Did Jazz kill bossa nova?

[christianm77]

Yes, the dancers said the same thing about bebop* needless to say... in a sense they were right... jazz like tango nuevo and Bossa nova became an art music. (Desifinado’s Portuguese lyric is a response to how people said Jobim destroyed the samba with his ‘wrong notes’)

Just like Bach...

(Although I have heard stories of enthusiastic English eccentrics dancing the sarabande at Bach cello recitals. Not sure how I’d deal with that haha. I like people dancing at my gigs though.)

* I’m aware many boppers would contest this including Barry, but there’s no doubt jazz declined as a social dance music after the war.

[2bornot2bop]

Bossa Nova lives!

[christianm77]

Indeed it does

[christianm77]

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

Last week I replied in wrong thread. Why on Earth two similar threads with similar titles and similar content? Now I post my one week old reply here instead:

”No styles of music are dead. They need each other to survive. Bossa nova is samba music dressed in jazz clothes. Without jazz music, bossa nova would’ve been just samba music. Like someone other said, there’s no danger of mixing apples and oranges. It’s still music, right?”

[Marinero]

In Argentine in the 50s there was a strong opinion that Astor Piazzolla killed the Tango. The great composer and founder of Tango nuevo said; "The dancers are my worst enemies". He wrote concert music not dance music. Piazzolla was a brilliant instrumentalist, not a singer.

Tango Nuevo is a mix of influences; Classical music, Jazz, Latin and European folk music. World music. In the 70s he plays with jazz authorities like Quincy Jones and Gerry Mulligan. In the 80s Grace Jones turned Piazzolla's composition Libertango into dance music and it became a world hit. At this time the dancers became Piazzollas best friends.

Jazz didn't kill the Tango and neither did Piazzolla. On the contrary, Piazzolla made the Argentine Tango and the Bandoneon immortal with good help from Jazz and classical music. There is a strong parallel to the development of the Bossa Nova. One is Samba the other is Tango, but the melting pot and the ingredients are not that different. It all happened in South America in the 50s when local music was blended with traditional European music, North American music, exceptional musical skills and a spoonful of passion.

Dizzy Gillespie is speaking through this lady's horn:

Guitaristic approach. Incredible performance

Hi, J,
I don't think Dizzy would agree, nor would I, with your assessment of the trumpet players chops in the first video in comparison to his playing. Her playing was cold, lifeless and academic, in my opinion. However, Stephanie's guitar playing, in the second video, is first-rate. She plays with great style, feeling and execution. What's the deal with the all-girl orchestra in the first video? Who are they? Good playing . . . Marinero

[JCat]

Hi, J,
I don't think Dizzy would agree, nor would I, with your assessment of the trumpet players chops in the first video in comparison to his playing. Her playing was cold, lifeless and academic, in my opinion. However, Stephanie's guitar playing, in the second video, is first-rate. She plays with great style, feeling and execution. What's the deal with the all-girl orchestra in the first video? Who are they? Good playing . . . Marinero

Tine Tingh Helseth is a classical musician, "one of the foremost trumpet soloists of our time", she's got chops all right. I don't think she is used to be compared with a Jazz trumpet player and I don't know if she would appreciate it. I hope she wouldn't mind, because she is described as "an artist who challenges the boundaries of genre". Tine has worked with many world leading orchestras, (this particular concert was celebrating womens right to vote, which would explain the unbalanced gender representation).

My purpose was to highlight the fusion between classical music and jazz, here represented by the composer Astor Piazzolla, and the sound when interpreted on lead trumpet.

"Jazz" means a whole lot of different things to different people. We often like to associate it with improvisation, but there are many genres that contain improvisation that neither qualify, nor claim to be jazz. And I bet there's jazz without improvisation. Parts of a solo, or even the entire solo, could be written and rehearsed (i.e not improvised). Most of the time the audience couldn't tell. -When does it matter and to whom? I guess that Tine's solo is written and rehearsed, that would be the common classical approach. The solo is performed with precision, yet soulful and lyrical.

I'm influenced by Dizzy's compositions, the sound of the music he wrote. He didn't bop with a silencer all the time. Con Alma was written 1954, incorporating Latin rhythm in jazz a few years ahead of the Bossa Nova craze:

[christianm77]

Tine Tingh Helseth is a classical musician, "one of the foremost trumpet soloists of our time", she's got chops all right. I don't think she is used to be compared with a Jazz trumpet player and I don't know if she would appreciate it. I hope she wouldn't mind, because she is described as "an artist who challenges the boundaries of genre". Tine has worked with many world leading orchestras, (this particular concert was celebrating womens right to vote, which would explain the unbalanced gender representation).

My purpose was to highlight the fusion between classical music and jazz, here represented by the composer Astor Piazzolla, and the sound when interpreted on lead trumpet.

"Jazz" means a whole lot of different things to different people. We often like to associate it with improvisation, but there are many genres that contain improvisation that neither qualify, nor claim to be jazz. And I bet there's jazz without improvisation. Parts of a solo, or even the entire solo, could be written and rehearsed (i.e not improvised). Most of the time the audience couldn't tell. -When does it matter and to whom? I guess that Tine's solo is written and rehearsed, that would be the common classical approach. The solo is performed with precision, yet soulful and lyrical.

I'm influenced by Dizzy's compositions, the sound of the music he wrote. He didn't bop with a silencer all the time. Con Alma was written 1954, incorporating Latin rhythm in jazz a few years ahead of the Bossa Nova craze:

Yeah Piazzolla isn’t jazz... or at least isn’t exactly jazz. Part of the interesting penumbra of musics that intersect with jazz but aren’t quite in the category.

Jazz musicians played with him, like Barney Kessell, but his music has one foot in the concert hall. A classical take on it is appropriate. He wrote scores.

Bit of course Piazzolla was also a tango musician through and through....

[JCat]

Yeah Piazzolla isn’t jazz... or at least isn’t exactly jazz. Part of the interesting penumbra of musics that intersect with jazz but aren’t quite in the category.

Jazz musicians played with him, like Barney Kessell, but his music has one foot in the concert hall. A classical take on it is appropriate. He wrote scores.

Bit of course Piazzolla was also a tango musician through and through....

Yes, Piazzolla did tango gigs for a living throughout his career. (His performing career took off in NYC, where he was playing in different restaurant orchestras). He was a performing artist for many years before he went to France to study classical composition. It took a long time before he became accepted in the concert halls, for him it was a dream come true.

Piazzolla erases the boundaries between "jazz" and classical music. I love it. And it reminds me of the great Broadway composers who were educated in classical music and wrote the evergreens that later became Jazz standards. It makes me wonder about the differences, if there are any differences and if so, what these may be....drums and base? vocals/lyrics? instrument settings? solos/impros? venue? freedom? or just the scores? (Big band Jazz is documented in scores too)... After all, "Jazz" may just be a marketing/target segment pop concept.

I also realize that Libertango has become a "new" standard even though It was written recently, just 45 years ago

[christianm77]

Yeah I mean ultimately there’s just music, right?

But I never feel comfortable describing various Latin American African diaspora musics as jazz, and certainly not tango, Nuevo or otherwise. Tango predates jazz for one thing...

there is certainly a jazz influence in Piazolla (night in Tunisia in the bridge of Libertango anyone?) but it is a jazz influence brought into tango, just as jazz musicians might bring a tango influence into American jazz.

And would US jazz musicians get the feel of Piazolla’s music right away? No... they need training and even then it will never be like a musician born in Argentina.

from interviews it seems Piazolla was always balancing the limitations but authentic feel of tango musicians against the virtuosity but lack of tango feel of classical and jazz players. The former could get the feel and understood the ornaments and effects, but couldn’t deal with the complexity; the latter vice versa.

I’d feel equally uncomfortable describing Choro or samba as jazz... or ragtime for that matter. Or show music of the early 20th century....

Bossa obviously again has that jazz influence, and overlaps.. but I don’t feel it is jazz itself.

[JCat]

Yeah I mean ultimately there’s just music, right?

But I never feel comfortable describing various Latin American African diaspora musics as jazz, and certainly not tango, Nuevo or otherwise. Tango predates jazz for one thing...

there is certainly a jazz influence in Piazolla (night in Tunisia in the bridge of Libertango anyone?) but it is a jazz influence brought into tango, just as jazz musicians might bring a tango influence into American jazz.

And would US jazz musicians get the feel of Piazolla’s music right away? No... they need training and even then it will never be like a musician born in Argentina.

from interviews it seems Piazolla was always balancing the limitations but authentic feel of tango musicians against the virtuosity but lack of tango feel of classical and jazz players. The former could get the feel and understood the ornaments and effects, but couldn’t deal with the complexity; the latter vice versa.

I’d feel equally uncomfortable describing Choro or samba as jazz... or ragtime for that matter. Or show music of the early 20th century....

Bossa obviously again has that jazz influence, and overlaps.. but I don’t feel it is jazz itself.

Right, Jazz is Afro-American music, but it comes in many shapes. Guys like Jerome Kern, Victor Young, Hoagy Carmichael were American but not Afro. Victor Young embarked on a career as a concert violinist with the Warsaw Philharmonic and later graduated from the Warsaw Conservatory.

"Autumn Leaves" one of the most popular standards around here was composed by Joseph Kosma of Hungary. Nothing Afro-American about that.

So, these composers got associated with Jazz because Afro-American musicians played their songs in a certain fashion and people got dancing feet and did the Jive.

Tango is music associated with the Tango rhythm, Bossa is music associated with the Samba rhythm and every dance that got hip got its own music, Rumba, Mambo, Square dance, Line dance, Minuet, Wiener Walz, Disco dance etc...

From the 20s and on the Afro-Americans did Swing dances like Jitterbug, Lindy-hop and Jive. The music was called Jazz. Now we're stuck with Hip-hop for the last 30 years. Ain't nobody dancing no more... save for the pole dance.

Stan Getz promoted the Jazz-Samba. He was an American with Ukrainian roots. Piazzollas grandfather moved from Italy to Argentine, Astor moved to NYC, later he stayed in Italy for a while and wrote Libertango. The mix of influences make things happen.

[Marinero]

Hi, Jcat,
My only point in regards to Helseth's playing was that she's not a Jazzer . . . she's Classical, ergo to compare her playing to Dizzy is not a good comparison. And, it has nothing to do with improvisation but rather her "sound." I am both a Jazzer and Classically trained musician. Her sound is clear, consise and her technique flawless. However, when comparing the warmth of trumpet players like Miles, Chet Baker, Randy Brecker, Roy Hargrove and, of course, Wynton Marsalis--a true hybrid, she exists in another world. No big deal but I thought using her as an example didn't work other than that she played the music. Most average classical players, in my opinion, lack the warmth and personality of an average Jazzer. I think it's in the head . . . since they(Classical) usually are better trained technically. But . . . music is more than black dots on paper. Interesting videos, though J. Thanks. Good playing . . . Marinero

[JCat]

Hi, Jcat,
My only point in regards to Helseth's playing was that she's not a Jazzer . . . she's Classical, ergo to compare her playing to Dizzy is not a good comparison. And, it has nothing to do with improvisation but rather her "sound." I am both a Jazzer and Classically trained musician. Her sound is clear, consise and her technique flawless. However, when comparing the warmth of trumpet players like Miles, Chet Baker, Randy Brecker, Roy Hargrove and, of course, Wynton Marsalis--a true hybrid, she exists in another world. No big deal but I thought using her as an example didn't work other than that she played the music. Most average classical players, in my opinion, lack the warmth and personality of an average Jazzer. I think it's in the head . . . since they(Classical) usually are better trained technically. But . . . music is more than black dots on paper. Interesting videos, though J. Thanks. Good playing . . . Marinero

Hi Marinero,
Point taken, Like Christian I hear "A Night In Tunisia" in "Libertango". Then I associate to the composer; Dizzy Gillespie. It's actually hard not to when Libertango is played on Trumpet. Other than that I really like Tines tone.

Here's Dominick Farinacci with a slightly more a jazzy approach for you. There's a Vibraphone too, and some nice improvisations.

[christianm77]

Right, Jazz is Afro-American music, but it comes in many shapes. Guys like Jerome Kern, Victor Young, Hoagy Carmichael were American but not Afro. Victor Young embarked on a career as a concert violinist with the Warsaw Philharmonic and later graduated from the Warsaw Conservatory.

"Autumn Leaves" one of the most popular standards around here was composed by Joseph Kosma of Hungary. Nothing Afro-American about that.

So, these composers got associated with Jazz because Afro-American musicians played their songs in a certain fashion and people got dancing feet and did the Jive.

Tango is music associated with the Tango rhythm, Bossa is music associated with the Samba rhythm and every dance that got hip got its own music, Rumba, Mambo, Square dance, Line dance, Minuet, Wiener Walz, Disco dance etc...

From the 20s and on the Afro-Americans did Swing dances like Jitterbug, Lindy-hop and Jive. The music was called Jazz. Now we're stuck with Hip-hop for the last 30 years. Ain't nobody dancing no more... save for the pole dance.

Stan Getz promoted the Jazz-Samba. He was an American with Ukrainian roots. Piazzollas grandfather moved from Italy to Argentine, Astor moved to NYC, later he stayed in Italy for a while and wrote Libertango. The mix of influences make things happen.

And of course lest we forget jazz has always been a mix of influences. There is no ‘pure jazz.’

[JCat]

Rock & Roll killed Bossa Nova and I got proof:

Elvis is jumping the shark

[Patlotch]

I think there is a great harmonic compatibility between jazz and bossa-nova, this without diminishing Jobim's contribution. Rhythmically, it's a different matter, and in jazz-bossa, we are often far from João Gilberto, except when he is present, of course, with Getz

bossa-nova fashion in jazz is accompanied by a reduction in the playing of bassists who no longer has anything of the rhythmic charm of Latin American music in general. The problem with Afro-Cubans is sometimes found. Fortunately Dizzy went through this, with Chano Pozzo...

I had a trio with saxophonist and a Colombian percussionist. It was quite difficult to get along rhythmically, the sax and I on binary themes, the percussionist on the ternary swing of jazz

later I worked the djembe in a group of African percussion and congas. The rhythmic setting, like that of the bass (Cachao type), is very different from jazz

I recently re-listened to a Grant Green album, The Latin Bit, with a Cuban rhythm with the excellent Willie Bobo to the drums Carlos Potato Valdez at congas. From the guitarist's point of view, the record is far from being his best, accumulation of his bluesy licks, but in terms of binary groove, it is very good and better than ternary swing

to return to jazz and bossa nova, I think a little-known source is Bud Shank's recordings with Laurindo Almeida, in the early 50'. From the point of view of the atmosphere, it's pretty close to the bossa that will come with Jobim and jazz

[Marinero]

I think there is a great harmonic compatibility between jazz and bossa-nova, this without diminishing Jobim's contribution. Rhythmically, it's a different matter, and in jazz-bossa, we are often far from João Gilberto, except when he is present, of course, with Getz

bossa-nova fashion in jazz is accompanied by a reduction in the playing of bassists who no longer has anything of the rhythmic charm of Latin American music in general. The problem with Afro-Cubans is sometimes found. Fortunately Dizzy went through this, with Chano Pozzo...

I had a trio with saxophonist and a Colombian percussionist. It was quite difficult to get along rhythmically, the sax and I on binary themes, the percussionist on the ternary swing of jazz

later I worked the djembe in a group of African percussion and congas. The rhythmic setting, like that of the bass (Cachao type), is very different from jazz

I recently re-listened to a Grant Green album, The Latin Bit, with a Cuban rhythm with the excellent Willie Bobo to the drums Carlos Potato Valdez at congas. From the guitarist's point of view, the record is far from being his best, accumulation of his bluesy licks, but in terms of binary groove, it is very good and better than ternary swing

to return to jazz and bossa nova, I think a little-known source is Bud Shank's recordings with Laurindo Almeida, in the early 50'. From the point of view of the atmosphere, it's pretty close to the bossa that will come with Jobim and jazz

Hi, P,
The first was a "potboiler," the second lacked something?, but the third was a nice sound with Shank's alto reminiscent of Getz's ground breaking Bossa albums. Bossa is not Jazz and Jazz is not Bossa. It has its own feel, it has a strong tradition of, in my opinion, a dream-like melody accompanied by mellifluous accompaniment. Ergo, tunes like: Girl from Ipanema, Meditcao, One Note Samba, Corvocado, Desfinado, etc. etc. Bossa is its own genre. It has its own traditions. And, when played well . . . it is not a step down from Jazz. Here's Vinicius de Moraes And Maria Creuza in the Bossa Classic: "Eu Se Que Te Amar" in a very artsy rendition with some very tasty guitar. Good playing . . .Marinero

[joelf]

Hi guys,

How are you?

I recently heard, I am not sure if it is real or not, Tom Jobim said that brazilian musicians killed bossa nova incorporating too much jazz in it.

I always thought that bossa nova was created borrowing from jazz harmony and rhythm from samba.

Is there a way too sound more bossa(ish) than jazzy, speaking in harmony only, not rhythm...

Does bossa nova or Brazilian music have some specifications, peculiarities compared to jazz that makes bossa, brazilian music unique? Harmonically specking.

Thanks.

We play it with an American accent, especially rhythmically, and they play jazz with a Brasilian accent. How could it be otherwise, not coming from the other culture? One can either become a serious student of that culture and go the distance with it, or simply allow it to wash over one as an influence----then take the hits from the purists.

Remember, Jobim was himself controversial: Some Samba purists and the poor from the favelas said his music was watered-down Samba played by and for the middle class living around Ipanema...

[Patlotch]

none of the solos on that record is actually played over a binary groove. apart from the heads it is a pure swing record (and regarded by many GG afficinados to be one of his finest records.)

that's what I noticed too, and the Latin rhythm on the ternary is often problematic at that time. In my opinion there is still a problem of different musical cultures, but fashion wanted that (Ray Barreto playing the utilities to give a Latin color ...)

as for finding it one of Grant Green's best records, each his opinion. The own of afficianodas is often to be unconditional. This one is full of licks and cliches, certainly its trademark, but for me, it does not support to be re-listened several times, it quickly becomes boring. I actually listen to this records for Patato Valdez of which I am a fan

[Fz2016]

Hey 2bop is that a picture of Wes? I can't tell?

[Patlotch]

the other "White Album"
we talked a lot about Jobim, but without João Gilberto, no Bossa-Nova

[joelf]

the other "White Album"
we talked a lot about Jobim, but without João Gilberto, no Bossa-Nova

Among other things one of the most relaxed rhythm guitarists ever...

[Patlotch]

Among other things one of the most relaxed rhythm guitarists ever...

it's not just relaxation, but a very special rhythmic setting, inherent in samba and its Afro-Brazilian origins

I became aware of this peculiarity by playing with a Colombian percussionist inspired by music of African origin, and working the djembe and drum in a West African music group. Even Elvin Jones was surprised when he went there in the late 1970s I think. It has to do with the perception of beat and polyrhythm. Between Gilberto's singing and guitar there is a subtle polyrhythm

In fact the bossa nova is based on a clave (batida) 3/2 or 2/3, which, most of the time, disappears in bossa-nova-jazz, including changes of chords on the 4th beat. We find the same problem when we compare the Afro-Cuban rhythms of Cachao or Bebo Valdés for example and Afro-Cuban in a jazz context. Afro Cubans play on different versions of clave, while jazzmen play on the 4/4. The perception of the beat is different from the start. It seems to me that it is only later that the osmosis is successful (Tânia Maria, Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Michel Camilo...)

With that, there is the relationship to spoken language, Brazilian Portuguese is quite far from English

Moreover, Gilberto was very jealous of his guitar chords, which he tended to hide. I don't know how he adapted Jobim's piano...

[Marinero]

And, here's Los Maestros with the sound that brought Bossa to America. Good playing . . . Marinero

[Patlotch]

...

I specify my answer below
you can clearly hear the bossa's clave, it's very clear at the start of the tune. They're all stuck on it, except maybe Getz, but it doesn't matter, it hovers, on a great rhythm in this record, which I didn't know. Thanks

personally, I did not have too much problem to play the clave by tapping the foot in two, or to spot the different claves by listening to music: 3/2 or 2/3, son, rumba, Brazil, in 4/4 or 6/8. I learned that with Latino musicians, and worked a little congas

see Clave (rhythm) Wikipedia

it's much harder to play comping or improvisation on the clave, forgetting the 4/4 or 6/8 beat