Did Jazz kill bossa nova?

[ragman1]

So presumably jazz didn't kill Chopin...

[christianm77]

Blame it on Getz? Let the man rest in peace.

No I wasn’t thinking of Getz. His solos tended to be paraphrases of the melody.

The problem is when you run the changes isn’t it? Which is tempting because the changes are mega.

[christianm77]

I like the characterisation of Chopin as quite evil. Do you have a specific example? I suppose the revolution study?

[christianm77]

Uhh, NO, I don't agree. At all. Boss's Nova (translates to English as NEW BEAT) is typically not the most harmonically complex of jazz sub-genres, but neither is it "simpler" or less complex, on average. Compared to Parker tunes [e.g., Confirmation, Ornithology,...) which typically involve cleverly modulated ii-V-I sequences, or even Coltrane tunes (e.g., Giant Steps, which repeats a tricky but learnable 4 chord sequence that moves key centers up a major 3rd), I'd assert that Boss's Nova songs are right down the middle of the plate in the jazz idiom, otherwise, they would not have become standards.

Jazz students struggle to memorize and make musical sense of Desifinato, which has much more irregular modulation and odd changes than most bop tunes. O Barquino (My Little Boat), a simpler Bossa offering, is no less complex than a 1930's blowing standard. Compare it to Things Ain't What They Used to Be or Don't Be That Way. Jazz players LOVE The Girl From Ipanema because of it's jazzy key movement in minor thirds. How Insensitive makes very elegant use in its second bar of a diminished chord as a dominant 7th with a flat 9th in the bass, and don't think that jazz students don't stumble when trying to figure out what to play on THAT one. One needs at least a middling knowledge of classical harmony to figure it out based upon the chord that follows.

To me, the thing that separates the great Bossa standards as a group or sub-genre from other post WWII jazz tunes is the incredibly elegant use of western harmony in support of the song. And this results in tunes that 1) are satisfying for non-musicians, and 2) provide plenty of clever contour for jazz players to dig in and make music. If a song form is a road, then bossa standards are English B roads for sports car enthusiasts, while many bop standards (not all, don't get your knickers in a bundle) are more akin to a NASCAR track designed to feature a player just blowing in a simple format.

I am sure that there is a pile of Bossa throw-aways out there, unexceptional and formulaic, just as there is a mountain of jazz chaff (see An Oscar for Treadwell by Parker) that players resurrect from time to time for the novelty their obscurity. But the Bossa standards that we know and love are gems that last and will be played well into the future because they are brilliant tunes. Jobim & Bonfa take their places alongside the Billy Strayhorns of the world as creators of brilliant original music.

Yeah.

Django’s tune Tears for instance:

(Billy Strayhorn is a good example too. Although I think his tunes are just hard to improvise on.)

For example: I had to do a lot of research and thinking to learn how to play dim chords elegantly. By which I mean seeing them as connected to the tonality and not just running Coltrane style patterns on them.

I assumed this was down to me not being formally educated in jazz, but having spoken to those with actual jazz degrees, it turns out you can graduate from elite institutions with a very rudimentary knowledge of functional harmony. They can all play great, but they often have weird weak spots in their changes playing. The repertoire they are taught at college minimises those harmonic situations. But as you say - Bossa always stands out - and they have to learn it because people know those songs....

It’s impossible to play melodically on dim chords if you don’t understand how they are related to the central tonality. And as Bossa invites the older melodic tradition of jazz improvisation on the melody rather than the sophisticated changes running of the 50s boppers, so that sort of passage work always feels inappropriate to me.

It’s easy to see why dim harmony isn’t taught. Mostly dim chords went out of fashion in US jazz in the 50s I guess.

Brad Mehldau points out learning bop became about transplanting units of canned Parker material on ii Vs. Even for some of the greats of the 50s and 60s!

OTOH - there’s a much simpler solution that is even more alien to the jazz academies - you could simply not think about the harmony and rely on you ears to avoid clams playing diatonically through the song. The way the trad guys did it.... I actually think this is how Getz often soloed although he could clearly run changes too.


If I hadn’t needed to work out what the hell to do dim chords and other types of non Ii V motion you see in prewar jazz, it’s likely I would never have bothered.

I feel mention should also be made of Nazareth, Pixinguinha and so on. Often very classical tinged harmony in that music.

The first Bossa tune, Chega, was based on a Choro style form. Jacob do Bandolim played it as a choro. No blowing in the jazz sense.

[dot75]

I actually think this is how Getz often soloed although he could clearly run changes too.

Gary Burton's first job was a couple of years on the road with Getz in the early 60's. He says in numerous places that Getz had limited theoretical knowledge and waited to hear what the band did behind him & then play by ear. For Burton CST is the answer....

[dot75]

And Gene Bertoncini:

BTW, the source album is "Someone To Light up My Life" which is a wonderful, superb recording of Gene at the top of his game and two simpatico percussionists. It is a masterpiece IMHO.

Thanks for the Bertoncini, hadn't heard that.

More Bossa Chopin.. Jim Hall's on the Mulligan version.

[christianm77]

Gary Burton's first job was a couple of years on the road with Getz in the early 60's. He says in numerous places that Getz had limited theoretical knowledge and waited to hear what the band did behind him & then play by ear. For Burton CST is the answer....

Actually that really doesn’t surprise me from the bits of Getz I’ve transcribed.

Burton just got tired of of playing standards. I’d be interested to know how much of the CsT movement came out of that.

[Robertkoa]

Gary Burton's first job was a couple of years on the road with Getz in the early 60's. He says in numerous places that Getz had limited theoretical knowledge and waited to hear what the band did behind him & then play by ear. For Burton CST is the answer....

Burton has a very interesting overview of the Jazz Repertoire ..and Jazz & Music in general in this interview:

[bossa]

Yeah.

It’s impossible to play melodically on dim chords if you don’t understand how they are related to the central tonality. And as Bossa invites the older melodic tradition of jazz improvisation on the melody rather than the sophisticated changes running of the 50s boppers, so that sort of passage work always feels inappropriate to me.

It’s easy to see why dim harmony isn’t taught. Mostly dim chords went out of fashion in US jazz in the 50s I guess.

Hi Cristian, using the Barry Harris method would be a good way to think, reharm and play melodically, specially over dim7 chords?

Changing the subject a little bit...

[wintermoon]

Bossa is about the songs. Maybe too much improvisation?

If you listen to bossa the way they played it in Brazil, you're hearing the real thing.
I can't remember who said it, maybe Emily Remler? that Americans don't play it correctly, too much syncopation etc.
For example authentic bass lines in bossa are typically just a simple 2 feel, not all the added rhythms you're apt to hear in American interpretations.

[cosmic gumbo]

[christianm77]

If you listen to bossa the way they played it in Brazil, you're hearing the real thing.
I can't remember who said it, maybe Emily Remler? that Americans don't play it correctly, too much syncopation etc.
For example authentic bass lines in bossa are typically just a simple 2 feel, not all the added rhythms you're apt to hear in American interpretations.

Why would you listen to Americans doing it?

[Jonah]

Why would you listen to Americans doing it?

because when Americans do something you should listen!

[geogio]

"I think of Bossa Nova as the final stage of Jazz as popular music"

Huh?

I was always under the impression that if there is a category in billboard magazine it is still considered popular music... it's just not on syndicated radio offerings that play the latest corporate smash hits to pre pubescent teenage girls and highly infatuated teenage groovy boys.

I seem to recall that smooth jazz had a pretty big footprint way after Bossa Nova.

[Djang]

Bossa Nova had some great harmony going on. Especially the sophisticated use of diminished, augmented (symmetric harmony) and Melodic Minor.

some jazz musicians substitute the Jobim harmony with II-V-progressions and changing diminished into altered dominant or 7b9b13. Interesting, but at the same time limiting.

Bossa is certainly not harmonically simple, au contraire.

Modern jazz is much more open to diminished harmony and symmetric harmony.

But did jazz kill Bossa Nova? Isn’t it the commercial Juggernaut of diluted and badly played Bossa that finished it, like it did with most art...?!

[christianm77]

some jazz musicians substitute the Jobim harmony with II-V-progressions and changing diminished into altered dominant or 7b9b13. Interesting, but at the same time limiting.

I would say, not interesting, and bad sounding :-)

The Aebersold charts for Bossa tunes are an abomination.

Jazz musicians forgot how to solo on anything that isn't a II-V-I. Getz did it all by ear.

[jameslovestal]

I would say, not interesting, and bad sounding :-)

The Aebersold charts for Bossa tunes are an abomination.

Jazz musicians forgot how to solo on anything that isn't a II-V-I. Getz did it all by ear.

Oh no; most of the bossa tunes I play (Wave, Corcovado etc...), come from Aebersold charts found in volume 31 - Bossa Nova.

Guess I should find other charts and see what chords are used instead.

[christianm77]

Oh no; most of the bossa tunes I play (Wave, Corcovado etc...), come from Aebersold charts found in volume 31 - Bossa Nova.

Guess I should find other charts and see what chords are used instead.

Getting good charts is not always the easiest, but the Almir Chediak books have really nice changes and voicings. Not the easiest to get hold of though and also in Portuguese.

[Jonah]

Oh no; most of the bossa tunes I play (Wave, Corcovado etc...), come from Aebersold charts found in volume 31 - Bossa Nova.

Guess I should find other charts and see what chords are used instead.

Authentic Brazialian bossa is better learned by ear or when copied from a player... Brazilian guitar (especially 7 string) is pretty different beast both from traditional classical and northern American guitars...

I think it was mixed very much with classical guitar but it is not the same thing.

I am not that much inot it but I had a period of strong interest... when you begin to look at more from inside... or more from Brazilian music and guitarism perspective you begin to notice different things than we are used to notice in our pop and jazz bossa context...

In a word - though bossa was professional genre original - it comes directly from folk source and folk music is often unpredictably spontaneous and better learnt directly from the source

[Vladan]

To original question ... No. Actually, IMO, it is Bossa (among other things) that have killed/ is killing Jazz (especially live club scene).

[Robertkoa]

You may notice more Groove.
This guy is a Guitar Savant I think.
One think I dislike about many Classical Guitar Pieces is they don't usually play full extended chords...Yamandu solves this and has some cool grooves too.
A lot of Nylon Stringers sound more 'labored ' where he bounces along and grooves- an unusual Virtuoso - to my ears anyway.



Jazz killed Heavy Metal , then the Heavy Metal guys hired Brazilians to kill Jazz ....lol.

OR - people should ideally be able to Dance to the Music and still be able to clap for the Soloist , if they really want to .

Maybe Jazz just faded somewhat as it became more of a 'Musician's Music' than Dance Grooves.

[PMB]

While the influence of Brazilian folk music upon bossa nova, especially in terms of rhythm, is clear I remember reading an interview where Jobim stated that at least harmonically speaking, his own music was primarily influenced by the classical tradition from Bach, Chopin, Debussy and Ravel to Villa-Lobos. So while he was no Jerome Kern (who considered jazz reinterpretations of his songs as "fraudulent imitations"), he probably felt protective of his compositions and was perhaps concerned that jazz musicians had a tendency to strip them of their musical and geographical essence.

[JCat]

In Argentine in the 50s there was a strong opinion that Astor Piazzolla killed the Tango. The great composer and founder of Tango nuevo said; "The dancers are my worst enemies". He wrote concert music not dance music. Piazzolla was a brilliant instrumentalist, not a singer.

Tango Nuevo is a mix of influences; Classical music, Jazz, Latin and European folk music. World music. In the 70s he plays with jazz authorities like Quincy Jones and Gerry Mulligan. In the 80s Grace Jones turned Piazzolla's composition Libertango into dance music and it became a world hit. At this time the dancers became Piazzollas best friends.

Jazz didn't kill the Tango and neither did Piazzolla. On the contrary, Piazzolla made the Argentine Tango and the Bandoneon immortal with good help from Jazz and classical music. There is a strong parallel to the development of the Bossa Nova. One is Samba the other is Tango, but the melting pot and the ingredients are not that different. It all happened in South America in the 50s when local music was blended with traditional European music, North American music, exceptional musical skills and a spoonful of passion.

Dizzy Gillespie is speaking through this lady's horn:

Guitaristic approach. Incredible performance

[christianm77]

In Argentine in the 50s there was a strong opinion that Astor Piazzolla killed the Tango. The great composer and founder of Tango nuevo said; "The dancers are my worst enemies". He wrote concert music not dance music. Piazzolla was a brilliant instrumentalist, not a singer.

Tango Nuevo is a mix of influences; Classical music, Jazz, Latin and European folk music. World music. In the 70s he plays with jazz authorities like Quincy Jones and Gerry Mulligan. In the 80s Grace Jones turned Piazzolla's composition Libertango into dance music and it became a world hit. At this time the dancers became Piazzollas best friends.

Jazz didn't kill the Tango and neither did Piazzolla. On the contrary, Piazzolla made the Argentine Tango and the Bandoneon immortal with good help from Jazz and classical music. There is a strong parallel to the development of the Bossa Nova. One is Samba the other is Tango, but the melting pot and the ingredients are not that different. It all happened in South America in the 50s when local music was blended with traditional European music, North American music, exceptional musical skills and a spoonful of passion.

Dizzy Gillespie is speaking through this lady's horn:

Guitaristic approach. Incredible performance

Ha funny.... just listening to Piazolla guitar music in the car.....

Here’s my bands take on Libertango

[JCat]

Ha funny.... just listening to Piazolla guitar music in the car.....

Just a glitch in the Matrix, Neo

Here’s my bands take on Libertango

Very nice performance!