Has anyone finished 'the approach'? - The Advancing Guitarist

[jazznylon]

So here’s a question … pianists practice in all twelve keys for obvious reasons. But why do they practice in several octaves?

If I had to guess why its because they paid for those keys so might as well play them too

[FwLineberry]

I can tell you from experience that thinking "to play in Eb, all I have to do is move everything in E down a fret" is a recipe for fumbling around on the fretboard when you're onstage and it's time to go for it.

YMMV

.

[pamosmusic]

If I had to guess why its because they paid for those keys so might as well play them too

Hahahaha … I mean … yeah.

But also they have to reach out to those higher and lower octaves. They can’t just move the bench. Angle of the wrist to the hands changes, angle of the hands to the keys. It’s a different instrument. Not totally … but enough to make a difference. Just because you can execute an idea at middle C doesn’t mean you can execute it three octaves higher or lower. We have a similar problem with string gauge, action, and fret width making the difference.

Anyway … my point is that any place you choose to draw the line will be arbitrary. Playing just over three of your strings will help you visualize patterns, but will be limited in how much it helps you actually execute them. I know the top three strings are tuned the same as the lower three, but I imagine their a much thinner string gauge, no? Playing a pattern on one string where the successive major seconds are on the higher frets will be limited in helping you execute the same pattern when those major seconds are in first and second position because the frets are so much wider.

So I think when you take on a big project like this, it really helps to have super defined goals. If the goal is “to be able to improvise,” then it’s hard to know what you’re after or where to stop. Improvise how, with what material, what do you want to sound like?

When you start something like this, try choosing one tonality (harmonic minor, maybe) and try to set a specific goal (to be able to play wide intervals fluently). So then you know you have positions, string sets, keys, and intervals to get through. Maybe you do sixths one day and go through different keys. Positions in A minor, string sets in D minor, positions in G minor, single strings in C minor etc. You can switch the orientation of the pattern with each key. The next day you so fourths, fifths, whatever. Each day have a different drone going — the 1 of the key one day, the 2 the next day, the 3 the day after, etc.

But when you know what your goal is, you’re able to reduce the workload. You’re able to get through every key, get through every drone, get through tons of melodic material, get through all the range restrictions — but you don’t have to play every possible combination thereof because you have a focus.

and I know you’re trying to be complete, but (1) there is no possible way to be complete, and (2) no one says you have to stop when you’re done. You can move on to melodic minor next, or whatever, but having little weigh stations along the way can help you to evaluate where you want to go next. Do I want to do diatonic triads in harmonic minor next, or the same intervals but in melodic minor? ** or am I tired of this and in need of a break**

You can always come back later. You will come back later. Because “finished” isn’t something we can be.

I don’t know. Just a thought.

[jazznylon]

Hahahaha … I mean … yeah.

But also they have to reach out to those higher and lower octaves. They can’t just move the bench. Angle of the wrist to the hands changes, angle of the hands to the keys. It’s a different instrument. Not totally … but enough to make a difference. Just because you can execute an idea at middle C doesn’t mean you can execute it three octaves higher or lower. We have a similar problem with string gauge, action, and fret width making the difference.

Anyway … my point is that any place you choose to draw the line will be arbitrary. Playing just over three of your strings will help you visualize patterns, but will be limited in how much it helps you actually execute them. I know the top three strings are tuned the same as the lower three, but I imagine their a much thinner string gauge, no? Playing a pattern on one string where the successive major seconds are on the higher frets will be limited in helping you execute the same pattern when those major seconds are in first and second position because the frets are so much wider.

So I think when you take on a big project like this, it really helps to have super defined goals. If the goal is “to be able to improvise,” then it’s hard to know what you’re after or where to stop. Improvise how, with what material, what do you want to sound like?

When you start something like this, try choosing one tonality (harmonic minor, maybe) and try to set a specific goal (to be able to play wide intervals fluently). So then you know you have positions, string sets, keys, and intervals to get through. Maybe you do sixths one day and go through different keys. Positions in A minor, string sets in D minor, positions in G minor, single strings in C minor etc. You can switch the orientation of the pattern with each key. The next day you so fourths, fifths, whatever. Each day have a different drone going — the 1 of the key one day, the 2 the next day, the 3 the day after, etc.

But when you know what your goal is, you’re able to reduce the workload. You’re able to get through every key, get through every drone, get through tons of melodic material, get through all the range restrictions — but you don’t have to play every possible combination thereof because you have a focus.

and I know you’re trying to be complete, but (1) there is no possible way to be complete, and (2) no one says you have to stop when you’re done. You can move on to melodic minor next, or whatever, but having little weigh stations along the way can help you to evaluate where you want to go next. Do I want to do diatonic triads in harmonic minor next, or the same intervals but in melodic minor? ** or am I tired of this and in need of a break**

You can always come back later. You will come back later. Because “finished” isn’t something we can be.

I don’t know. Just a thought.

I see. Well I guess if nothings truly finish then I see no point in continuing what I was doing. In any case I'll just learn tunes, transcribe the masters, and get a teacher. I'll do whatever is expected of me and that'll be the end of that. Hopefully by then I'll be a great jazz player even though its a vague goal

[pamosmusic]

I see. Well I guess if nothings truly finish then I see no point in continuing what I was doing. In any case I'll just learn tunes, transcribe the masters, and get a teacher. I'll do whatever is expected of me and that'll be the end of that. Hopefully by then I'll be a great jazz player even though its a vague goal

I didn’t mean “give up and stop.” I just meant, that you shouldn’t hesitate to be specific too, even though it might seem like a deviation from the plan.

I kind of went at stuff for a long time the way you’re describing and I burned out and quit playing for three years. I still like working on this kind of stuff, but the mentality shift was beneficial. Thinking that something enormous is finish-able means I have to finish it, and if I don’t, then it’s some fault of mine. If something is not possible to finish, then I just do what I can, take detours when invited, and take breaks when necessary.

Anyway. You don’t need to do what’s expected of you, but you seem like you were looking for thoughts when you post your updates and stuff. Not everybody’s brain works the same way, so take it or leave it. I didn’t mean to be pushy.

[jazznylon]

I didn’t mean “give up and stop.” I just meant, that you shouldn’t hesitate to be specific too, even though it might seem like a deviation from the plan.

I kind of went at stuff for a long time the way you’re describing and I burned out and quit playing for three years. I still like working on this kind of stuff, but the mentality shift was beneficial. Thinking that something enormous is finish-able means I have to finish it, and if I don’t, then it’s some fault of mine. If something is not possible to finish, then I just do what I can, take detours when invited, and take breaks when necessary.

Anyway. You don’t need to do what’s expected of you, but you seem like you were looking for thoughts when you post your updates and stuff. Not everybody’s brain works the same way, so take it or leave it. I didn’t mean to be pushy.

Its cool! Don't worry about it, I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'm a stubborn guy so it can be hard to change my mind.. !

[st.bede]

My brain is amazing at telling what to practice. I intuitively know when I am losing ideas or technique. I intuitively know when I have to change an approach.

Sometimes when things are not giving me as much as I hoped, I look for something that does more for me.

Maybe I was not ready yet to get the most from something. Maybe after some more technique, theory, or ear training that past set of practices will click and become part of my musical vocabulary.

The big question for me is, will I listen to myself.

I do not think anything I practiced is wasted time or meaningless. Somethings are just more useful then others.

Everyone has their own path.

[jazznylon]

My brain is amazing at telling what to practice. I intuitively know when I am losing ideas or technique. I intuitively know when I have to change an approach.

Sometimes when things are not giving me as much as I hoped, I look for something that does more for me.

Maybe I was not ready yet to get the most from something. Maybe after some more technique, theory, or ear training that past set of practices will click and become part of my musical vocabulary.

The big question for me is, will I listen to myself.

I do not think anything I practiced is wasted time or meaningless. Somethings are just more useful then others.

Everyone has their own path.

Lucky you! I wish I was in that same boat but it looks like I do need a teacher to guide me after all. I have not regret my time spent on this book (though there were questionable times like using all fingering combinatorics which ate up a massive chunk of my time). All in all I'm satisfied with the progress I made regardless

[Christian Miller]

Sooner or later we all have to make our peace with the Abyss.

I believe it an important function of the teacher to show the student - at the right time, maybe undergrad level - that they are utterly insignificant their years of study are against the oceanic totality of music. If the existential crisis leaves them still hungry to practice and play music, you have something to work with. If it’s too much for them, this game probably isn’t for them long term.

(this came embarrassingly late in life for me.)

The frightening truth - any one school or book represents only one approach and one set of possibilities, even something as apparently exhaustive as the VLA books. You couldn’t learn it all in a hundred lifetimes.

it might seem like some people know everything, but they don’t.

We often think of Creativity as opening doors, but actually I think it’s as much about closing doors. You select possibilities and effectively deny others, at least for a while. Sometimes the best creative energy comes from having a door closed on you, or choosing to close it yourself. In many cases you have to select what is important to you, which is the hardest bit. Freedom of choice can be very tyrannical.

sometimes I want to lock myself in a room and listen to no other guitar players, because as soon as I hear someone amazing on a conceptual level, I still childishly want to play like them haha, learn their concept. But it doesn’t have to be like that. And they are all different and have mapped out different corners of the Big Room. I respect the singularity of focus of players like Jordan for example. I kind of think of it as a bit of a New York thing.

As far as learning this stuff goes - look on it as developing a process. It’s amazing what you can learn. You might not be able to learn it all, but you can get develop tremendously in not so much time if you can keep that consistent, focussed, work going.

[Christian Miller]

My brain is amazing at telling what to practice. I intuitively know when I am losing ideas or technique. I intuitively know when I have to change an approach.

Sometimes when things are not giving me as much as I hoped, I look for something that does more for me.

Maybe I was not ready yet to get the most from something. Maybe after some more technique, theory, or ear training that past set of practices will click and become part of my musical vocabulary.

The big question for me is, will I listen to myself.

I do not think anything I practiced is wasted time or meaningless. Somethings are just more useful then others.

Everyone has their own path.

Gigs are amazing at telling me what to practice. Left to my own devices I go a bit mad.

[pamosmusic]

We often think of Creativity as opening doors, but actually I think it’s as much about closing doors. You select possibilities and effectively deny others, at least for a while. Sometimes the best creative energy comes from having a door closed on you, or choosing to close it yourself. In many cases you have to select what is important to you, which is the hardest bit. Freedom of choice can be very tyrannical.

I used to work Monday nights at the Jazz Standard, which was the Mingus Big Band’s ten year residency. I got a shirt that has the famous Mingus quote on the back:

“Making the simple complicated is commonplace--making the complicated simple, awesomely simple--that's creativity.”

I respect the singularity of focus of players like Jordan for example. I kind of think of it as a bit of a New York thing.

I wish.

[jazznylon]

Sooner or later we all have to make our peace with the Abyss.

I believe it an important function of the teacher to show the student - at the right time, maybe undergrad level - that they are utterly insignificant their years of study are against the oceanic totality of music. If the existential crisis leaves them still hungry to practice and play music, you have something to work with. If it’s too much for them, this game probably isn’t for them long term.

(this came embarrassingly late in life for me.)

The frightening truth - any one school or book represents only one approach and one set of possibilities, even something as apparently exhaustive as the VLA books. You couldn’t learn it all in a hundred lifetimes.

it might seem like some people know everything, but they don’t.

We often think of Creativity as opening doors, but actually I think it’s as much about closing doors. You select possibilities and effectively deny others, at least for a while. Sometimes the best creative energy comes from having a door closed on you, or choosing to close it yourself. In many cases you have to select what is important to you, which is the hardest bit. Freedom of choice can be very tyrannical.

sometimes I want to lock myself in a room and listen to no other guitar players, because as soon as I hear someone amazing on a conceptual level, I still childishly want to play like them haha, learn their concept. But it doesn’t have to be like that. And they are all different and have mapped out different corners of the Big Room. I respect the singularity of focus of players like Jordan for example. I kind of think of it as a bit of a New York thing.

As far as learning this stuff goes - look on it as developing a process. It’s amazing what you can learn. You might not be able to learn it all, but you can get develop tremendously in not so much time if you can keep that consistent, focussed, work going.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I wish I could do it all but the human lifespan is a fickle thing. Ah well, back to tunes!

[wolflen]

major third tuning,,,???

E G# C E G# C ???

[jazznylon]

major third tuning,,,???

E G# C E G# C ???

Yep! Chords and scales are easier to learn but its like a different instrument at this point (save for the low E string)

[st.bede]

Gigs are amazing at telling me what to practice. Left to my own devices I go a bit mad.

As far as playing live, that can hit me in the gut… I get to really find out what I have internalized or not.

Also sight reading lead sheets while playing with some one else has a similar impact. You count it off and you go.

[Christian Miller]

I like to dig out a random lead sheet for a tune I’ve never heard and record the tune (usually bass, comping, melody and solo). It’s a fun way to practice

[jazznylon]

Inspired by 'the value of the exercise' thread I had some thoughts about what to work on technique in general. There are many possibilities to consider but one possible thought that came to mind is to play a challenging head (for example 26-2) solely on a single string or position, and possibly do it in all 12 keys as well. Or heck play the melody but with 3 note chords in tempo. Theres no end to this stuff but at least one is working on tunes with the focus on technique. That said I would work 4 hours on things I would actually play on gigs (learning tunes like a normal human being lol). The rest of my time dedicated to crazy technique work.

I like the 'in it, what's in it - no regrets' section of the book since he goes over what an incredible improvising guitarist would be like - having exceptional chops, know every tune etc. Thinking to myself it would be really nice to have those things.. but yeah anything is possible

[pamosmusic]

Inspired by 'the value of the exercise' thread I had some thoughts about what to work on technique in general. There are many possibilities to consider but one possible thought that came to mind is to play a challenging head (for example 26-2) solely on a single string or position, and possibly do it in all 12 keys as well. Or heck play the melody but with 3 note chords in tempo. Theres no end to this stuff but at least one is working on tunes with the focus on technique. That said I would work 4 hours on things I would actually play on gigs (learning tunes like a normal human being lol). The rest of my time dedicated to crazy technique work.

I like the 'in it, what's in it - no regrets' section of the book since he goes over what an incredible improvising guitarist would be like - having exceptional chops, know every tune etc. Thinking to myself it would be really nice to have those things.. but yeah anything is possible

I play bebop heads in all positions. Especially when you’re working on articulations and stuff, that can be wicked.

Imagine one of those sixteenth note triplet turns—Bb C Bb maybe—where the two are on the same string. Then when the two are on different strings. Little things like that make for some wild technical practice.

Or if you’re trying to group accents or slurs rhythmically, then where things fall on different strings when you switch positions can be brutal too.

Super fun, and great practice.

[jazznylon]

I play bebop heads in all positions. Especially when you’re working on articulations and stuff, that can be wicked.

Imagine one of those sixteenth note triplet turns—Bb C Bb maybe—where the two are on the same string. Then when the two are on different strings. Little things like that make for some wild technical practice.

Or if you’re trying to group accents or slurs rhythmically, then where things fall on different strings when you switch positions can be brutal too.

Super fun, and great practice.

Very nice I can see how that can be challenging (the sixteenth note triple thing on different strings) especially doing it with a pick. Thats nutty

[pamosmusic]

Very nice I can see how that can be challenging (the sixteenth note triple thing on different strings) especially doing it with a pick. Thats nutty

Been doing it for about twenty minutes a day for a year and a half or so now. I also try to hammer on or pull off into all the downbeats where possible. So that changes in each position.

kind of etudes in articulation.

[Christian Miller]

Been doing it for about twenty minutes a day for a year and a half or so now. I also try to hammer on or pull off into all the downbeats where possible. So that changes in each position.

kind of etudes in articulation.

shhhh don’t tell Holger

[pamosmusic]

shhhh don’t tell Holger

This reference went over my head.

[Jimmy blue note]

This reference went over my head.

Holger was an obscure and oft overlooked 19th century astronomer.
Clever comment about going over your head.
Nice one.

[pamosmusic]

Holger was an obscure and oft overlooked 19th century astronomer.
Clever comment about going over your head.
Nice one.

Oh yes exactly.

Clever.

Thats exactly how I meant it.

[Reg]

I though Holger was another old guitarist from old days on this forum.