Melody raw material

[KingKong]

Well, for the most part, no. Barry Harris's insight was more informed by analysing the vocabulary of the original bebop gang. There are specific ideas that he extracted from the vocabulary and devised a way to teach students how to create lines with them. The concepts aren't generic like described by Jimmy which is what makes them very useful. Also application of the concepts are always in the context of harmony and resolution patterns.

?? What do you want Jimmy to do, write a book or something? Forgive me if I'm wrong Jimmy but I don't think you created the thread to show off some amazing ground breaking never been done before discovery, but rather to share a lightbulb moment of inspiration you had.

On the insights , sorry I disagree. Let's say I go, 'hang on if I build licks using this formula , it's pretty cool' , then I see the same formula in someone's book, I'm gonna feel pretty good about that.
Barry Harris must have had a similar insight to Jimmy's, that the original bebop were using formulae to build their licks.

[Tal_175]

Barry Harris must have had a similar insight to Jimmy's, that the original bebop were using formulae to build their licks.

Lol.

[Bobby Timmons]

Thanks KingKong. Tal, I believe the steps in my discovery were:

1. I saw Pebber Brown's clip on running interval sequences.
2. I saw the BH material on scales, arps, and chromatics here and thought that was pretty elegant for a methodical practice approach. (Haven't seen anything including intervals so far, that would be cool if you'd post it.)
3. Thought hey maybe if I added intervals to BH style exercises that would be insane for melody possibilities.
4. Listened and read the pros' solos and went holy crap that's exactly what solo material is.
5. Posted the idea on my rock forum and a guy brought up chromatics.
6. Pondered how to finalize the parameters for melody shape and decided on scales, arps, intervals, chromatics. Further realized that those are the only possible shapes that solos can take and further realized how the pros use them in their lines. It's always those 4 or at least 3 of them.

Also, if you're going to be hostile, you can get off my thread. I'm not doing anything which should agitate anyone.

[Bobby Timmons]

Here's my vid. Now I'm going to go hide.

[pauln]

I think I am seeing it. For example is "Arp up, scale down"

The reason for arp up scale down is for phrasing of lines:
- moving up is exciting
- moving up in bigger steps is more exciting
- moving down is relaxing
- moving down in smaller steps is more relaxing

So conceptually "Arp up, scale down" is application of those
rudiments to evoke melodic expression of tension->release.

So the various combinations and sequences support a wide
vocabulary of melodic expression. Practice decides the best.

[Bobby Timmons]

Yes, absolutely. Good explanation. Then you get to learn how the different shape topics emote differently and can use them more effectively.

[Litterick]

What is the purpose of your comment? I didn't say it was easy, everyone knows jazz is hard. The process can be clarified though. Please don't participate if you're going to be destructive.

I am sceptical, but not destructive. I would like you to show us what you are proposing. I do not see how your method would produce jazz, rather than any other genre of music. I think you would need specifically jazzy components: tensions, extensions and additions. I also do not see where the arpeggios come from, since you have not included chords in your system. I wonder what you will do, once a melody has emerged from your practice: will you improvise upon it?

Others might say jazz is all about improvising on an existing melody, so what you are doing is not jazz; but I am not among them.

[Bobby Timmons]

I do not see how your method would produce jazz, rather than any other genre of music.

It would be effective for any kind of melody creation.

I think you would need specifically jazzy components: tensions, extensions and additions.

Yes, those are other topics that would be given to play jazz. If you read the thread I said it was about note choices for melody shape. There are other topics like rhythm, phrasing. And yes, you would obviously have to use extensions and utilize tension and release.

I also do not see where the arpeggios come from, since you have not included chords in your system. I wonder what you will do, once a melody has emerged from your practice: will you improvise upon it? Others might say jazz is all about improvising on an existing melody, so what you are doing is not jazz; but I am not among them.

Litterick: honestly, if you can't hear or at least read that the majority of advanced jazz improv is playing off the changes then that really shows your level. You shouldn't be so critical if you don't grasp something as basic as that.

[pauln]

I think you would need specifically jazzy components: tensions, extensions and additions.

Right; the example of "arp up scale down" as one way to produce
tension-resolution,
the same rudiments may be used to express the jazz components
inside-outside
warm-cool
swing-bop
chord tone-extended
extended-altered
linear-intervalic
Advocating the deliberate exploratory practice to find which of the
rudiment manipulations may be used to express jazz components.
I think it is likely that many come to these things through time, but
the thing here is to deliberately hunt them down systematically to
evaluate, and by so doing then build up an expressive vocabulary.
It's the context of the evaluation which makes it a jazz vocabulary.

[John A.]

Here's my vid. Now I'm going to go hide.

Ah, now I see what you mean.

[Litterick]

Jimmy, of course I know about changes. I don't know why you think the opposite and I don't care. There is no point in discussing anything with you, because you are always so defensive and unpleasant. Besides, it is obvious you have nothing worth taking about.

[grahambop]

A useful approach is to take any melodic idea or motif that you come up with, and take it through the changes of a tune. Kind of thing Jerry Bergonzi does throughout the DVDs I mentioned earlier.

[CliffR]

Jens Larsen advocates this sort of practice. Here's a recent video where the first two 'tips' describe using interval skips and chromatic leading notes with scales:

He's done many videos in this vein: well worth checking out in my opinion. As well as practicing these combinations in exercises, he suggests you spend time combining these various building blocks to compose your own lines.

[Reg]

Hey Jimmy.... do whatever it take to get better technique. Part of that can be becoming aware of musical organization of the actual music your playing... which can be called Performance Technique etc.

I did think your technique sounded better, like your improving... keep it up. Great to see and hear. Good technique allows one to play however they want with whatever explanation they choose.

keep posting...

[Bobby Timmons]

Thanks. I'm naturally going to play more jankity when I'm trying to do a lil lecture as I'm not a lecturer. :P However, I agree with you that technique is a weakness of mine. I would like to be able to jump right into material and be able to execute it well. I was talking with my teacher that I figured out why blues vocab with the double stops is tougher for me. I thought well theory is my strong suit so maybe it's ear.. no it's not ear, I can hear what's going on.. it's technique! So yeah, I agree with you, I had independently come to that conclusion that I should work on technique. I had also been thinking between practicing technique in exercises vs performance. Now you mention that there's performance technique. I'm going to investigate that and see if there are any tips I can pick up about that.

[Reg]

Hey... Jimmy I thought you were improving, I wasn't trying to get on your technique thing. I was trying to complement LOL. I can hear and see pretty easily at what level one can play. Anyway Performance technique is like playing live... being able to perform what one hasn't played, as well as the actual performance. How one can interact and react in ensemble as well as solo performance. Knowing where the music is coming from as well as what are the possibilities of where it might go... as well as being in the moment. Sounds more complicated that it is.

Understanding "Form" and how it can also be developed or improvised... and how to fill that space with musical organization ... with kind of how Fep said about Function... "Context", at least thinking of context as a reference from which Function can be organized.

Like Mark has wonderful solo performance technique... (except for those little peaks as his fretboard...LOL). I hope he doesn't read that, I love and have always has nothing but respect for his playing. Anyway, performance technique is being able to use theory, ( or whatever someone wants to call their ability to verbally understand musically what they are playing) and their technique to play "live" with respect to the music as well as the other musicians.

Anyway... I posted about it long ago... We can get into it again.

Thanks Reg

[Bobby Timmons]

Thanks, I see. My main goal now is to get it all together and start playing solidly using technique and the details you mentioned. I made a list of things that my teacher has taught me that I want to focus on to play solidly.

Guidelines for Tony quality playing
1. keep time and groove
2. keep the form
3. play correctly
4. phrase (solo) melody well
5. use different colors for (solo) melody
6. play backrounds behind the melody
7. use good harmony including color tones in your chords and make chord melody melodic
8. play good bass which outlines the changes and sounds good
9. punctuate the tune by changing sounds at key sections and use good cockpit management
10. use your skills to evoke the feeling you want and provide some excitement, tension and resolvement
11. practice bass and comp to get a foundation and use rhythmic patterns for comp

Here's a clip of less jankity and more in the zone playing.