Has anyone finished 'the approach'? - The Advancing Guitarist

[paulkogut]

I know I'm being presumptuous to speak for Mick, but I feel like he'd say "strictly speaking, none of this is NECESSARY..."

It depends upon your goals, and the results you've seen so far in your practicing. I've been in situations where the leader of the gig has called for modulations (Wine and Roses f-Ab, Softly with the last 8 down a half step), played tunes that move through many keys (Cherokee, Song Is You) and had singers call familiar tunes in Gb or B instead of F or Bb, , for reasons they insist are crucial to the gig. All of those things have given me some real time feedback on how much I might need to practice in other keys vs counting on grips and shapes transferring over

PK

[jazznylon]

I know I'm being presumptuous to speak for Mick, but I feel like he'd say "strictly speaking, none of this is NECESSARY..."

It depends upon your goals, and the results you've seen so far in your practicing. I've been in situations where the leader of the gig has called for modulations (Wine and Roses f-Ab, Softly with the last 8 down a half step), played tunes that move through many keys (Cherokee, Song Is You) and had singers call familiar tunes in Gb or B instead of F or Bb, , for reasons they insist are crucial to the gig. All of those things have given me some real time feedback on how much I might need to practice in other keys vs counting on grips and shapes transferring over

PK

Thanks for that. I feel like thats something he would say too. I'm gonna go do the lydian chromatic thing now since I'm already accustomed to the parallel thing

[pamosmusic]

Hey everyone sorry for bringing this back as the thread lost steam but I gotta ask.. is doing the 12 keys things really necessary? So I'm doing the parallel scales having done everything in the key of C and now doing it in the key of E, now I'm just contemplating like in the case of fingering combinatorics if its really necessary to do it all. I mean if you think about it playing in a different key is the same thing except everything is shifted to a different location. So in a sense it seems like I'm wasting my time just repeating the same fingerings but now in different locations when all I need to do is find the root of the scale on the fretboard and from there I could go on. The only good thing I think that can come from this is that solidifies learning the shapes from doing so many repititions but if I know the shapes well enough (which I do) it seems kinda pointless. Idk, what are your thoughts on this? It can seem like I'm making excuses as I'm a completionist by heart but one can't help but ponder..

So I think my first question would be … when you say you’ve “done” the parallel scales in a key, what does that mean?

What does it mean to have “done” a scale?

Then the short answer: yes, twelve keys. But what that looks like in the end, depends on the answer to that first question.

[jazznylon]

So I think my first question would be … when you say you’ve “done” the parallel scales in a key, what does that mean?

What does it mean to have “done” a scale?

Then the short answer: yes, twelve keys. But what that looks like in the end, depends on the answer to that first question.

Yeah so what I mean by "done" is being able to improvise the parallel scales against a drone note in this case "C". For ideally 2 minutes each. Single Strings, Double Strings, Open Position, 12 Positions, then whole fretboard. Midway through all that it was difficult at first doing it in positions but I got used to it relatively quickly as soon as I practiced more positions. For difficult tunes I could see the use of practicing 12 keys but in this case no.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah so what I mean by "done" is being able to improvise the parallel scales against a drone note in this case "C". For ideally 2 minutes each. Single Strings, Double Strings, Open Position, 12 Positions, then whole fretboard. Midway through all that it was difficult at first doing it in positions but I got used to it relatively quickly as soon as I practiced more positions. For difficult tunes I could see the use of practicing 12 keys but in this case no.

Hmm. So the question is whether or not you need to do that with a drone of Db and D and Eb etc?

[jazznylon]

Hmm. So the question is whether or not you need to do that with a drone of Db and D and Eb etc?

Bingo

[pamosmusic]

Bingo

So the question would be, what do you want to get out of it?

If it’s an ear training exercise, then one key should be fine. If it’s for fretboard knowledge, then probably the other keys would be important. At least some of them. If I remember right, your goal is the latter.

But also not all the tasks are created equal in that respect. The positions are moveable, so a few keys would be fine. The double strings have a lot of patterns, so maybe more than a few but not all. The single strings and open positions aren’t moveable, so you’d imagine you’d need all twelve.

Is the problem that it feels repetitive or unnecessary when you move on?

[jazznylon]

So the question would be, what do you want to get out of it?

If it’s an ear training exercise, then one key should be fine. If it’s for fretboard knowledge, then probably the other keys would be important. At least some of them. If I remember right, your goal is the latter.

But also not all the tasks are created equal in that respect. The positions are moveable, so a few keys would be fine. The double strings have a lot of patterns, so maybe more than a few but not all. The single strings and open positions aren’t moveable, so you’d imagine you’d need all twelve.

Is the problem that it feels repetitive or unnecessary when you move on?

Yes to both. I think I may have been too hasty when I said that 'fretboard mastery' is my goal. The grind is necessary but once one realizes that things are not that much as it seems then its easy to get bored from the yawn-fest the practice session produces. I'm happy with the position work I've done though, at least that gave me a good challenge at first

[pamosmusic]

I guess the other question is how well you know each scale after one pass through. I guess two root notes would be enough to get you through all the key signatures, since the scales are in parallel.

But you could always keep going through them and each time you switch roots you could try something different. Have you done interval studies or triad studies, or maybe tried quartal triads and things like that through those scales? Each time you switch keys, you can also switch what aspect of the scale you’re dialing in on. Because you can never really be “done” with a scale, right?

Sometimes practicing the same thing, but like … not exactly the same thing … can be really helpful.

also that earlier answer … none of this is strictly speaking necessary. So if you’re bored and done with it, just be done with it. You can always come back later. Or not.

[pamosmusic]

Have you ever checked out The Serious Jazz Practice Book?

[jazznylon]

Have you ever checked out The Serious Jazz Practice Book?

No but I'm intrigued

I guess the other question is how well you know each scale after one pass through. I guess two root notes would be enough to get you through all the key signatures, since the scales are in parallel.

But you could always keep going through them and each time you switch roots you could try something different. Have you done interval studies or triad studies, or maybe tried quartal triads and things like that through those scales? Each time you switch keys, you can also switch what aspect of the scale you’re dialing in on. Because you can never really be “done” with a scale, right?

Sometimes practicing the same thing, but like … not exactly the same thing … can be really helpful.

also that earlier answer … none of this is strictly speaking necessary. So if you’re bored and done with it, just be done with it. You can always come back later. Or not.

I explored some of those ideas while improvising scales albeit rarely. Most of the time my improv is scalar with some leaps here and there thrown in for good measure. But its true that one is never really "done" with scales, theres always something to work on

[pamosmusic]

No but I'm intrigued



I explored some of those ideas while improvising scales albeit rarely. Most of the time my improv is scalar with some leaps here and there thrown in for good measure. But its true that one is never really "done" with scales, theres always something to work on

The book is just a huge compendium of crap you could do with a major scale. It’s not exhaustive, it’s all in C, and you could easily apply it to any other key or scale type. So it’s super useful.

And I guess that’s a chicken and egg situation. Are you working with steps and because your improvisation is mostly stepwise? Or Is the improvisation mostly stepwise because that’s what you’re working on?

[jazznylon]

The book is just a huge compendium of crap you could do with a major scale. It’s not exhaustive, it’s all in C, and you could easily apply it to any other key or scale type. So it’s super useful.

And I guess that’s a chicken and egg situation. Are you working with steps and because your improvisation is mostly stepwise? Or Is the improvisation mostly stepwise because that’s what you’re working on?

Thats interesting. I guess I could go ahead and take a look at it!

I'm working with steps because thats usually what my improv is. I think playing on single strings lends itself to this as its very easy to be in stepwise mode. Improvising arpeggios on single strings is pretty challenging! On positions I feel more options open up albeit with less possible phrasing but yeah thats what I take from all this

[pamosmusic]

Thats interesting. I guess I could go ahead and take a look at it!

I'm working with steps because thats usually what my improv is. I think playing on single strings lends itself to this as its very easy to be in stepwise mode. Improvising arpeggios on single strings is pretty challenging! On positions I feel more options open up albeit with less possible phrasing but yeah thats what I take from all this

Yeah those are tough. I did diatonic spread triads on single strings at one point. It’s a bear. Pairs of strings are super useful though. You don’t get easy patterns but jumping up two or three frets up to grab a wide interval is super doable.

[pauln]

Yes.. the only strings I have tuned is E - Ab - C and the pattern repeats. So lets say you have a 6 string guitar tuned in major 3rds.. you have the bottom 3 strings tuned as E - Ab - C and then you have the top 3 strings tuned E - Ab - C its the same thing tuned an octave higher. Its kind of like piano if you think about it

E to Ab is a diminished fourth
E to G# is a major third

G# to C is a diminished fourth
G# to B# is a major third

B# to E is a diminished fourth
B# to D## is a major third

D## to Ab is a triple diminished fifth
D## to F### is a major third

F### to C is a triple diminished fifth
F### to A### is a major third

A### to E is a triple diminished fifth
A### to C#### is a major third

[jazznylon]

E to Ab is a diminished fourth
E to G# is a major third

G# to C is a diminished fourth
G# to B# is a major third

B# to E is a diminished fourth
B# to D## is a major third

D## to Ab is a triple diminished fifth
D## to F### is a major third

F### to C is a triple diminished fifth
F### to A### is a major third

A### to E is a triple diminished fifth
A### to C#### is a major third

I'll stand corrected for the rest of my life lol

[pamosmusic]

E to Ab is a diminished fourth
E to G# is a major third

G# to C is a diminished fourth
G# to B# is a major third

B# to E is a diminished fourth
B# to D## is a major third

D## to Ab is a triple diminished fifth
D## to F### is a major third

F### to C is a triple diminished fifth
F### to A### is a major third

A### to E is a triple diminished fifth
A### to C#### is a major third

Savage.

[pauln]

Savage.

I know, he took it in the spirit intended.

The pitch intervals between the adjacent open strings are major thirds (five half-steps), but the numeric value of the interval between notes is the number of lines and spaces on the staff between them, inclusive (the "span") no matter the application of accidentals. Using enharmonic note names changes the numeric value of the interval name, etc.
Therefore, the same pitch interval may take different note interval numbers based on how it appears in the score - usually of little concern outside of composing for clarity or rigorous harmonic theory analysis.

[Christian Miller]

A man after my own, very pedantic, heart.

[jazznylon]

So I've been reading more about the lydian chromatic concept and apparantedly there is more than just 11 scales (7 vertical and 4 horizontal). There are multiple same chords within the 7 vertical scales that have different roots and from those you can build another 11 scales from the different tonic. So from my perspective since I'm just using a lowly drone note as a backing track there are 12 notes in the lydian chromatic scale that I have to play alongside with. So for instance C Lydian for C backing track, C Lydian for Db backing track, C Lydian for D backing track etc. And I have to do that through 11 of the parent scales (using the same key) against 12 possible roots. Its gonna take a while and it will get pretty dissonant but I'm always up for the challenge exploring new sounds.

[bako]

Playing in all keys (full range) in a singular location engenders multiple fingering solutions and in my opinion is worth the effort. Moving the same shape around has less to teach on the physical plane.
There is something to be gained by being able to think in all keys cause situations arise where this may matter.

[pamosmusic]

So I've been reading more about the lydian chromatic concept and apparantedly there is more than just 11 scales (7 vertical and 4 horizontal). There are multiple same chords within the 7 vertical scales that have different roots and from those you can build another 11 scales from the different tonic. So from my perspective since I'm just using a lowly drone note as a backing track there are 12 notes in the lydian chromatic scale that I have to play alongside with. So for instance C Lydian for C backing track, C Lydian for Db backing track, C Lydian for D backing track etc. And I have to do that through 11 of the parent scales (using the same key) against 12 possible roots. It’s gonna take a while and it will get pretty dissonant but I'm always up for the challenge exploring new sounds.

So is it possible that more sounds come from greater flexibility with less material, rather than more theoretical material?

I think sometimes we talk about knowing the fretboard like it’s flash cards or something — knowing where the scales are and that sort of thing. But being able to command the scales and get whatever sound out of them that you want is maybe what we’re actually talking about.

I get students a lot of the time who are really frustrated that they don’t know the fretboard, and think they need to learn notes and scales better, but when I quiz them, they know all the notes and can play a lot of scales. In the end they just don’t feel like they can use what they know.

Its like knowing tons of words in a new language but not knowing the grammar.

[pamosmusic]

Playing in all keys (full range) in a singular location engenders multiple fingering solutions and in my opinion is worth the effort. Moving the same shape around has less to teach on the physical plane.
There is something to be gained by being able to think in all keys cause situations arise where this may matter.

I guess that’s true but I tend to think there’s more value in moving positions around. Guitar is something you do, not just something you know. By which I mean, even if the pattern is the same, when you move it up even just one fret, you’re playing it on a slightly different instrument—narrower frets, slightly higher action, slightly different string tension. I tend to think that makes more of a difference than people like to think. The fewer positions you play a pattern in, the more likely you are to feel off balance when you do something musically demanding, like improvise.

[jazznylon]

Improvising through these scales got me thinking... The african american blues scale is awesome. But more than that I've been thinking of reducing the possibilities on what to practice on guitar. So for instance since I have only 3 different open strings due to my tuning I could just practice 3 strings instead of 6. Or heck I could just practice 1 string since the pattern gets shifted around in a predictable matter, then a pair of double strings, then 4 positions (since the pattern repeats itself displaced by 1 string), then whole neck. If this was piano I would definitedly practice in 12 keys, the fingerings would demand it. But since this is guitar.. might as well take every advantage one could get and run with it. Personally my opinion of course

[pamosmusic]

Improvising through these scales got me thinking... The african american blues scale is awesome. But more than that I've been thinking of reducing the possibilities on what to practice on guitar. So for instance since I have only 3 different open strings due to my tuning I could just practice 3 strings instead of 6. Or heck I could just practice 1 string since the pattern gets shifted around in a predictable matter, then a pair of double strings, then 4 positions (since the pattern repeats itself displaced by 1 string), then whole neck. If this was piano I would definitedly practice in 12 keys, the fingerings would demand it. But since this is guitar.. might as well take every advantage one could get and run with it. Personally my opinion of course

So here’s a question … pianists practice in all twelve keys for obvious reasons. But why do they practice in several octaves?