (remember, I'm a tele player--flashy is NOT my thing...maybe another reason why I could never bond with the fake gold and abalone-laced regent...), and pulled the trigger. I don't regret it, but it was still a "settle" purchase. I'm glad I did it, however, as I play that guitar differently (in a way i really like) than my tele and I find inspiration in it's simplicity. I got lucky, in a way.
At home, it's back to just the two of us, and aside from the occaional check to help out the mother in law, I'm able to put aside money every month again for that "dream guitar," and might be ready for it next year. My guess is, after all the false starts and bumps in the road, whn I finally do find that 150, I'm gonna feel like I'm 17 again, and if memory serves me right, that will most definitely be worth the wait.
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Same thing here, at least with any I've heard unplugged so far. With the exception of my tutor's 335 (I think that's what he plays, if not then it's similar). That may be how he plays it as well, tho....still the best sounding unplugged semi I've heard by a long stretch. But not quite the same thing as a full hollow. Originally Posted by randyc
That ES-330 looks niiiiiiiiiiiccccccceeeeee! Man, I'm gonna have to rob a bank and buy me some jazzers right now! Anyone else want some new guitars, PM me to join the heist squad. But you'll have to bring your own balaclava....
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But in the meantime, Jeff plays that Godin beautifully; sounds like a S-400 to me, LOL !
PS: "Jeff" = "Mister Beaumont" do a search on the parent forum and you'll find some of his work with the Godin - very pretty !Last edited by randyc; 04-09-2010 at 06:07 PM. Reason: add PS
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very interesting post, Mr. B., and I hope you find that 150 hon. It'll def be worth the wait.
I've been wanting a jazzbox ever since I was about 15 (just over a decade now) and heard Jim Hall and Kenny Burrell for the first time. Prior to that, I always loved the T-Bone Walker sound, but found soldibodies more versatile for blues playing. I just never seriously considered getting one because I figured I should play jazz before I get a jazzbox. And now...well.
But the dream of getting either a vintage, custom made, or top end jazz guitar (Benny, Sadowsky, etc) is something that will hang over me until I get one. I know it for sure.
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The custom-made option is appealing but in my experience the problem can be that you know exactly what you want AT THAT TIME. Over time what you want may change - you can then wind up with an expensive guitar you want to shift but which has little resale value because it's an unknown quantity or the features are quirky (one reason to go custom in the first place!). Originally Posted by Scrybe
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That's true. I have a gorgeous flamed maple jumbo acoustic flat top that I haven't played in years. Another issue is that you can't be sure what you order will sound the way you want. There is enough variability from guitar to guitar that I now buy off the shelf instruments because I can play them first.
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This is good advice to heed. I went through something like 75 guitars before I finally ordered a custom instrument. That guitar has survived as my #1 electric even with more "toys" incoming since I received it 3 years ago. Two other customs ordered since are also part of my permanent "choir" of available guitar voices. Originally Posted by Bill C
So it's a good thing to really know with confidence what your voice is before you go the custom route. Especially since the wait can be long: Nearly two years for one of mine! But once you have identified that voice, the custom experience can be very satisfying, and give you an instrument that will be yours for life.
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Randyc mentioned Hofner in one of his posts. I've seen that they have a new guitar that might fit your needs. It's the HCT17 - it's a full 17" design, laminate spruce top, laminate maple sides and backs. J Hale is selling them for US$795 including case and setup, so I imagine they'd be in your price range in the UK. At that price, probably designed in Germany, manufactured in Asia. If you go to jhalemusic.com, there are a couple of videos where Jeff Hale plays the single and dual humbucker versions both acoustically and amplified.
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All very good points, and the custom route is a long way off for me yet. But one day, I'm gonna go there. I'm really specific about what tones I like and don't like, always have been, so by the time I go down that route, I'll no doubt have a clear idea of what I want.
Even my choices so far with cheap instruments have been directed first by hearing the sound I wanted then looking for that in a guitar. My cheap Ibanez acoustic is walnut laminate and has a really dark tone to it. I trawled through weblist after weblist of guitars in my price range looking for ones that would have less highs to their sound and (hopefully) a dark and muted sound overall. Tried a bunch in store, with the Ibanez as a key one to test, and realised the Ibanez was it at that price point. Been happy with it ever since, and it's been about two years now. Since playing jazz, I've been tempted to switch to flats or semi-flats, and I think that (or heavier strings - but I also use it for tapping, very occasionally, and lots of blues with string bending...has 11s now) would further help. But I tend to have a knack for deciding on a particular sound and then finding that when guitar hunting, so I reckon the custom route is the logical next step for that, once I've improved my chops a lot and saved a stack of cash!
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Thanks, I'll check that out. There's one store listed in the UK as a Hofner dealer, so I'll def check that place out at some point, too. Originally Posted by goshawk
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Hamiltons have them
Hofner HCT-J17 Jazz Hollowbody A&C Hamilton Blackpool Rd Preston
Made in the Far East, and set up in Germany. That's important-it shows Hofner care enough to double check things. GOOD price!!
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awesome hook up billkath! I'm well organising a trip to try one of them out asap! that's looking a serious contender to the Kingpin, which was one I was really intrigued by.
but, as a newbie to the jazzbox world - floating pickup? I take it this means it's screwed on top of the box top right? any pros/cons between that and one where the pup hole is cut into the body? also, I've been playing my Spear exclusively on the neck pup since jazzing, and always had neck pup preference anyway, but is there any strong argument to favour a two-pup guitar for jazz?
liking the looks a lot, and the ebony bridge! I'm really stoked to give this one a try now....
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I think these are awfully good for jazz:
Do you need a hollow body guitar for jazz? Of course not. Do you want one? That's up to you.Last edited by fep; 04-10-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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Scrybe, you won't find a whole lot of love on here for floating pickups. Maybe some, but not much. I personally am not a fan. There's a pretty significant loss of bass frequencies, and other than that, they just don't sound. . . good. I don't really know how to describe it. Also, they are prone to feedback since the guitar is much more alive acoustically. Of course, if it's a viable option, play on one and hear it for yourself. FWIW, don't use Johnny Smith as an example of what a floating pickup sounds like. IMO, he has one of the greatest tones ever, and got it with a floating pickup guitar, but I've never heard any other guitar or guitarist sound like him with a floater.
As far as two pickups, I don't think it's necessary. If you're looking at an archtop for that uber-traditional sound, you probably won't use the bridge pickup at all. Definitely not by itself, and probably not in combination with the neck pickup either.Last edited by bkdavidson; 04-10-2010 at 01:35 PM.
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Regarding the Hofner and the set-up claim:
Caveat emptor … The Hofner website doesn't make that claim nor does it even list that model ???
I'd take that "made in Asia, set up in Germany" as market-speak, not fact. Actually that website posts a disclaimer of accuracy just a few lines down from the instrument listing. The shipping, double packing, re-shipping etc would add at least $100 U.S. to the cost. (I'd be shocked to order one and find that it actually shipped from Germany rather than China as evidenced on the invoice or packing slip.)
It doesn't require much skill to set up a guitar compared to building a guitar, right? So why would the builder be incapable of setting up the product that he manufactured and, instead, have to ship it to Germany for two minutes of adjustment and then ship from Germany to J. Hale in the U.S. ?
It's not a Hofner, it's just another re-branded Samick, Peerless or whatever. Decent Hofners go for at least $2k U.S. and well worth the price! For $700 U.S. you don't get a German-designed, German set-up guitar - you get a Samick or a Peerless with a German name on the headstock. If that's acceptable, great, everyone is happy: the buyer, the dealer with his profit, the Chinese manufacturer with his profit, Hofner with the profit from the use of their name and the shipping company who probably made the biggest profit of all, LOL.
Regarding the floating pickup, bkdavidson summarized the general feeling well.Last edited by randyc; 04-10-2010 at 01:36 PM. Reason: poor phrasing
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A floating pickup doesn't actually come in contact with the top of the guitar. Sometimes (as appears in this case), it's attached by a bracket to the fretboard; sometimes it's attached to the pickguard. In theory, a floating pickup should enhance acoustic tone, because it lets the top of the guitar vibrate more freely. I think there's been some debate on the board about whether that really achieves anything with a laminate-top guitar. Originally Posted by Scrybe
I think a lot of players prefer an inset pickup because they prefer the tone it gives amplified and because it makes it easier (and gives you more choices) if you want to swap in another p'up.
I'm not aware of a strong argument either for or against dual pickup guitars for jazz... but perhaps some of the more experienced members will weigh in here. There is a two pickup version of the Hofner, so you may be able to try both and see which you prefer.
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"There's a pretty significant loss of bass frequencies.." was mentioned by BKDavidson, but I find myself rolling the bass off on both my Roland cube and Fender Princeton Chorus with my Aria which has a floater. Not that I'm any sort of expert, but it is what I noticed with my rig. Feedback is an issue, much more so than with my Peerless Gigmaster.
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Great Ed Bickert video, FEP! thanks for sharing.
Also, I have never used the bridge pickup on my Frankenstein Tele. I don't see a realistic need for the bridge pickup for jazz. As stated above, BKDavidson pretty much said it all.
wizLast edited by wizard3739; 04-10-2010 at 02:07 PM.
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On that point-When you are mass producing cheaper guitars, it doesn't pay them to set up the guitar completely-the manufacturer. We're talking sub-£500 guitars here, Randy. They expect either the shop/retailer or a luthier to do it for you, before the sale. I don't know about in the States, but over here in Ireland, and also in the UK, the guitar departments all have someone to do the last few bits of the setup. The luthier I use even states that on his site. Originally Posted by randyc
Archtop.ie - Luthier John Moriarty - Nemesis Guitars
I'm also not sure about the laws in America, but over here and in the UK-if the website lied about them setting up the guitars in Hofner's Germany plant they'd be sued, and also in trouble with Trading Standards-it's called Mis-selling, and carries enormous fines. Do you have similar laws in America?
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Bill, they "weasel-worded" their claims just below the advertisement by declining to assume responsibility for the facts. That gets them off the hook, in your country and in my country as it would anywhere else in the world. Originally Posted by billkath
HOFNER does NOT make that claim - I couldn't even find the model number of the guitar on their web search engine. I have an immense amount of respect for the traditional manufacturers of musical instruments, Selmer, Hofner, Framus and the many manufacturers of brass and stringed instruments in Europe. I have little to no respect for many of the distributors that will do whatever it takes to fatten their bottom line, as it were (no matter where they are located - in fact I find the practices worse in the U.S. - by far - than in the U.K.).
If I tell you that I understand a comet will strike the earth tomorrow but that I can't be certain of it .... what would you think? Have I mislead you or was it an honest error? And then if I tell you that I think my Epiphone Emperor Reject was actually precisely set-up at the Gibson Custom Shop and offerred to sell it to you, is that the same circumstance? Weasel words.
The set-up issue and the practice here is the same as in the U.K. Why? Because shipping and environment changes will render a factory set-up all but useless anyway (especially considering that the strings that these things are shipped with are normally removed within minutes of getting the guitar home).
The same argument holds true if the instrument is set-up in Germany. Guitars, like many wines. usually don't travel well. The instrument would still require adjustment by the dealer so what's the point in advertising that they are set-up at any particular location in the world?
But the proof is in the pudding. Maybe someday a member will purchase one of these re-branded instruments and tell us what the packing slip or invoice reveals as to the location from which the guitar was shipped.
cheers,
randyc
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