Melody raw material

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Fantastic demonstration on motif creation. That obviously has to be expanded and include longer lines. But it gives you a framework to automatically start being creative with motif generation.

You could do that with any number of notes to get motifs going: 2, 3, 4, 5.

[KingKong]

Sorry Jimmy, it's a bit of an ambiguous post to read, but I know you're a smart guy so there must be something to it. Also I know myself how hard it can be to get an insight and then find it difficult to communicate.

Reading between the lines what you write kind of reminds me of 'the cellular approach', a book which lays out formulae for line building by mixing scale tones and arpeggios.

Now.... This is where you get someone come in and say, 'what , jazz lines can be made of scale tones and arpeggios, no shit Einstein!'.

I'm interested to hear more if u can communicate it, maybe with some examples.... Although my own attempts to communicate 'The Kong Approach' have failed miserably on this forum on numerous occasions!

[wolflen]

Word association football: you say 'intervals', and I think 'Boulez'. And so did someone else:

Pierre Boulez guitar techniques for improvisation and composition

Raw.

thanks for the link..cool stuff...add some spice to your chord work and harmonic insight as well

[KingKong]

Man just let it go, we don’t need another 15 page theory vs ear circle jerk.

Nah this is a different kettle of fish, keep it going, could get interesting.

Scales, intervals, arps, chromatics. Plenty of scope for methodical line building using those....

E.g. ' chromatic slide to the 3rd of the arpeggio, then a fifth up from the 3rd resolve to the 5th of the arpeggio'...

( I've no idea what that would sound like btw, just made it up)

[Bobby Timmons]

^ Yes exactly. A methodical way to practice and visualize melody. If you add intervals and chromatics to the age old custom of getting scales and arps under your fingers, it gets you the majority of the way there to playing authentic jazz solo melodies because that is by definition every possible melody shape. What you are practicing is actual melody. While only practicing scales or arps is not legitimate music or melody.

[ChazFromCali]

OK. I get it.

But, seems like the long way around the barn rather than just saying 'learn the melody.'

By that I mean (as I've said before) internalize the melody so much so that I'm might discover myself absent-mindedly humming it as I'm driving. So much so that I know what melody note the tune starts with, what melody note(s) goes with each word in the lyrics by each bar and by each A, A' or B section, etc........ so much so that I'm fk'n sick of it.

Then I know the tune.

The chords are in my opinion secondary (an outrageous thing to say?), they may be very famous and everybody plays it like (____name player____) But songs can be re-harmonized any old way. And are.

If I know the melody, I KNOW the tune.
I've only got four tunes like that in my head. But I KNOW those mofo's.

Over the years I arrived at this outlook from reading a lot of comments of various players and seeing things on my own - and it seems to me to be (to use a math analogy) the L.C.D. of a fraction. Using whole numbers.... 1/2 would be the lowest you can break it down to...... rather than say 4/8th's or 8/16th's. The L.C.D. would be: Learn the melody. Really know it.

When I've done that, I have virtually no issue coming up with variations on the melody, i.e. "improvising."

But, yeah, I get the approach you're talking about. Kinda seems a bit microscope-y and looking for quarks and neutrons to me, but then maybe no more so than what I do? Just a slightly different way of doing it? I guess it comes down to finding something that works for you. I found my thing, put the melody through a meat-grinder, lol. And know it cold.

[Bobby Timmons]

Well it should be combined with playing off the melody and using your ear. All good jazz musicians can and do play off the chords though.

Yes it is microscope-y looking for quarks and neutrons. Why would you want to be ignorant of how something works if you want to succeed at it?

[ChazFromCali]

....

Yes it is microscope-y looking for quarks and neutrons. Why would you want to be ignorant of how something works if you want to succeed at it?

I agree....... I have a metric *hit-ton of Coker books.
With me a little of that goes a long way.

[KingKong]

^ Yes exactly. If you add intervals and chromatics to the age old custom of getting scales and arps under your fingers, it gets you the majority of the way there to playing authentic jazz solo melodies because that is by definition every possible melody shape. What you are practicing is actual melody. While only practicing scales or arps is not legitimate music or melody.

I suggest grabbing a copy of the cellar approach, it's exactly that. A veritable encyclopedia of building melodies / jazz lines using what you might call 'algorithms'. It's all in notation also so good for a keys man. ( This has severely hindered my work with it btw, why no tab???!)

The downside was that I found it lacked context. E.g. the first chapter, by the end u can nail soloing over cycles of fourths.Great, but then without knowing of a tune you can apply that to, you've actually not really achieved anything.

Nevertheless I recommend you check it out, as it is exactly what I think you are getting at.

So the put down for this is 'music mannnnn, it's not about algorithms, you gotta play what you feel etc'.
Yes that is what music is about, but if you are presented with a set of algorithms to create licks and mini melodies, try them out. Compose some, keep what you like, ditch what you don't. You've written some nice stuff that is yours to keep, who cares if there is an algorithm behind it?

[Bobby Timmons]

I will check it out. Yes that's true. The other thing is that you have to have crap under your fingers or you won't be capable of playing what you feel in time with rhythm.

[grahambop]

^ Fantastic demonstration on motif creation. That obviously has to be expanded and include longer lines. But it gives you a framework to automatically start being creative with motif generation.

You could do that with any number of notes to get motifs going: 2, 3, 4, 5.

Yes the trailer is just a snippet, Jerry Bergonzi has a lot of other cool ideas too. I have the DVD and it’s very good, his ideas are really quite simple but can be developed into all sorts of possibilities. Later on he goes on to various ways of extending and varying the motifs etc.

I saw him at a gig here in the UK a while back. I told him I had the DVD and I really liked the way he gets so much mileage out of these simple ideas, he said ‘well I’m a simple kind of guy!’

[pauln]

If I know the melody, I KNOW the tune.
.

One Note Samba?

[Bobby Timmons]

What do you mean?

I'm actually interested in entertaining it; please give it another try with the idea of conveying it so that how it works might be understood.

Op thesis fixed.

I've discovered a methodical and accurate way to practice and visualize melody shape for solos.

[John A.]

Op thesis fixed.

Can you provide an example? Doesn't have to be notated or played; even just a bit of narrative description of what you're actually doing would add some clarity. Otherwise, it just seems like just you're saying melodies are built with bits of scales, arpeggios, intervallic leaps, and chromaticism. I mean, duh, this is not new or informative. What specifically are you doing? How is it different from something else you were doing (or that you think other people do)? If you indeed have come up with something useful, it would be nice to try and use it.

I'm no longer disappointed with theory, but still think that theory needs to learn that actions have consequences, so I'm grounding it for a week and am limiting its screen time.

[Bobby Timmons]

Haha. Did you read the thread? It's for practicing purposes and getting material under your fingers. So your theory framework isn't divorced from your making authentic music mindset. First practice the topics individually, then simply practice combining them using rhythmic vocab and phrasing. Theory has now been turned into actual music. I'll try to make a video.

[John A.]

Haha. Did you read the thread? It's for practicing purposes and getting material under your fingers. So your theory framework isn't divorced from your making authentic music mindset. First practice the topics individually, then simply practice combining them using rhythmic vocab and phrasing. Theory has now been turned into actual music. I'll try to make a video.

Of course I read it (several times through). I still don’t know what you’re talking about. Examples help.

I actually explore and apply harmony topics all the time, so I’m not coming at these sorts of discussions from a perspective of not wanting to learn more. To me, harmony/pitch-collections is inseparable from jazz musicianship. I come from the perspective of “what is this person talking about and can he provide an example that concretizes his abstractions?”

[Litterick]

So, we practise scales, arpeggios, intervallic leaps, and chromaticism; then we put them all together with some rhythmic vocabulary and some phrasing and voila, we have music!

It's so easy.

[pauln]

Theory has now been turned into actual music. I'll try to make a video.

Thanks JS, that might calm those of us eager to share in your discovery.

[Bobby Timmons]

Of course I read it (several times through). I still don’t know what you’re talking about. Examples help.

I actually explore and apply harmony topics all the time, so I’m not coming at these sorts of discussions from a perspective of not wanting to learn more. To me, harmony/pitch-collections is inseparable from jazz musicianship. I come from the perspective of “what is this person talking about and can he provide an example that concretizes his abstractions?”

I don't know what you're talking about not knowing what I'm talking about.

- Actual good solos from the greats and pros use bits of scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics combined creatively.
- So practice that.
- Instead of having a mindset that theory practice isn't musical. It is if you structure it this way.
- This way your methodical practicing becomes actual music.

[Bobby Timmons]

So, we practise scales, arpeggios, intervallic leaps, and chromaticism; then we put them all together with some rhythmic vocabulary and some phrasing and voila, we have music!

It's so easy.

What is the purpose of your comment? I didn't say it was easy, everyone knows jazz is hard. The process can be clarified though. Please don't participate if you're going to be destructive.

[Tal_175]

I think what people are struggling with is your suggestion is essentially the same thing as saying "There are only 12 notes in music, just work on creatively putting them together.". This amounts to the same thing because any random phrase can be seen as consisting of a series of chromatics, scales, arpeggios and intervals. It doesn't narrow down the possibilities much.

[Bobby Timmons]

Practice the topics individually. Then create exercises combining 2 or more of the topics. Say chromatic leading tone into ascending arp lick then descend with scale. Or intervallic leap into descending scale into chromatic lick into chord tones. Etc.

[Tal_175]

Practice the topics individually. Then create exercises combining 2 or more of the topics. Say chromatic leading tone into ascending arp lick then descend with scale. Or intervallic leap into descending scale into chromatic lick into chord tones. Etc.

Yes, that's basically how Barry Harris line building concepts work. Barry Harris calls them the ABC's (scales with/out half-notes, arpeggios with/out leading notes, intervals with/out leading notes, ascending, descending, pivoting etc.). Then you work on applying these to tunes.

[KingKong]

Yes, that's basically how Barry Harris line building concepts work. Barry Harris calls them the ABC's (scales with/out half-notes, arpeggios with/out leading notes, intervals with/out leading notes, ascending, descending, pivoting etc.). Then you work on applying these to tunes.

If someone has an insight that others have had before then it validates that insight, Jimmy, I'd take comments such as ^^ as a good thing.

[Tal_175]

If someone has an insight that others have had before then it validates that insight, Jimmy, I'd take comments such as ^^ as a good thing.

Well, for the most part, no. Barry Harris's insight was more informed by analysing the vocabulary of the original bebop gang. There are specific ideas that he extracted from the vocabulary and devised a way to teach students how to create lines with them. The concepts aren't generic like described by Jimmy which is what makes them very useful. Also application of the concepts are always in the context of harmony and resolution patterns.