Do I Need A Hollow/Semi?

[mr. beaumont]

well, there's been lots of good advice here so far, so i'll weigh in. forgive me in advance, this is gonna be a long one.

i bought my first (and favorite, though now heavily modded) tele (and SF fender twin) back in 1996 when i was seventeen years old. they cost me over a year's worth of saving working several horrible jobs, and spending almost nothing else except for gas (for my car that cost me $200, $100 of which was a birthday present from my pops!), guitar lessons, and the occasional bad date.

I have not EVER expereinced such a satisfying guitar buy since then. there's something about saving, waiting, and having it hurt a little. but i digress.

I got into jazz right after that, and was perfectly content with doing it on my tele for the next 5-6 years, all through my last year of high school and all of college. Nobody ever questioned the tele, and I never did either.

In 2002, after being in the working world for a short time (high school teacher) I joined some of these online message boards. Suddenly, within a week, I became convinced I neeeded an archtop to play the same music i had been playing for years on. These places have a way of doing that to you.

Not making much money and attempting to save up to buy a house (as i realized the renting trap early on) I went for what I could swing at the moment--An Epiphone Emperor Regent. Mine was a used, Korean made model.

There was nothing wrong with the guitar mind you. There was just nothing great about it either. I became frustrated with it, started saving again, and kept a look out for a Gibson 125 or (a bigger dream) a 150. Never found one I could afford that played how I wanted it to.

Meanwhile, life didn't stop. Got married, and then as newlyweds, took in a friend and her young child who had been evicted and essentially had nothing and nowhere to go. Money was spent on things other than guitars for a long time.

I bought my Godin last Fall after finally growing tired of the Epiphone to the point of where there was no point owning it. No character. I see that in a lot of the Asian instruments--nothing wrong with them, just nothing completely right either. It's like that with the Ibanez's, for example--big frets and skinny necks--they're not made for a jazz player, they're made for a rock player who's considering jazz. I wasn't that anymore.(this is all my opinion, and in no way intended to put down an ibanez owner)

I stumbled upon the Godin in a shop, loved the old school vibe (remember, I'm a tele player--flashy is NOT my thing...maybe another reason why I could never bond with the fake gold and abalone-laced regent...), and pulled the trigger. I don't regret it, but it was still a "settle" purchase. I'm glad I did it, however, as I play that guitar differently (in a way i really like) than my tele and I find inspiration in it's simplicity. I got lucky, in a way.

At home, it's back to just the two of us, and aside from the occaional check to help out the mother in law, I'm able to put aside money every month again for that "dream guitar," and might be ready for it next year. My guess is, after all the false starts and bumps in the road, whn I finally do find that 150, I'm gonna feel like I'm 17 again, and if memory serves me right, that will most definitely be worth the wait.

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by randyc

Naturally we all have different definitions of what sounds good unplugged - for me, that would eliminate all semi-hollowbody guitars, unhappily.

Same thing here, at least with any I've heard unplugged so far. With the exception of my tutor's 335 (I think that's what he plays, if not then it's similar). That may be how he plays it as well, tho....still the best sounding unplugged semi I've heard by a long stretch. But not quite the same thing as a full hollow.

That ES-330 looks niiiiiiiiiiiccccccceeeeee! Man, I'm gonna have to rob a bank and buy me some jazzers right now! Anyone else want some new guitars, PM me to join the heist squad. But you'll have to bring your own balaclava....

[randyc]

But in the meantime, Jeff plays that Godin beautifully; sounds like a S-400 to me, LOL !

PS: "Jeff" = "Mister Beaumont" do a search on the parent forum and you'll find some of his work with the Godin - very pretty !

[Scrybe]

very interesting post, Mr. B., and I hope you find that 150 hon. It'll def be worth the wait.

I've been wanting a jazzbox ever since I was about 15 (just over a decade now) and heard Jim Hall and Kenny Burrell for the first time. Prior to that, I always loved the T-Bone Walker sound, but found soldibodies more versatile for blues playing. I just never seriously considered getting one because I figured I should play jazz before I get a jazzbox. And now...well.

But the dream of getting either a vintage, custom made, or top end jazz guitar (Benny, Sadowsky, etc) is something that will hang over me until I get one. I know it for sure.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

But the dream of getting either a vintage, custom made, or top end jazz guitar (Benny, Sadowsky, etc) is something that will hang over me until I get one. I know it for sure.

The custom-made option is appealing but in my experience the problem can be that you know exactly what you want AT THAT TIME. Over time what you want may change - you can then wind up with an expensive guitar you want to shift but which has little resale value because it's an unknown quantity or the features are quirky (one reason to go custom in the first place!).

[lpdeluxe]

That's true. I have a gorgeous flamed maple jumbo acoustic flat top that I haven't played in years. Another issue is that you can't be sure what you order will sound the way you want. There is enough variability from guitar to guitar that I now buy off the shelf instruments because I can play them first.

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by Bill C

The custom-made option is appealing but in my experience the problem can be that you know exactly what you want AT THAT TIME. Over time what you want may change...

This is good advice to heed. I went through something like 75 guitars before I finally ordered a custom instrument. That guitar has survived as my #1 electric even with more "toys" incoming since I received it 3 years ago. Two other customs ordered since are also part of my permanent "choir" of available guitar voices.

So it's a good thing to really know with confidence what your voice is before you go the custom route. Especially since the wait can be long: Nearly two years for one of mine! But once you have identified that voice, the custom experience can be very satisfying, and give you an instrument that will be yours for life.

[goshawk]

Randyc mentioned Hofner in one of his posts. I've seen that they have a new guitar that might fit your needs. It's the HCT17 - it's a full 17" design, laminate spruce top, laminate maple sides and backs. J Hale is selling them for US$795 including case and setup, so I imagine they'd be in your price range in the UK. At that price, probably designed in Germany, manufactured in Asia. If you go to jhalemusic.com, there are a couple of videos where Jeff Hale plays the single and dual humbucker versions both acoustically and amplified.

[Scrybe]

All very good points, and the custom route is a long way off for me yet. But one day, I'm gonna go there. I'm really specific about what tones I like and don't like, always have been, so by the time I go down that route, I'll no doubt have a clear idea of what I want.

Even my choices so far with cheap instruments have been directed first by hearing the sound I wanted then looking for that in a guitar. My cheap Ibanez acoustic is walnut laminate and has a really dark tone to it. I trawled through weblist after weblist of guitars in my price range looking for ones that would have less highs to their sound and (hopefully) a dark and muted sound overall. Tried a bunch in store, with the Ibanez as a key one to test, and realised the Ibanez was it at that price point. Been happy with it ever since, and it's been about two years now. Since playing jazz, I've been tempted to switch to flats or semi-flats, and I think that (or heavier strings - but I also use it for tapping, very occasionally, and lots of blues with string bending...has 11s now) would further help. But I tend to have a knack for deciding on a particular sound and then finding that when guitar hunting, so I reckon the custom route is the logical next step for that, once I've improved my chops a lot and saved a stack of cash!

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by goshawk

Randyc mentioned Hofner in one of his posts. I've seen that they have a new guitar that might fit your needs. It's the HCT17 - it's a full 17" design, laminate spruce top, laminate maple sides and backs. J Hale is selling them for US$795 including case and setup, so I imagine they'd be in your price range in the UK. At that price, probably designed in Germany, manufactured in Asia. If you go to jhalemusic.com, there are a couple of videos where Jeff Hale plays the single and dual humbucker versions both acoustically and amplified.

Thanks, I'll check that out. There's one store listed in the UK as a Hofner dealer, so I'll def check that place out at some point, too.

[billkath]

Hamiltons have them
Hofner HCT-J17 Jazz Hollowbody A&C Hamilton Blackpool Rd Preston
Made in the Far East, and set up in Germany. That's important-it shows Hofner care enough to double check things. GOOD price!!

[Scrybe]

awesome hook up billkath! I'm well organising a trip to try one of them out asap! that's looking a serious contender to the Kingpin, which was one I was really intrigued by.

but, as a newbie to the jazzbox world - floating pickup? I take it this means it's screwed on top of the box top right? any pros/cons between that and one where the pup hole is cut into the body? also, I've been playing my Spear exclusively on the neck pup since jazzing, and always had neck pup preference anyway, but is there any strong argument to favour a two-pup guitar for jazz?

liking the looks a lot, and the ebony bridge! I'm really stoked to give this one a try now....

[fep]

I think these are awfully good for jazz:

YouTube Video

Do you need a hollow body guitar for jazz? Of course not. Do you want one? That's up to you.

[bkdavidson]

Scrybe, you won't find a whole lot of love on here for floating pickups. Maybe some, but not much. I personally am not a fan. There's a pretty significant loss of bass frequencies, and other than that, they just don't sound. . . good. I don't really know how to describe it. Also, they are prone to feedback since the guitar is much more alive acoustically. Of course, if it's a viable option, play on one and hear it for yourself. FWIW, don't use Johnny Smith as an example of what a floating pickup sounds like. IMO, he has one of the greatest tones ever, and got it with a floating pickup guitar, but I've never heard any other guitar or guitarist sound like him with a floater.

As far as two pickups, I don't think it's necessary. If you're looking at an archtop for that uber-traditional sound, you probably won't use the bridge pickup at all. Definitely not by itself, and probably not in combination with the neck pickup either.

[randyc]

Regarding the Hofner and the set-up claim:

Caveat emptor … The Hofner website doesn't make that claim nor does it even list that model ???

I'd take that "made in Asia, set up in Germany" as market-speak, not fact. Actually that website posts a disclaimer of accuracy just a few lines down from the instrument listing. The shipping, double packing, re-shipping etc would add at least $100 U.S. to the cost. (I'd be shocked to order one and find that it actually shipped from Germany rather than China as evidenced on the invoice or packing slip.)

It doesn't require much skill to set up a guitar compared to building a guitar, right? So why would the builder be incapable of setting up the product that he manufactured and, instead, have to ship it to Germany for two minutes of adjustment and then ship from Germany to J. Hale in the U.S. ?

It's not a Hofner, it's just another re-branded Samick, Peerless or whatever. Decent Hofners go for at least $2k U.S. and well worth the price! For $700 U.S. you don't get a German-designed, German set-up guitar - you get a Samick or a Peerless with a German name on the headstock. If that's acceptable, great, everyone is happy: the buyer, the dealer with his profit, the Chinese manufacturer with his profit, Hofner with the profit from the use of their name and the shipping company who probably made the biggest profit of all, LOL.


Regarding the floating pickup, bkdavidson summarized the general feeling well.

[goshawk]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

awesome hook up billkath! I'm well organising a trip to try one of them out asap! that's looking a serious contender to the Kingpin, which was one I was really intrigued by.

but, as a newbie to the jazzbox world - floating pickup? I take it this means it's screwed on top of the box top right? any pros/cons between that and one where the pup hole is cut into the body? also, I've been playing my Spear exclusively on the neck pup since jazzing, and always had neck pup preference anyway, but is there any strong argument to favour a two-pup guitar for jazz?

liking the looks a lot, and the ebony bridge! I'm really stoked to give this one a try now....

A floating pickup doesn't actually come in contact with the top of the guitar. Sometimes (as appears in this case), it's attached by a bracket to the fretboard; sometimes it's attached to the pickguard. In theory, a floating pickup should enhance acoustic tone, because it lets the top of the guitar vibrate more freely. I think there's been some debate on the board about whether that really achieves anything with a laminate-top guitar.

I think a lot of players prefer an inset pickup because they prefer the tone it gives amplified and because it makes it easier (and gives you more choices) if you want to swap in another p'up.

I'm not aware of a strong argument either for or against dual pickup guitars for jazz... but perhaps some of the more experienced members will weigh in here. There is a two pickup version of the Hofner, so you may be able to try both and see which you prefer.

[RoyaleT]

"There's a pretty significant loss of bass frequencies.." was mentioned by BKDavidson, but I find myself rolling the bass off on both my Roland cube and Fender Princeton Chorus with my Aria which has a floater. Not that I'm any sort of expert, but it is what I noticed with my rig. Feedback is an issue, much more so than with my Peerless Gigmaster.

[wizard3739]

Great Ed Bickert video, FEP! thanks for sharing.

Also, I have never used the bridge pickup on my Frankenstein Tele. I don't see a realistic need for the bridge pickup for jazz. As stated above, BKDavidson pretty much said it all.

wiz

[billkath]

Originally Posted by randyc

It doesn't require much skill to set up a guitar compared to building a guitar, right? So why would the builder be incapable of setting up the product that he manufactured and, instead, have to ship it to Germany for two minutes of adjustment and then ship from Germany to J. Hale in the U.S. ?

.

On that point-When you are mass producing cheaper guitars, it doesn't pay them to set up the guitar completely-the manufacturer. We're talking sub-£500 guitars here, Randy. They expect either the shop/retailer or a luthier to do it for you, before the sale. I don't know about in the States, but over here in Ireland, and also in the UK, the guitar departments all have someone to do the last few bits of the setup. The luthier I use even states that on his site.
Archtop.ie - Luthier John Moriarty - Nemesis Guitars

I'm also not sure about the laws in America, but over here and in the UK-if the website lied about them setting up the guitars in Hofner's Germany plant they'd be sued, and also in trouble with Trading Standards-it's called Mis-selling, and carries enormous fines. Do you have similar laws in America?

[randyc]

Originally Posted by billkath

I'm also not sure about the laws in America, but over here and in the UK-if the website lied about them setting up the guitars in Hofner's Germany plant they'd be sued, and also in trouble with Trading Standards-it's called Mis-selling, and carries enormous fines. Do you have similar laws in America?

Bill, they "weasel-worded" their claims just below the advertisement by declining to assume responsibility for the facts. That gets them off the hook, in your country and in my country as it would anywhere else in the world.

HOFNER does NOT make that claim - I couldn't even find the model number of the guitar on their web search engine. I have an immense amount of respect for the traditional manufacturers of musical instruments, Selmer, Hofner, Framus and the many manufacturers of brass and stringed instruments in Europe. I have little to no respect for many of the distributors that will do whatever it takes to fatten their bottom line, as it were (no matter where they are located - in fact I find the practices worse in the U.S. - by far - than in the U.K.).

If I tell you that I understand a comet will strike the earth tomorrow but that I can't be certain of it .... what would you think? Have I mislead you or was it an honest error? And then if I tell you that I think my Epiphone Emperor Reject was actually precisely set-up at the Gibson Custom Shop and offerred to sell it to you, is that the same circumstance? Weasel words.

The set-up issue and the practice here is the same as in the U.K. Why? Because shipping and environment changes will render a factory set-up all but useless anyway (especially considering that the strings that these things are shipped with are normally removed within minutes of getting the guitar home).

The same argument holds true if the instrument is set-up in Germany. Guitars, like many wines. usually don't travel well. The instrument would still require adjustment by the dealer so what's the point in advertising that they are set-up at any particular location in the world?

But the proof is in the pudding. Maybe someday a member will purchase one of these re-branded instruments and tell us what the packing slip or invoice reveals as to the location from which the guitar was shipped.

cheers,
randyc

[billkath]

Oh-I agree with you-manufacturers do "butter the bread".
The weasle word thing is just a standard disclaimer, though, and would in no way protect them for a blatant lie, as opposed to a simple misprint on the specs (which is what it is there for).
All the adverts for the guitars say the same thing, though-even this link from Vintage Guitar magazine, so it sounds like a press release for a new instrument from Hofner-one not up on the site yet?
Vintage Guitar® magazine :
I'd imagine a fine company like Hofner wouldn't let themselves open to lawsuits. I wonder too- Do Hofner not actually put their "cheaper" range of guitars up on their prestige site? Like it's kind of hard to find Fender's cheapest on theirs?

[randyc]

That thought occurred to me as well - that the Asian instruments are only advertised by the distributors, not the mother company.

The standard disclaimer is basic armor plating against all varieties of consumer complaints and truth-in-advertising conflicts. Distributors here, as a rule, download their advertising direct from the manufacturer.

Anything that is not a direct manufacturer quotation (unless it's a product review) is suspicious to me. I find serious errors or downright deception in musical instrument distributors' advertising frequently. I usually post such things here so that others will be aware of the <ahem> "inconsistencies" in the claims.

cheers -

[goshawk]

Well, I apologize for re-opening the Asian guitar debate, which probably should be in a separate thread by now.

Anyway, I do note that Jeff Hale, in his videos, specifies that the price includes professional setup at his shop -- which, to me at least, seems inconsistent with the "setup in Germany" claim.

[randyc]

The J. Hale set-up thing is an astute observation, Goshawk !

[billkath]

It begs the question- "What do they mean by Setup?", doesn't it?
I mean-Saying Hofner do a Setup in Germany could mean anything from a simple truss adjustment to actually finishing a semi-complete guitar, couldn't it? China could supply them with a built and varnished guitar, cheap because of labour cost, that had no finishing touches-no machine heads or hardware, nut, bridge, fret's just pressed but not finished, or, it could mean they simply adjust the truss rod, intonation, action at nut and bridge, and catch any snags.

From that quote, it sounds like Hofner might only bring it to the next level and give a starting setup. Of course, the additional Hales setup could be the personal one, catering for your specific requirements? By the very nature of setups, unless the actual client is telling you what he/she wants, you can only give a good general average, no? A setup for my finger style and light lefthand would be quite different to someone else who liked to use a pick and feel some pressure with their lefthand?

[randyc]

$700 doesn't buy much of anything that requires German labor. Not to mention the double shipping cost. If the guitar really gets diverted to Germany (for any reason) I think that we may be looking at a $300 instrument whose price got jacked up by high-priced value-added labor + additional shipping and port fees, duties and the like ...

Just an opinion, of course

[billkath]

I agree with you-the base price is likely much less than that. But-look at it this way? It's not diverted to Germany-it's a German company making "components" in a cheaper labour market than Germany. After delivery of the Components to Germany, It's then shipped around the world, after "assembly" or "QC", or even just packaging. You know well the German's attention to detail, even on their cheaper goods-would they really let stuff be made elsewhere and shipped from the place of manufature without them being looked at by their own craftsmen? German factories in the USA , UK and Europe, making cars and medicines, always have German people in the key positions of their quality control departments. And that's in countries that would have a high quality local workforce. Is it too much of a stretch to think that they may be getting super-cheap components, made to their specs, and then just finish them off so they can get into the 3-500 buck market? That market might move on to their prestige market, if they got quality right at a cheap price on their first guitar?


I think a lot of companies are at this now-For instance buying a new Joe Meek compresser, now that Joe Meek has been bought by an American company, and thinking that "Hey-Hyatt makes those in China, and they are diverted to America, and then to me-what gives on the pricing?" I know well, though, that his company then apply modifications and packaging in the States, done by people that care about QC, and that's what I pay the premium for. Sure, they could ship directly from China, at a cheaper price, but it has the Joe Meek name on it, and that brand needs protecting- protecting by letting their own QC and craftsmen assemble and QC the product.

[randyc]

You may be right, Bill ...

Shall we keep an eye on the Hofner website and see if they acknowledge their "bastard child"?

If they don't discuss the German value-added aspect then we might assume that the relationship is similar to Gibson-Epiphone. Except that Gibson doesn't acknowledge parenthood by placing their name on the headstock (for which I am grateful as Gibson owner for more than five decades).

If this happens, I'll be regretful to see a marque that I respect - Hofner - fall into line with other historically significant manufacturers that now suckle at the Chinese nipple. Worse - place their name in prominent location on a product that is in every way inferior to the guitars formerly produced by fine German craftsmen.

I'm cranky and will now locate and assimilate my medications

cheers,
randyc

My German-American 1928 Weissenborne Style 1:

[goshawk]

Actually, after I posted before, it occurred to me that one possible explanation was just what Bill suggested: bulk manufacture in China, final assembly/finish in Germany. Ibanez did something similar with their Artcore United guitars, IIRC.

It also strikes me as possible that they are selling them at cost or a very slim margin to build awareness and the price will jump in a few months to more accurately reflect costs. I think this is what was done with the new D'Angelicos a few years back, which you could buy direct for $895 for a while and then jumped to $1295.

BTW, I believe this is actually Hofner's second pass at selling an Asian manufactured guitar. A year or two ago they came out with the HI-J5 series. The story I've read is that they originally contracted to have them made in Korea, but determined with the first batch that they couldn't sell them profitably at the price point they wanted.

[randyc]

Interesting, Goshawk. Market strategy is frequently mysterious but Japan invented targeted markets: how to underprice and corner a market driving competition out of business. Korea and China are slow to learn but they ARE learning from the masters of the strategy.

One has to wonder whether the tiger's tail is FIRMLY grasped when entering into Chinese business participation. And when the tail is relinquished, does one still have a business? History suggests NOT.

It's not credible to me that ANY combination of imported parts and German labor can be economically competitive while providing a quality instrument. Decades of experience as musician, engineer and businessman impair my immediate acceptance of this fine idea

I'd love to own a Hofner New President (and I WILL if I live a few more years) but I'd instantly refuse a gift of anything made in China with the Hofner name attached (sic transit mundi or something like that).

When I buy the New President, be sure that I'll post photos here because I know that all of you appreciate fine instruments more than fine advertising.

cheers,
randyc