Do I Need an Archtop or Semi-Hollow Guitar?

**billkath** · 04-10-2010, 03:18 PM

Oh-I agree with you-manufacturers do "butter the bread".
The weasle word thing is just a standard disclaimer, though, and would in no way protect them for a blatant lie, as opposed to a simple misprint on the specs (which is what it is there for).
All the adverts for the guitars say the same thing, though-even this link from Vintage Guitar magazine, so it sounds like a press release for a new instrument from Hofner-one not up on the site yet?
Vintage Guitar® magazine :
I'd imagine a fine company like Hofner wouldn't let themselves open to lawsuits. I wonder too- Do Hofner not actually put their "cheaper" range of guitars up on their prestige site? Like it's kind of hard to find Fender's cheapest on theirs?

**randyc** · 04-10-2010, 03:34 PM

That thought occurred to me as well - that the Asian instruments are only advertised by the distributors, not the mother company.

The standard disclaimer is basic armor plating against all varieties of consumer complaints and truth-in-advertising conflicts. Distributors here, as a rule, download their advertising direct from the manufacturer.

Anything that is not a direct manufacturer quotation (unless it's a product review) is suspicious to me. I find serious errors or downright deception in musical instrument distributors' advertising frequently. I usually post such things here so that others will be aware of the <ahem> "inconsistencies" in the claims.

cheers -

**goshawk** · 04-10-2010, 08:27 PM

Well, I apologize for re-opening the Asian guitar debate, which probably should be in a separate thread by now.

Anyway, I do note that Jeff Hale, in his videos, specifies that the price includes professional setup at his shop -- which, to me at least, seems inconsistent with the "setup in Germany" claim.

**randyc** · 04-10-2010, 08:51 PM

The J. Hale set-up thing is an astute observation, Goshawk !

**billkath** · 04-10-2010, 09:20 PM

It begs the question- "What do they mean by Setup?", doesn't it?
I mean-Saying Hofner do a Setup in Germany could mean anything from a simple truss adjustment to actually finishing a semi-complete guitar, couldn't it? China could supply them with a built and varnished guitar, cheap because of labour cost, that had no finishing touches-no machine heads or hardware, nut, bridge, fret's just pressed but not finished, or, it could mean they simply adjust the truss rod, intonation, action at nut and bridge, and catch any snags.

From that quote, it sounds like Hofner might only bring it to the next level and give a starting setup. Of course, the additional Hales setup could be the personal one, catering for your specific requirements? By the very nature of setups, unless the actual client is telling you what he/she wants, you can only give a good general average, no? A setup for my finger style and light lefthand would be quite different to someone else who liked to use a pick and feel some pressure with their lefthand?

**randyc** · 04-10-2010, 09:33 PM

$700 doesn't buy much of anything that requires German labor. Not to mention the double shipping cost. If the guitar really gets diverted to Germany (for any reason) I think that we may be looking at a $300 instrument whose price got jacked up by high-priced value-added labor + additional shipping and port fees, duties and the like ...

Just an opinion, of course

**billkath** · 04-10-2010, 10:06 PM

I agree with you-the base price is likely much less than that. But-look at it this way? It's not diverted to Germany-it's a German company making "components" in a cheaper labour market than Germany. After delivery of the Components to Germany, It's then shipped around the world, after "assembly" or "QC", or even just packaging. You know well the German's attention to detail, even on their cheaper goods-would they really let stuff be made elsewhere and shipped from the place of manufature without them being looked at by their own craftsmen? German factories in the USA , UK and Europe, making cars and medicines, always have German people in the key positions of their quality control departments. And that's in countries that would have a high quality local workforce. Is it too much of a stretch to think that they may be getting super-cheap components, made to their specs, and then just finish them off so they can get into the 3-500 buck market? That market might move on to their prestige market, if they got quality right at a cheap price on their first guitar?

I think a lot of companies are at this now-For instance buying a new Joe Meek compresser, now that Joe Meek has been bought by an American company, and thinking that "Hey-Hyatt makes those in China, and they are diverted to America, and then to me-what gives on the pricing?" I know well, though, that his company then apply modifications and packaging in the States, done by people that care about QC, and that's what I pay the premium for. Sure, they could ship directly from China, at a cheaper price, but it has the Joe Meek name on it, and that brand needs protecting- protecting by letting their own QC and craftsmen assemble and QC the product.

**randyc** · 04-10-2010, 10:43 PM

You may be right, Bill ...

Shall we keep an eye on the Hofner website and see if they acknowledge their "bastard child"?

If they don't discuss the German value-added aspect then we might assume that the relationship is similar to Gibson-Epiphone. Except that Gibson doesn't acknowledge parenthood by placing their name on the headstock (for which I am grateful as Gibson owner for more than five decades).

If this happens, I'll be regretful to see a marque that I respect - Hofner - fall into line with other historically significant manufacturers that now suckle at the Chinese nipple. Worse - place their name in prominent location on a product that is in every way inferior to the guitars formerly produced by fine German craftsmen.

I'm cranky and will now locate and assimilate my medications

cheers,
randyc

My German-American 1928 Weissenborne Style 1:

**goshawk** · 04-10-2010, 11:20 PM

Actually, after I posted before, it occurred to me that one possible explanation was just what Bill suggested: bulk manufacture in China, final assembly/finish in Germany. Ibanez did something similar with their Artcore United guitars, IIRC.

It also strikes me as possible that they are selling them at cost or a very slim margin to build awareness and the price will jump in a few months to more accurately reflect costs. I think this is what was done with the new D'Angelicos a few years back, which you could buy direct for $895 for a while and then jumped to $1295.

BTW, I believe this is actually Hofner's second pass at selling an Asian manufactured guitar. A year or two ago they came out with the HI-J5 series. The story I've read is that they originally contracted to have them made in Korea, but determined with the first batch that they couldn't sell them profitably at the price point they wanted.

**randyc** · 04-10-2010, 11:53 PM

Interesting, Goshawk. Market strategy is frequently mysterious but Japan invented targeted markets: how to underprice and corner a market driving competition out of business. Korea and China are slow to learn but they ARE learning from the masters of the strategy.

One has to wonder whether the tiger's tail is FIRMLY grasped when entering into Chinese business participation. And when the tail is relinquished, does one still have a business? History suggests NOT.

It's not credible to me that ANY combination of imported parts and German labor can be economically competitive while providing a quality instrument. Decades of experience as musician, engineer and businessman impair my immediate acceptance of this fine idea

I'd love to own a Hofner New President (and I WILL if I live a few more years) but I'd instantly refuse a gift of anything made in China with the Hofner name attached (sic transit mundi or something like that).

When I buy the New President, be sure that I'll post photos here because I know that all of you appreciate fine instruments more than fine advertising.

cheers,
randyc

**billkath** · 04-11-2010, 06:35 AM

Shall we keep an eye on the Hofner website and see if they acknowledge their "bastard child"?

Ha Ha!!

Yes!
If I were Hofner, I'd have a seperate website for the cheaper stuff. There is no way I'd let them sit beside my prestige and custom shop models. I think my marketing strategy would be similar to Fender with the Starcaster range. I'd use my hard-won name to sell these guitars to "budding musicians". I'd make a big deal about how these guitars go through rigourous checks etc.(which is what they are doing, I suppose, with the set-up comments?)
Lets be clear, though-I'd imagine that these guitars are not ultra-cheap knock-off copies with weird and wonderful new names. Hofner, like Fender with the Starcaster range, want "some" quality to be there, to protect and promote their brand (and profit-level). I'd imagine that it's quality is much higher than the cheaper knock-offs-about the quality of the Epiphones and Ibanez models at a similar 350-600 dollars range? Maybe Starcaster is not the range I should have suggested-maybe Squier by Fender is a better choice? Playable, solid. Just not a collectors item.

**franco6719** · 04-11-2010, 06:47 AM

Yes, to be precise, you need a Guild X-175 hollowbody in order to play real jazz.

**randyc** · 04-11-2010, 11:50 AM

Oh, if I only had one <sigh> actually, that should be a higher priority than the New President. There have been a couple recently with very good prices on eBay ..

**Scrybe** · 04-11-2010, 02:43 PM

I'm seriously tempted to use the interest free finance to get the Godin since watching youtube demos of it. Not before testing it myself, of course. But still...

**randyc** · 04-11-2010, 03:13 PM

Mister Beaumont is a thoughtful man, educated and intelligent not to mention a good musician. He plays a Godin and you could do far worse than to send him a PM asking him to describe the instrument with frankness. Although a personal trial is always preferable, the next best thing in these days of internet commerce is the advice of a trusted performer.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-11-2010, 05:42 PM

gee, thanks randy! i'm blushing a bit....

but yes, absolutely scrybe--ask me anything you want. While the Godin is by no means a "be all end all" instrument, I think it's among the nicest available in it's price bracket, and does a very good job capturing a very specific, old-school vibe, IMHO. Looked at from that latter perspective, it actually has no direct competitors, which make it pretty unique.

**Scrybe** · 04-11-2010, 06:04 PM

yeah, old school is def what I'm after! gah, I'm soooo tempted by this guitar.....

Mr. B did you try the different models before buying? Any major sound differences/playability diffs between them? I'm leaning towards the cutaway option, but I'm keeping an open mind. Hoping the local store has one in stock tomorrow for me to try, but I doubt they'll have cutaway and non-cutawy models out. Which did you go for, and why?

Also, my current amps are a Marshall JTM45 combo and a Fender Blues Jr. Been using the Marshall lately while ordering new tubes for my Fender and find it has some nice jazzy tones in it, but it's way too loud to really gig with for jazz stuff right now. Never selling it tho - picked it up for £200 a few years back and they go for £800-1100 new now, but I'm really into it. Just wondering whether those amps (and the Fender in particular) will sound like in a pretty traditional jazz setting (not trad jazz, but 'acoustic' bop-modal-cool sorta sounds). Any thoughts? I've been vaguely considering getting a 5W or so tube amp for practice and recording - something like the Blackstar head and cab, or the Fender Champion 600 combo. Are there any small amps that would suit jazzing and fall within that price range (£100-400)? Or will the Blues Jr do fine?

And lastly, the big jazzing question for me at the moment.......will I be able to do Jim Hall on it?The sound clips I've heard/seen on youtube indicate it'll do some very nice jazzy tones, but his sound really cuts through on solos - it's really glossy when he solos. The demos highlight its comping capabilities, but I'd be very interested to hear how it holds up soloing in a band setting.

Thx!

**mr. beaumont** · 04-11-2010, 08:38 PM

I didn't have the chance to play the cutaway model until after I purchased my non-cut. Very nice guitar--seemed to have a little less acoustic sound, but it was probably also strung up with lighter strings than what I have on mine, so it's not a good comparison really. If they made a single pickup cutaway version, I'd be even more excited.

I'm a fan of the blues junior for a jazz setting--I have one, and do use it from time to time, especially for jam sessions. I find it's loud enough to keep up with a band, unless there's a REALLY hard hitting drummer (the kind you probably will never come across in a jazz setting)

Jim Hall tone? hmmm...early or later? Early, heck yeah. Later, not so much. A solid state "jazz" amp (like my polytone) gets me a little closer to that vibe, but not completely.

I like this guitar best with my henriksen right now. I like a little outboard reverb to open it up a little. that said, it's sounding awfully good this evening thru the blues junor here at my house...I'm getting a very jimmy raney/rene thomas vibe tonight.

my wife did buy me one of those champion 600's as a surprise gift a few year ago (she had overheard me talking champs with a friend, unfortunately, we were talking blackface vs. silverface, but i loved the effort) and the godin sounds surprisingly good thru it--at low volume. Every other guitar i've plugged into it sounds like complete garbage, and if you crank that thing up, be prepared for some of the worst overdrive this side of a Roland JC-120! Overall, it's a cute little paperweight my wife allows me to keep in our living room.

overall, i like solid state for practice...I've been lazy lately and been bringing the lunchbox everywhere--rehearsals, lessons at folks houses, school, etc...makes lifting the blues junior feel like hauling a twin!

**lpdeluxe** · 04-11-2010, 09:02 PM

I have a Blues Jr and it does fine. Its lack of the really distinctive tone of other Fenders works in its favor, allowing you to bring your own tone to the gig.

It is also lightweight: mine has become my grab and go amp, even though I have three other Fender guitar amps, all of which have great sounds.

**randyc** · 04-12-2010, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Scrybe

... Been using the Marshall lately while ordering new tubes for my Fender and find it has some nice jazzy tones in it, but it's way too loud to really gig with for jazz stuff right now...

You may want to think about that for a moment ...

Unless one requires distortion (e.g. fusion styles) it's not possible to own an amplifier that is way too loud for jazz (although it is not only possible but probable to own an amplifier that is inconvenient to transport).

The definition of "headroom" is the difference between maximum amplifier power and the power that is actually required for performance. That is why the Fender Twin, the JC-120, and so forth, have been the standard for jazz guitarists for decades. Zero distortion at normal playing level = maximum headroom.

cheers,
randyc

**fep** · 04-12-2010, 01:02 AM

Randy,

I believe there is a certain volume required before a amplifier and/or speaker 'comes alive'. I don't know if it's the amplifier or the speaker... but it just sounds wimpy until you reach a certain volume, at least that's been my experience.

Does a larger amplifier like a high powered Marshall require more volume before it hits that 'comes alive' state than the volume for a smaller amplifier to hit that 'comes alive' state?

**randyc** · 04-12-2010, 01:33 AM

The ideal amplifier/loudspeaker is linear and doesn't include a "step function" or a "threshold" for proper performance UNLESS one is concerned more about the contribution of the amplifier/loudspeaker <distortion> and less concerned about the sound of the guitar.

The jazz artists that I most admire selected amplifiers that accurately reproduced the sound of the instrument that they selected - the amplifier contributed/detracted nothing (intentionally) from their guitar.

Younger musicians are more accustomed to modifying their tonal characteristics with the amplifier hence the selection of the guitar ceases to be of prime importance. The norm seems to be to spend more money on the amplifier than the guitar - tail wagging the dog, IMO.

**medblues** · 04-12-2010, 09:03 AM

When we say almost any guitar can be used to achieve a traditional jazz tone and that one does not have to have a solid-wood hollow-bodied instrument, don't we imply the pickups and the amp has more to do with it than the acoustic sound of the guitar ? Many people perceive a sweet spot for pickups (distance from the strings) and amps (volume) in clean, non-distorted contexts. This must have something to do with Fletcher Munson curves which change with loudness.

**lpdeluxe** · 04-12-2010, 09:15 AM

A good point. The constantly recurring question about amplifiers at one of the forums I frequent is "How does it do with pedals?" They are concerned that they will lose their unique, signature sound (usually meaning chain-saw distortion and utter lack of tone, but then I'm an old guy) by getting an amp that has so much personality of its own that their carefully assembled collection of distortion pedals won't sound annoying enough.

The other frequent question is, "What does __________ sound like dimed?" You understand that "dimed" means everything turned up to 10, including (especially) the volume. Perhaps needless to say, my single answer (were I to share it) would be "I have no idea."

I prefer to find a guitar that I like (or, in the case of my 335, love) and then find an amplifier that brings out its best qualities. This is, obviously, not a technical nor intellectual exercise: it involves playing music through the small herd of amps that I own, finding the closest to what I want, and then tweaking its settings.

There are tones that I like, and tones that I don't find useful; I tend to acquire Fender amps in various sizes because I can depend on Fender to build amplifiers with a sound I like.

Since I play a variety of material, in a variety of venues, sometimes the amp of choice is my Blues Jr; sometimes it's my Band-Master head + 15" speaker cabinet; sometimes it's something in between. Headroom is a function of the room you are playing in, the size of the audience, whether you are playing with a loud drummer, and the gain characteristics of your amp. Since, as a general rule, more power = more weight, lower power amps are my usual choice (disclaimer: old ain't dead -- when I want to play loud music, I pull out my bass and 300 watt Mesa/Boogie and head down the hill where the guy with the PA and drum kit in his recreation room lives).

**Scrybe** · 04-12-2010, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by medblues

When we say almost any guitar can be used to achieve a traditional jazz tone and that one does not have to have a solid-wood hollow-bodied instrument, don't we imply the pickups and the amp has more to do with it than the acoustic sound of the guitar ? Many people perceive a sweet spot for pickups (distance from the strings) and amps (volume) in clean, non-distorted contexts. This must have something to do with Fletcher Munson curves which change with loudness.

maybe we're simply saying that there is sufficient range in our conception of "traditional jazz tone" that solidbodies can satisfy at least part of this conception. And we're also maybe acknowledging that, for most listeners, the nuances aren't that important while most of us, however anal about tone, simply lack the skills and/or high end gear to really record ourselves to a truly professional standard. But I definitely hear something distinctive in the sounds of Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell, etc., that my lowly solidbodies (as much as I love them and as much as they'll suffice for the time being) simply cannot match. I an already get a traditional jazz tone, but I'm after a more specific traditional jazz hollow body tone and, in that sonic space, solidbodies just don't cut it.