Melody raw material

[Bobby Timmons]

I've discovered a methodical and accurate way to practice and visualize melody shape for solos. Combined with rhythmic vocab and phrasing, it results in musical melodies. It's a given that it must also be facilitated with musicianship, but the guesswork is greatly reduced, and the reliance on long term raw abstract absorption is reduced.

Scales, arps, intervals, chromatics.

When you think about it, those are the only possible shapes a melody can take anyway, so how would it not be effective? You always hear scales or scales and arps, but I've never heard of this combo before. I think it's pretty conclusive.

If you're mad at theory, please take it somewhere else. It's a given that theory must be facilitated with musicianship and won't yield musicality on its own.

[Christian Miller]

In my experience translating melodies to the instrument is less of a challenge than being able to remember how the bloody music goes to begin with and being able to hear its intricacies in detail. Once that work is done, actually playing it usually takes care of itself.

[Christian Miller]

Might just be me though

[Christian Miller]

Fwiw lots of musicians relate what they hear mentally to the keyboard, even horn players

[Bobby Timmons]

In my experience translating melodies to the instrument is less of a challenge than being able to remember how the bloody music goes to begin with and being able to hear its intricacies in detail. Once that work is done, actually playing it usually takes care of itself.

Like a lot of people, I don't naturally have the ability to go from a sound or feeling in my head to the mechanics on the instrument. When I got these principles under my fingers it seems like the theory of it isn't far off from the musicality of it and they facilitate each other and run together. Feels like I'm free to just play melodies, rather than my newbie mindset of having a scale and not really knowing how to formulate melodies other than trying really hard to be creative or working on osmosis.

[Christian Miller]

Like a lot of people, I don't naturally have the ability to go from a sound or feeling in my head to the mechanics on the instrument. When I got these principles under my fingers it seems like the theory of it isn't far off from the musicality of it and they facilitate each other and run together. Feels like I'm free to just play melodies, rather than my newbie mindset of having a scale and not really knowing how to formulate melodies other than trying really hard to be creative or working on osmosis.

well I don’t know about organ but the number 1 thing I see guitarists do to sabotage their chances is noodle before they have a good idea of what it is they are trying to play and underestimate the amount of listens it sometimes takes to hear something.

I suspect this is one reason why Lennie Tristano put so much value on players singing solos and heads all the way through before playing. Not that I usually go that hardcore.

[Liarspoker]

Well scales, arpeggios and chromatics really are intervals aren't they. So yeah, intervals...

[vintagelove]

Hmmm,


There are some other resources you can draw from, but the are often not in the "humable" melody category. Probably the most prevalent being the idiomatic nature of an instrument.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Yeah idiomatic customs of the instrument are good, I try to work on those.

Well scales, arpeggios and chromatics really are intervals aren't they. So yeah, intervals...

Yes scales and arps are composed of intervals, but not every type of interval. The idea is to have an accurate framework for melody language that is the majority of the way there to actual music. Instead of having the mindset that any framework won't really be musical and having no process for formulating good melodies other than saying transcribe a bunch of stuff and be creative, good luck.

well I don’t know about organ but the number 1 thing I see guitarists do to sabotage their chances is noodle before they have a good idea of what it is they are trying to play and underestimate the amount of listens it sometimes takes to hear something.

I suspect this is one reason why Lennie Tristano put so much value on players singing solos and heads all the way through before playing. Not that I usually go that hardcore.

I try to cultivate both approaches of hear something and execute it and also use theory to formulate ideas that will be accurate to how I want it to sound and musical. Scales, arps, intervals, chromatics gets me the majority of the way there to musicality and I can go the rest of the way with my creativity. Rather than having no adequate framework and putting the responsibility all on creativity or experience. I've been at this approach for about 3 months I think and I'm really happy with it. In fact, in that time melody jumped up from being one of my shoddy suits to a strong suit and I immediately have other things to work on.

[fep]

I think this is a good explanation about creating melodies.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ That's why I think intervals are extremely important. They emote a lot differently, expressively, accurately, than only using scales and arps and begin to develop a melody effectively. Notice he also goes over the rest of melody contour mentioning stepwise motion.

I'm just focusing on melody shape or note raw material. Also great his explanation of motif development and how to sing melodies.

[Tal_175]

There are steps, skips, leaps and chromatics. I think by intervals you mean leaps (they are all intervals).
Ornamentations, inflections and dynamics are also a big part of melodic phrasing. For example Blues inflection is not easily captured with just thinking intervals:

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm focusing on only note raw material in this discussion. Yes there are other aspects to melody like I mentioned in the op. Rhythmic vocab, phrasing, inflection like you said. And yes, intervals are leaps, but you can also make ideas with only intervals or predominantly intervals. A leap implies only 1 interval within a stepwise melody.

[Litterick]

Word association football: you say 'intervals', and I think 'Boulez'. And so did someone else:

Pierre Boulez guitar techniques for improvisation and composition

Raw.

[pauln]

Abstract absorption - let's get it over with

intervals
..............scales
........................diatonic
..................................chromatic
........................nondiatonic
..................................arps
............................................tertiary (chord tone, alterations, extensions)
............................................nontertiary (diminished*, augmented, whole tone)

Of scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics
the prime constructive unit is the interval
by which arps, scales, and chromatic are
comprised. Chromatics (if strictly so) may
be diatonic scales, if "scales" proper is so
meant to mean diatonic scales. The arps
might also be seen as nondiatonic scales
of two types, "tertiary chord tone" scales
including their extensions and alterations,
and nontertiary - diminished, augmented,
and whole tone scales but played as arps.

*It makes sense to include the diminished
arps (scales) as tertiary, even though not.
Or change tertiary to the chord tones and
their extensions and alterations, if clearer.
Then, the diminished arp (scale) becomes
the non-chord tone, nondiatonic arpeggio.

[Reg]

Jimmy are you talking about creating melody with reference to anything?... or just spontaneous melody. There might be an elephant in the room.

[John A.]

I've discovered a concrete and accurate way to conceive the building blocks of melody. Combined with rhythmic vocab and phrasing, it results in musical melodies. It's a given that it must also be facilitated with musicianship, but the guesswork is greatly reduced, and the reliance on long term raw abstract absorption is reduced.

Scales, arps, intervals, chromatics.

When you think about it, those are the only possible shapes a melody can take anyway, so how would it not be accurate? You always hear scales or scales and arps, but I've never heard of this combo before. I think it's pretty conclusive.

If you're mad at theory, please take it somewhere else. It's a given that theory must be facilitated with musicianship and won't yield musicality on its own.

What do you mean by "conceive of the building blocks of melody"? Can you expand on this, and maybe provide an example or two. I mean I know what all the words in your sentences mean. But your actual sentences seem kind of word salad-y to me, so I assume I'm missing something.

I'm not mad at theory, just disappointed.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I know you're disappointed. That's why I'm sharing this extremely helpful tip with you. I'm talking about a process for theory to practice that gets you most of the way there to it being an actual melody. Those are the only possible ways for melody to shape itself. So if you use those as your exercises and practice combining them, your theory raw material that you practice becomes actual melody. So your theory framework and actual melody is the same. Not here are some unmusical scales, I'd better get into hard core creativity mode or have transcribed for 20 years to arbitrarily pick up how to make lines.

Jimmy are you talking about creating melody with reference to anything?... or just spontaneous melody. There might be an elephant in the room.

Mostly talking about soloing where you have to had practiced how to outline changes. And the material has to be somewhat dense rhythmically and you have to use a reasonable amount of notes to get going. But it works for any melody for its shape.

[pauln]

I've discovered a concrete and accurate way to conceive the building blocks of melody... ...results in musical melodies... Scales, arps, intervals, chromatics.

If all melodies comprise "scales, arps, intervals, chromatics",
then any melody you play, no matter how nice or lame, must
be also composed of these same building blocks. I don't see
how knowing this discovery changes anything; you make no
reference to how this concrete and accurate conception can
ensure the result of musical melodies. Under this conception
a non-musical melody would be made of the same stuff: how
is the non-musical melody identified and excluded by all this?

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Because in jazz you have to have practiced how to get chops under your belt which hit the changes and sequence motifs all in time. If you don't practice that, whatever your method, you won't sound good or effective. This way what you practice is actual jazz solo language.

Look at a Tal solo. That's how melody shapes itself to make authentic sounding lines. If you practice scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics individually and practice combining them, you're literally practicing jazz solo melody material. Rather than the process be arbitrary with unmusical theory on one hand and creativity and osmosis on the other hand.

[AllanAllen]

Man just let it go, we don’t need another 15 page theory vs ear circle jerk.

[Bobby Timmons]

I know. I literally contemplated if I should start a thread or not. Then thought yes I should because I discovered an extremely accurate way to take raw theory and make authentic jazz solo melody and it could help people. I guess not. Their instinct is to make neurotic posts and patronize me.

[James W]

Word association football: you say 'intervals', and I think 'Boulez'. And so did someone else:

Pierre Boulez guitar techniques for improvisation and composition

Raw.

Looks like a fascinating link; thanks for bringing our attention to't.

[pauln]

Maybe things would have been different if rather than offering a parts list of bolts, washers, wires, and lights you had presented the machine itself and explained or demonstrated how it works... but you're still just repeating "I discovered an extremely accurate way to..."

I'm actually interested in entertaining it; please give it another try with the idea of conveying it so that how it works might be understood.

[grahambop]

Jerry Bergonzi does interesting stuff just using simple shapes/sequences, e.g.