Chromatic Scale Sequences

[princeplanet]

Some of you guys are making out that BH actually invented this stuff.

[pamosmusic]

Some of you guys are making out that BH actually invented this stuff.

Don’t think I read anyone that way.

It’s pretty easy to hear these devices - particularly descending - in loads of the post-Parker generation of horn players. Hank Mobley and Dexter Gordon come to mind.

I just think BHs formulation of it is super super practical.

[ragman1]

I just think BHs formulation of it is super super practical.

That's a fair answer but I'll tell you what I think.

All these 'rules' about what goes where are laid out, right? So you want to play a tune and you've got to improvise. What do you do, work it out on the fly? Compute it as you go along? You'd need a super-brain to do that.

So do you work out all these licks in all the keys and then regurgitate the licks? To me, that's death to spontaneous creative improvisation. I refuse to play music that way.

I don't know how BH or any of the fluent bebop players worked out their lines. Maybe the answer is practice till you drop and it all becomes second nature. Probably that's the answer, plus talent, of course.

I used to do bluegrass and I could rattle my way round most any tune at about 220, no prob. But they're very simple progressions in G, C, D, or Em, and so on. With a capo. But this jazz stuff is not like that, it's highly complex. I couldn't do it.

In any case, I'm bolshy, I don't like being told how to play my stuff, takes the pleasure out of it :-)

So how do you do it? And CAN you do it? If you don't mind my asking. I mean, anyone can quote BH or someone else. Not quite the same as playing it yourself spontaneously, right?

[pamosmusic]

So do you work out all these licks in all the keys and then regurgitate the licks? To me, that's death to spontaneous creative improvisation. I refuse to play music that way.

Not quite. Assembling them and tinkering with them and moving them around and transposing them and whatnot. Actually seems like it makes the ole brain a little more capable of creativity than the opposite.

I don't know how BH or any of the fluent bebop players worked out their lines. Maybe the answer is practice till you drop and it all becomes second nature. Probably that's the answer, plus talent, of course.

I'm not a Barry Harris dude. Kind of an interloper on that stuff. But practice til you drop and it all becomes second nature is about how it works for me (minus the talent in my case).

There's that apocryphal Charlie Parker quote about practicing hard and then "forget it all and just blow."

[ragman1]

Not quite. Assembling them and tinkering with them and moving them around and transposing them and whatnot. Actually seems like it makes the ole brain a little more capable of creativity than the opposite.

You mean as you improvise in real time? Or in your bedroom :-)

There's that apocryphal Charlie Parker quote about practicing hard and then "forget it all and just blow."

I understand that. In fact, I do it. Only not with speedy bebop lines over complex progressions!

[pamosmusic]

You mean as you improvise in real time? Or in your bedroom :-)

While I practice. Which––presumably––would then make a person a bit more capable of doing so in real time. And it's my converted garage, but that's neither here nor there.

I understand that. In fact, I do it. Only not with speedy bebop lines over complex progressions!

Well. Presumably the difference would be that it might require rather a lot of practice before feeling free and easy with bebop lines over complex progressions.

[princeplanet]

That's a fair answer but I'll tell you what I think.

...
I don't know how BH or any of the fluent bebop players worked out their lines. Maybe the answer is practice till you drop and it all becomes second nature. Probably that's the answer, plus talent, of course.

....

Well of course that's the answer! Chromatic embellishment of chord and colour tones makes up a lot of the Bop language, and there's no shortcut to it. It's years and years of practice for most of us. The BH thing certainly codifies this language in a way that can be taught, but as has been mentioned earlier, it's a simple concept at root, and there's many ways to do it. Bud and Bird found a way, as did Diz, Dexter, Monk, Rollins etc etc. But they're all different! BH can make practioners of his take on things sound a little "samey" (maybe?), which is why I like to see people find they're own way to do it.

[Christian Miller]

The hiccups are my favourite bits

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

A BH style chromatic scale with those hiccups along the way is very easy to execute on piano. And it makes a chromatic line sound much more interesting with those hiccups along the way, dare I say it's more melodic. Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and fusion players do it a lot. It can be ambiguous, it doesn't have to be about chord tone alignment, although it should be initially practiced and understood that way. All the BH stuff can become detached from pedantic chord tone alignment once it becomes familiar to a player, that's what happens when put into play after the study and assimilation training period. Hal Galper's book "Forward Motion" goes into that idea of what was on the strong beats cxan just as well be place on the upbeats. So you can't really go wrong.

Could you please point me to the respective page(s) in the "Forward Motion" book? Because from what I understood the main thing in Hal Galper's "forward motion" concept is how music relates to the "one" of the bar, seeing the one as point of resolution instead of as starting point. At least that is what he talks about in conversation with Bob Mover.

(Very interesting conversation anyway.)

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Don’t think I read anyone that way.

It’s pretty easy to hear these devices - particularly descending - in loads of the post-Parker generation of horn players. Hank Mobley and Dexter Gordon come to mind.

I just think BHs formulation of it is super super practical.

BTW Barry played on quite a few Hank Mobley and Dexter Gordon albums.

[GuyBoden]

For anyone who is interested in this, I've updated the 1st post to include the generic sequence formula for both the ascending and descending sequences.

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To create your own sequence, using what ever interval you like.

Just add your own interval for X and Z.

Ascending Sequence.

D-Eb-E-X-F-Gb-G-Ab-A-Bb-B-Z-C-Db-D-Eb-E-X-F-Gb-G-Ab-A-Bb-B-Z-C-Db etc

Descending Sequence.

D-Db-C-Z-B-Bb-A-Ab-G-Gb-F-X-E-Eb-D-Db-C-Z-B-Bb-A-Ab-G-Gb etc

[pamosmusic]

BTW Barry played on quite a few Hank Mobley and Dexter Gordon albums.

Ah very cool!

I knew he was on a bunch of those later Dexter albums but didn’t know about Hank Mobley. Figures though!

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Ah very cool!

I knew he was on a bunch of those later Dexter albums but didn’t know about Hank Mobley. Figures though!

I did not know either about the Mobley albums either TBH. Hank Mobley is someone I did not listen to much yet (but I will and not just because of BH but because I am always interested to get to know something new ). But when I read

Some of you guys are making out that BH actually invented this stuff.

I felt tempted to reply something. You had already answered adequately while I remembered there was an older BH discography in the Internet Archive (the easiest way to log in and borrow is via a Google account if you have one). And among the first albums mentioned Barry played as a sideman for guess who. That reminded me of Reg recommending listening to and transcribing Hank Mobley instead of practicing BH stuff LOL. And then on most HM albums the bass is played by Paul Chambers who was one of Barry's earliest students ...

[pamosmusic]

I did not know either about the Mobley albums either TBH. Hank Mobley is someone I did not listen to much yet (but I will and not just because of BH but because I am always interested to get to know something new ).

It’s all good, but Soul Station is one of the all time great jazz albums. It’s perfect.

That reminded me of Reg recommending listening to and transcribing Hank Mobley instead of practicing BH stuff LOL.

I mean, okay. But I think sometimes people like to offer the “just transcribe” advice, without considering that it’s also important to have a framework for understanding the transcription.

[grahambop]

Barry Harris is on loads of other people’s albums, here’s a list (probably incomplete) from wikipedia:

[Christian Miller]

I did not know either about the Mobley albums either TBH. Hank Mobley is someone I did not listen to much yet (but I will and not just because of BH but because I am always interested to get to know something new ).

yeah, I would fix that ;-). Soul Station is solid gold, but I’d also recommend workout with grant green.

But when I read



I felt tempted to reply something. You had already answered adequately while I remembered there was an older BH discography in the Internet Archive (the easiest way to log in and borrow is via a Google account if you have one). And among the first albums mentioned Barry played as a sideman for guess who. That reminded me of Reg recommending listening to and transcribing Hank Mobley instead of practicing BH stuff LOL. And then on most HM albums the bass is played by Paul Chambers who was one of Barry's earliest students ...

TBF I don’t disagree with Reg’s advice in general. transcribing Hank Mobley is one of the best ways to internalise all of this basic 50s language on a molecular level. It’s full of the stuff that Barry talks about like most players of that era

Aside from his records being great, he’s a common entry level choice in jazz edu for people who haven’t done much before because he’s simple and clear. Dexter is also a good entry level choice (More Power is great and has Barry on piano). Mostly 8th notes so a lot easier than Bird and Bud to start with.

In the long run it’s not an either/or. Barry knew all the Bud and Parker stuff backwards. He could say with some authority things like ‘bird never plays G7 on rhythm changes in bar 1’ and you bet your bottom dollar he’d learned every solo on record.

That said he’d have suggested learning heads first (Charles MacPherson says he’d not heard Barry talk much about working on solos, but a lot about learning heads.) heads will do the same for you, and have the bonus of being things you can play on gigs and jams.

Having tried to teach Barry’s stuff from day one I kind of think Barry is for people who can already play a bit of jazz and want to develop their playing.

But that’s me. Maybe others disagree.

I’d been going to Barry’s classes since 2006 but it only clicked for me when I really started digging into the music.

[GuyBoden]

Here's another I like too:

Descend |C-B-Bb-Gb-G-Gb-F-Eb|E-Eb-D-B-C---|

Ascend |C-B-D-Eb-E-Eb-F-Gb|G-Gb-Bb-B-C---|

Enjoy.


Edit:

To make it easy, here is the sequence notated.
(Notated chromatics can get complex, so all the accidental notes are notated as needed.)

[st.bede]

I often forget how important, deep focused listening is.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure I follow the ascending version. So maybe I'll describe the pattern on the descending one, as I perceive it, and you tell me if I wrong?

target notes are C, E, and G.

each note is approached from below by a chromatic half step, and left by two descending chromatic half steps.

Close?

Is the ascending that each note is left by a descending half step and approached by two ascending chromatic half steps?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Here's another I like too:

Descend |C-B-Bb-Gb-G-Gb-F-Eb|E-Eb-D-B-C---|

Ascend |C-B-D-Eb-E-Eb-F-Gb|G-Gb-Bb-B-C---|

Enjoy.


Edit:

To make it easy, here is the sequence notated.
(Notated chromatics can get complex, so all the accidental notes are notated as needed.)

Regarding "Ascending": Approaching the 3 chromatically from below and then going back to the minor third sounds strange for me. For me going down from the major to the minor third outlines going to a different chord, e.g. F7, G+, any Ab chord with a natural fifth etc. For me that is one note not working so well in this case.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I'm not sure I follow the ascending version. So maybe I'll describe the pattern on the descending one, as I perceive it, and you tell me if I wrong?

target notes are C, E, and G.

each note is approached from below by a chromatic half step, and left by two descending chromatic half steps.

Close?

Is the ascending that each note is left by a descending half step and approached by two ascending chromatic half steps?

As I understand it both are the C7 dominant scale (aka "myxolydian") [insert video quote "I never played a damn mode in my whole life" --BH-- LOL]

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

A traditional one, C7 descending

C G Bb A G Gb F Eb E C D B(b) C

and one ascending

C E D D# E G F F# G Bb A C Bb D C


EDIT: I corrected the descending one because there were some notes missing between scale notes:

C G Bb C A F# G Gb F Eb E C D B(b) C

[pamosmusic]

As I understand it both are the C7 dominant scale (aka "myxolydian") [insert video quote "I never played a damn mode in my whole life" --BH-- LOL]

Oh I see now. Hmm. Yeah I think it’s because when I play it, some of the intervals sound awkward. It feels more like a chromatic sequence than an embellishment of a scale figure

[GuyBoden]

I'm simply creating some chromatic sequences and keeping the sequences I like. I posted because I especially liked the descending sequence.

It sounds interesting to my ears, and yes, could be interpreted as a C Dom/Mix scale with added notes.
Descend |C-B-Bb-Gb-G-Gb-F-Eb|E-Eb-D-B-C---|
C Dom/Mix |C D E F G A Bb | added B Gb Eb


But, this is what I'd call a more Conventional Chromatic line.

[PMB]

Playing BH descending chromatics from each degree of the chords that make up a major ii-V-I progression helped me get the conventional form under my fingers and into my ears when I first came across the concept.