Did Jazz kill bossa nova?

[Reg]

LOL back in early 70's when I gigged with Brazilian musicians... they all wanted to play funk and jazz.

[Patlotch]

LOL back in early 70's when I gigged with Brazilian musicians... they all wanted to play funk and jazz.

well of course, there was probably more money to be made...

in Paris in recent years, Cuban and Puerto Rican percussionists have been breaking salaries in gigs and concerts. I have excellent friends Colombian percussionist who have lost their place in orchestras for this reason

[Alter]

I remember visiting Brazil a few years back, it was really difficult to find places to hear Bossa Nova music. All my Brazilian musicians friends more or less said the same thing, that bossa nova in Brazil is not popular, and it is the music of the elderly. And that most internationally known names mainly tour abroad basically. For youth, it was Rock, Pop, Hip hop etc..

[joelf]

And, here's Los Maestros with the sound that brought Bossa to America. Good playing . . . Marinero

Wonderful record: The Best of Two Worlds. I used to have it. Stan's solo on Agua de Marca is genius cubed. He just anchors with one low note and descends one note at a time with a 2nd higher note, until he ends with a unison. The essence of simplicity, logic, and beauty!

[m_d]

I remember visiting Brazil a few years back, it was really difficult to find places to hear Bossa Nova music. All my Brazilian musicians friends more or less said the same thing, that bossa nova in Brazil is not popular, and it is the music of the elderly. And that most internationally known names mainly tour abroad basically. For youth, it was Rock, Pop, Hip hop etc..

That's what I was told too, but it's probably a complex reality, as when we went once to a café in Rio in the evening where a guitar/singer duo were playing bossa, everyone in the room knew the songs by heart, the music seemed very much alive. And the "samba schools" seemed to be doing fine with many youngsters still learning the "craft". Same when I went to see Caetano at Carnegie Hall a couple of times. He played a mix of pop and bossa (and a couple of standards with just him on acoustic; Stars fell on Alabama and Get Out of Town as I remember - just beautiful). What a fabulous artist. Here again the Brazilians in the room knew all the songs, some even wouldn't stop singing the whole show, it got almost annoying.

[Zina]

Moreover, Gilberto was very jealous of his guitar chords, which he tended to hide. I don't know how he adapted Jobim's piano...

There is or was a french edition bossa/samba guitar book with the chords to several great songs, including Gilberto's. I didn't have the money, but from quick leafing through I saw that the chords to Uma Nota So and Dindi for example were exactly as I'd heard them listening at 21rpm on a modified (massacred) recordplayer. It had a predominantly green cover, and contained those I mentioned, plus Desafinado, Vou Te Contar, Insensatez, and I think The Sea Is My Soul.

[Fz2016]

Cst?

[Fz2016]

What was the cnt movement?

[Marinero]

" Here again the Brazilians in the room knew all the songs, some even wouldn't stop singing the whole show, it got almost annoying." m_d


Hi, m_d,
Sometimes we need to remember that music began with early man singing around campfires, while on the hunt or working a planted patch in a seasonal camp. It expressed their feelings of love, sorrow, loss, happiness and remembrance of times past in a simple but profound way. How wonderful, for me, to have moved an audience in such a way. Perhaps, one day I will be so fortunate. Good playing . . . Marinero

[joelf]

That's what I was told too, but it's probably a complex reality, as when we went once to a café in Rio in the evening where a guitar/singer duo were playing bossa, everyone in the room knew the songs by heart, the music seemed very much alive. And the "samba schools" seemed to be doing fine with many youngsters still learning the "craft". Same when I went to see Caetano at Carnegie Hall a couple of times. He played a mix of pop and bossa (and a couple of standards with just him on acoustic; Stars fell on Alabama and Get Out of Town as I remember - just beautiful). What a fabulous artist. Here again the Brazilians in the room knew all the songs, some even wouldn't stop singing the whole show, it got almost annoying.

This brilliant drummer from Rio I used to play with---an encyclopedia not only of that country's music, but rhythm---particularly Caribbean and it's antecedent, African---generally used to be very drug when I wanted to play Jobim or any Brasilian standards. Guess it was coming out of his ears having to do it for so long. Another excellent drummer I knew only online is American but lives in Recife. He couldn't stop talking about Chico Science.

They have their reasons---and I also suspect among the poor it's partly resentment of the middle and upper classes. Bossa was hated bourgeois music of the idle rich to them. Hate people and you hate everything about them. Sad, but that's the way a lot of people are. They can't see past their pain...

[Patlotch]

this was one of my first records, in 1967. You can enjoy on some tunes Kenny Burrel on nylon acoustic guitar, and the majestic sound of the Bean, very different from Getz, Tommy Flanagan's delicate piano, and a very discreet rhythm section (Major Holley - bass, Eddie Locke - drums, Ray Barretto - congas), swinging even if it is not very "brezilian""

All Music Review

This session is valuable for the majestic playing of tenor great Coleman Hawkins, who performs on half of the eight tracks. Released on the Prestige subsidiary Moodsville -- a label that specialized in recordings with an intimate, reflective atmosphere -- the Moodsville sound doesn't sit comfortably on Hawkins. His playing is brilliantly relaxed, but it's not mood music. Leader Kenny Burrell's playing is much more in line with the Moodsville groove. The guitarist is not amplified as much as he is on his Prestige dates from this time. In fact, he performs on a nylon-string instrument almost as much as he does on his hollow-body electric. Unlike Hawkins, Burrell's subdued contribution is made to measure for this date. Listeners expecting to hear Burrell the hard bopper won't. The key moments come during the interaction between the guitarist and tenor player, especially during their exchanges on Burrell's "Montono Blues." The rhythm section, Hawkins' working band from this period (pianist Tommy Flanagan, bassist Major Holley, and drummer Eddie Locke) provides impeccable, sublime support.

[christianm77]

My experience is Brazilians here in London, like to hear it played, they know all the songs, maybe like I know the Beatles and my mum knows show songs....like a romantic version of home I guess.... homesickness is a powerful emotion.

that and Chorinhos...

[rpjazzguitar]

I've avoided this thread up until now because of fundamental problems with the title.

I have to be able to define jazz, define bossa nova and define "kill". I guess I'm okay with "did".

According to the first generation of artists associated with bossa nova, American jazz influenced them, particularly chord voicings. They talk about having passed around an album Barney Kessel did with Julie London and lifted voicings from that.

One well known Rio musician says that Bossa Nova was an era, not a musical style. He says the style is samba. Or, a samba variant, among many samba variants.

If you ask an American to play a bossa nova beat, the American can do it and it will sound familiar. But, if you ask a Brazilian, the answer you may get is a laugh and "there is no bossa nova beat; every song is different".

Bossa Nova is no more dead than bop or swing. Joyce remains a vibrant artist (Christian, thanks for posting that terrific clip of Feminina). Rosa Passos is another. Google lists many others, of different ages. American jazz players play bossas as part of standards gigs all the time. etc etc.

Bossa was a craze about 60 years ago. Of course things have moved forward. But, like swing and bop, it continues to be influential and continues to be played.

[Patlotch]

One well known Rio musician says that Bossa Nova was an era, not a musical style. He says the style is samba. Or, a samba variant, among many samba variants.
[...]
If you ask an American to play a bossa nova beat, the American can do it and it will sound familiar. But, if you ask a Brazilian, the answer you may get is a laugh and "there is no bossa nova beat; every song is different".

that's exactly what we hear with João Gilberto. Maybe jazz has "a little" (understatement) limited this rhythmic variety, but it couldn't kill the origins

in a way, rock more killed jazz than jazz killed bossa-nova

[Zina]

...Bossa Nova was an era, not a musical style. He says the style is samba.

Yes, samba. Literal translation makes little sense; colloquial 'bossa' can be used for 'craic', 'hobbyhorse', 'knack', or 'drive/impetus' for something you love to do. As in that song, you know? "Blame It On The Impetus To Engage In An Enjoyable Activity", that one. Catchy.

in a way, rock more killed jazz than jazz killed bossa-nova

Then that's the one to call to have rap & pop's feet put in a tub of cement.

[cosmic gumbo]