Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 51 to 93 of 93
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    I'm not. Mind you, there is something vaguely ridiculous about spending 2 pages analysing six notes out of a whole solo.

    Milt Jackson never went to no hi-falutin music college. We're looking at these things from a modern perspective and we probably know too much for our own good. I tabbed out that solo, slowed it down had a good listen to it. It's very, very standard, just the usual format of that era. He played the chords as written, stuck a bit of diminished (nothing fancy, just a natural B) in bar 6, and put in some altered sounds over that C7. It probably doesn't matter what notes he used. Here's a guy who needed an altered sound so he went up a notch and doodled about. Hence the Db. He only did it twice in a row (precise same lick) and then didn't, just put some bluesy lines in. He liked slowish 12-bars, that was his thing. So here we come, picking and tearing at his notes like he was Einstein... he wasn't. That solo is very standard stuff. I'm not putting it down, the guy could play and put on a show, but his notes and approach to that solo is nothing stand-out. But then it doesn't have to be.

    I don't know why the OP started this, or rather I do. Either it's an academic exercise imposed on him or he thinks that in micro-analysing stuff like this he'll play better. It won't. The thing to do is grab the principle of what's going on and then do it your own way. And it's not difficult. Finding something dissonant to play over the V chord is dead easy. Just slip-slide it if you're not sure.

    That's my twopence. Take it or spit on it!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    everything I write here is important and substantial for me... if takes 10 or 50 or 1000 pages.. then it is as much as needed...

    Nobody forces anyone to get into it...

    And I see nothing 'academic' in what I posted here.. everything was connected with music - how it sounds, how it works, how it plays and how it lives...

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post

    And I see nothing 'academic' in what I posted here.. .
    I was talking about the OP, Jonah, not you. Sorry to disappoint that it wasn't about you!

    Just grab the principle.


  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    Incidentally, this is why it's NOT Bo over the C7. There's a vast difference between an altered sound that works and one that doesn't because it's just wrong.


  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    If I hear correctly you play it in a different place than MJ's lick comes up...

    In blues - as I hear it there are two different IV-I moves...

    One happens in the middle that in jazz goes like IV - IVo - I/V (you played that sequence too)

    Another one is final plagal cadence IV - I that in just is often substituted with common dominant cadene or as set of ii-v's


    The first type is like IV -V-I movement
    The second type has very characteristic plagal V- IV-I sound... that's why doninant thing does not work here (or it should be totally subsituted with only dominant)


    Maybe I do not inderstand what you mean really?

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    I find this thread quite funny.

    If you spend a bit of time checking out bop and swing you are going to find a lot of instances of this type of thing.

    The function of C7 is to move to F. The same is true of Bo7

    A massive mistake people raised on CST make is to think that there’s really always a vertical correspondence between note choices and chords. Sometimes the horizontal considerations. - where the phrase is going - is much more important.

    Anyway, Bo7 on C7 is something I play, and it sounds great. The function of say:

    Gm7 C7 F
    And
    Bb Bo7 F

    Is really the same. Invisible paths anyway - take a different route to the same (or related destination.) Play one on the other. If you know how to phrase towards the destination - the D say... it will sound great.

    Another favourite example is when Birelli plays C#7 on A7, not a million miles away.

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    If I hear correctly you play it in a different place than MJ's lick comes up...

    In blues - as I hear it there are two different IV-I moves...

    One happens in the middle that in jazz goes like IV - IVo - I/V (you played that sequence too)

    Another one is final plagal cadence IV - I that in just is often substituted with common dominant cadene or as set of ii-v's


    The first type is like IV -V-I movement
    The second type has very characteristic plagal V- IV-I sound... that's why doninant thing does not work here (or it should be totally subsituted with only dominant)


    Maybe I do not inderstand what you mean really?
    The V IV I movement was not in 12 bar blues during the bop era

    EDIT: i misunderstood your post. I basically agree I think? But as long as you have a chord that bridges Subdomiant and tonic you are fine

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I find this thread quite funny.

    If you spend a bit of time checking out bop and swing you are going to find a lot of instances of this type of thing.

    The function of C7 is to move to F. The same is true of Bo7

    A massive mistake people raised on CST make is to think that there’s really always a vertical correspondence between note choices and chords. Sometimes the horizontal considerations. - where the phrase is going - is much more important.

    Anyway, Bo7 on C7 is something I play, and it sounds great. The function of say:

    Gm7 C7 F
    And
    Bb Bo7 F

    Is really the same. Invisible paths anyway - take a different route to the same (or related destination.) Play one on the other. If you know how to phrase towards the destination - the D say... it will sound great.

    Another favourite example is when Birelli plays C#7 on A7, not a million miles away.
    I do not thing I disgareed with that...
    Actually I chimed into this thread because I heard 'common thig' as uncommon and I found it interesting to understand why...

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    The V IV I movement was not in 12 bar blues during the bop era
    I know. I wrote.

    'Another one is final plagal cadence IV - I that in just is often substituted with common dominant cadene or as set of ii-v's' (I meant ' in jazz' but I did not notice autocorrection in browser)



  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    Anyway, Bo7 on C7 is something I play, and it sounds great.
    You better show me then. I just played it twice (Bo over C7) and it sounds rubbish.

    You show me how great it sounds* and I will bow to you... deeply :-)

    * Over that standard 12 bar, not some obscure bebop thing.

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Make sure you connect strongly into the resolution on the F chord. You are hearing horizontally into that resolution, not vertically on the C7 chord

    Can’t record next three days at least

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Anyway, Bo7 on C7 is something I play, and it sounds great. The function of say:

    Gm7 C7 F
    And
    Bb Bo7 F
    Except, it is not on C7.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Make sure you connect strongly into the resolution on the F chord. You are hearing horizontally into that resolution, not vertically on the C7 chord
    Oh, right, you have to bend it a bit, eh? Uh huh :-)

    Can’t record next three days at least
    I can wait, no prob. Play at least one chorus of the 12-bar so it's in context. Not just C7-F in isolation.

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Except, it is not on C7.
    We're talking about Bo over C7 to F at the end, not Bb7/Bo to F in bar 6.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Oh, right, you have to bend it a bit, eh? Uh huh :-)



    I can wait, no prob. Play at least one chorus of the 12-bar so it's in context. Not just C7-F in isolation.
    Well I would do the same for any line regardless of harmonic content. Bop lines move towards resolution points - Forward Motion.

    Anyway, I get what Jonah was talking about now... The IV sub in bar 10 of a Chicago blues. This is similar.

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Bop lines move towards resolution points
    Thank god, it's always a good idea to get somewhere in the end :-)

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    We're talking about Bo over C7 to F at the end, not Bb7/Bo to F in bar 6.
    Why would you think I did not know that? Anyway, I quoted what I was responding to.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Why would you think I did not know that? Anyway, I quoted what I was responding to.
    Ah, I think I've misunderstood you. I think you were saying that Bb7/Bo-F is where it should go, not over the C7. Is that right?

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    As I've done X and Y we might as well have Z too!


    There are only three diminished chords so here, slowly, is:

    Gm7 - Co - FM7 (wrong to my ear)

    Gm7 - Bo - FM7 (the one I think is serious rubbish!)

    Gm7 - Bbo - FM7 (the only one that works for me)


  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    Yeah you aren’t phrasing through the barline

    So the melody has to belong to C7 its own separate world. You have to establish a vertical relationship in this case.

    The op line, that Bo7 is a kind of pick up into F - look at the way he enclosed the note F. Couldn’t be clearer! So the line is heard as —> F, not C7

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Otoh if you strongly resolved Bo7 into a C7 chord tone it would obviously work.

    So maybe we are talking at cross purposes. I don’t imagine the Bo7 to be euphonious to the C7. But I don’t really hear the C7 chord to be (necessarily) a euphonious chord in harmonic jazz (as opposed to modal)

    One exception might be longer dominant chords like you get in the middle 8 of rhythm changes.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-14-2018 at 03:24 PM.

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah you aren’t phrasing through the barline
    Fair comment. But you can't say I wasn't resolving those lines to F, they went right into it.

    In fact, I don't know what you mean, if I'm honest! Through the barline?

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    There’s a book called Forward Motion by Hal Galper which has really influenced my thinking.

    To summarise the idea, think of the line as a pick up into beat 1 of the F bar, and phrase into that note, imagining the beaming of eighth notes to go across the bar line. So in the example in the op, that D is joined onto the C. Then the notes after that C - F A etc is a new phrase.

    In this way you are always playing into the resolution on the next chord rather than playing on the present chord. Bebop lines do seem to have this quality.

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    What I hear in that bar is Bb13 going to a fragment of a diminished chord, specifically, the B and D.

    This leads back to F7, so the B and D give way, in the harmony, to a C and an Eb.

    So, the harmony is a Bb7 going to a Bdim to an F7, which suggests, among other things, an ascending bass line, Bb B, C (that chord being F7/C).

    I hear the underlying structure as an ascending harmonic line.

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There’s a book called Forward Motion by Hal Galper which has really influenced my thinking.

    To summarise the idea, think of the line as a pick up into beat 1 of the F bar, and phrase into that note, imagining the beaming of eighth notes to go across the bar line. So in the example in the op, that D is joined onto the C. Then the notes after that C - F A etc is a new phrase.

    In this way you are always playing into the resolution on the next chord rather than playing on the present chord. Bebop lines do seem to have this quality.
    I understand, but I'm not sure that pushing forwarding into and through an F line would make any difference to the actual effect of the notes over the C7. Except perhaps to disguise them slightly.

    I know bebop lines have that quality, absolutely, but this is just a standard 12-bar jazz blues. No doubt it can be played as hard bop but I don't think it started life that way.

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Bb7 going to a Bdim to an F7
    Which is precisely what I am quite sure sounds bloody awful :-)

    Try Bbo instead and feel the difference. On the guitar those notes resolve naturally, the fingering just works automatically. Shift it all up one to Bo and it fails. Dismally.

    Listen to my experiment in #69, it's so obvious.

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I understand, but I'm not sure that pushing forwarding into and through an F line would make any difference to the actual effect of the notes over the C7. Except perhaps to disguise them slightly.
    That's exactly what I'm saying, it all depends on the sense of the line. Its like German.... the verb goes at the end of the sentence....

    It's like if you played Cm6 on C#o7 in isolation you'd think it was crap, but if you had the soloist play a line that strongly outlines the progression C Cm6 | Bm and the accomp go C C#o7 | G - suddenly it works. Because the function of both the C#o7 and Cm6 chords are voice-leading from C to G, right?

    They aren't really a thing in their own right, any more that the B is in the B C D C neighbour tone line on a C7 chord. It's just a passing chord.

    Similarly, if I play Bb Bo7 F on Gm7 C7 F, it will work, just as Bb Bbm6 F works. In fact, it will even sound cool if the line is cool.

    Recorded jazz c1920-1960 is full of this stuff. People playing for instance two versions of blues on top of each other... Or swapping between two versions of the changes in the same line... Invisible Paths, Steve Coleman calls them - not vertical substitutes, but different routes to a destination.

    This is a bit of a debate.... Gunther Schuller actually defined these sorts of things as 'mistakes' in his writing - as if anything Louis Armstrong ever played was a mistake. Academics, huh.

    Ethan Iverson OTOH sees them as a feature of harmonic jazz. I agree with him. They are everywhere. Therefore, they can't be considered 'wrong.'

    I think Reg's concept of tonal targets might be the same thing put differently, btw.

    I know bebop lines have that quality, absolutely, but this is just a standard 12-bar jazz blues. No doubt it can be played as hard bop but I don't think it started life that way.
    Well I play bop on pretty much everything, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask :-)

    So does Milt Jackson tho. Mind you that Dbmaj7 on C7 is fairly standard backdoor (Eb dominant) stuff.

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    I think the issue is that he used a fragment of Bdim.

    So, you hear Bb/D then B/D then C/Eb.

    Sounded great.

  30. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying, it all depends on the sense of the line. Its like German.... the verb goes at the end of the sentence...
    I understand all that. But 'at the end of the sentence' is right, we're talking the end of the chorus. When I played the whole chorus I did go through the Bb7/Bo - F because it makes sense at that point. But at the end it doesn't; it needs a pause at that point. Somewhat of a pause anyway.

    It's like if you played Cm6 on C#o7 in isolation you'd think it was crap, but if you had the soloist play a line that strongly outlines the progression C Cm6 | Bm and the accomp go C C#o7 | G - suddenly it works. Because the function of both the C#o7 and Cm6 chords are voice-leading from C to G, right?

    They aren't really a thing in their own right, any more that the B is in the B C D C neighbour tone line on a C7 chord. It's just a passing chord.
    That's what I'm saying. In the middle it's just a passing chord.

    Similarly, if I play Bb Bo7 F on Gm7 C7 F, it will work, just as Bb Bbm6 F works. In fact, it will even sound cool if the line is cool.
    I just woke up thinking that. But I wouldn't apply that kind of theory to a nice simple 12-bar. That's how to get your knickers in a right old twist.

    Ethan Iverson OTOH sees them as a feature of harmonic jazz. I agree with him. They are everywhere. Therefore, they can't be considered 'wrong.'
    Ah, I never said anything was 'wrong' in the condemnatory sense, I just said those notes over that chord sound like rubbish. They're the wrong diminished sound at that point. I'm sticking to that because there's very little doubt about it.

    Well I play bop on pretty much everything, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask :-)
    On the contrary, I think you're probably the wrong person to answer it!

    So does Milt Jackson tho.
    I said before I tabbed out and slowed down all of his solos on that transcription. It's all very standard fare - chords as written, a bit of Bo in bar 6, and an altered sound at the end. Dead simple, nothing fancy at all. Have a look for yourself.

    Mind you that Dbmaj7 on C7 is fairly standard backdoor (Eb dominant) stuff.
    We've already said all that, look back. Anyway, this is beginning to loop now, not a good sign.

    I await your demonstration!

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    Bar 8 it is variation similar to| Am D| (or |Am Ab|) to |Gm| in bar 9 .. after |Gm|, ...
    ... in bar 10 soloist continues with harmonic rhythm by playing |Db C |, to |F| in bar 11.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I understand all that. But 'at the end of the sentence' is right, we're talking the end of the chorus. When I played the whole chorus I did go through the Bb7/Bo - F because it makes sense at that point. But at the end it doesn't; it needs a pause at that point. Somewhat of a pause anyway.



    That's what I'm saying. In the middle it's just a passing chord.



    I just woke up thinking that. But I wouldn't apply that kind of theory to a nice simple 12-bar. That's how to get your knickers in a right old twist.



    Ah, I never said anything was 'wrong' in the condemnatory sense, I just said those notes over that chord sound like rubbish. They're the wrong diminished sound at that point. I'm sticking to that because there's very little doubt about it.



    On the contrary, I think you're probably the wrong person to answer it!



    I said before I tabbed out and slowed down all of his solos on that transcription. It's all very standard fare - chords as written, a bit of Bo in bar 6, and an altered sound at the end. Dead simple, nothing fancy at all. Have a look for yourself.



    We've already said all that, look back. Anyway, this is beginning to loop now, not a good sign.

    I await your demonstration!
    You’ve framed this in such a way I’m not sure any demonstration would assuage you lol

  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    Get on with it. If you make your Bo sound like it makes sense I'll be the first to grovel.

    But, of course, anyone can make the whole thing sound so completely out/beboppy/altered that by the time we get to the end it doesn't matter what the notes are!

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Get on with it. If you make your Bo sound like it makes sense I'll be the first to grovel.
    I don’t actually really care what you think tbh.

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I don’t actually really care what you think tbh.
    Sorry needlessly grumpy. It’s been a long weekend and I wish I was near a guitar long enough to play the bloody example which would take all of 5 secs.

    Cold turkey.

    Anyway, you could still dismiss that line under the terms of your own aesthetic and be right to do so. It seems like you have so many caveats in your previous posts there’s hardly any point cos you would just say, oh that sounds like bop to me, or that’s outside etc.

    I have enough hoops to jump through in my life without jumping through yours. So with all due respect and in the nicest possible way: get lost.

    (I’d do it for money.)

  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    Don't worry, bit grumpy myself, possibly the snow.

    Um...

    Well, Billie's Bounce is, of course, a bebop favourite and it's wrong of me to say it shouldn't be played bebop. Otoh, we were talking about Milt Jackson's solo which is, as I've said, pretty straightforward stuff.

    I understand exactly what you meant about playing through the bar, i.e. a driving forward motion, etc, and it's true that the ear can tolerate almost any dissonant notes over a dom. However, bebop notwithstanding, I'm not for a moment going to accede that the sound of a Bo over a C7 sounds any good. Dammit, I've just done a hundred trials of it! The only dim that works is the Bb/E/G/C# one... but I've said all that.

    Anyway, happy to get stuffed because it doesn't matter. I am aware, though, that it means you won't be expected to make your point with a recorded example now... funny that :-)

  37. #86

    User Info Menu

    Quite interesting to see what George and Wes made of it.

    Billie_s_Bounce_George_Benson_C.pdf

    Doc - Feb 9, 2012 2-53 PM.pdf

  38. #87

    User Info Menu

    Now that I reviewed the argument, it seems to be whether you can get from Gm7 to F via Bdim7.

    That puts B D F Ab against C7. Not obvious choices, eh?

    The question that occurs to me is this: If you play a nice line on Gm7 and a compatible line on Fmaj, can't you do just about anything in between if the larger line works melodically? Isn't that the whole thing about targets?

    In this particular case, my thinking is that you can use Bdim7 to get some outside sounding notes, but you have to be extremely careful where they're placed. It is not going to work to play 8 eighth notes of Gm7 followed by 8 eighth notes of Bo followed by 8 eighth notes of Fmaj.

    Rather, you're more likely to make music by playing just a few well placed 8ths from Bo and resolving to Fmaj before the end of the Bo bar. When I transcribe an outside sound I like, typically that's what I find.

  39. #88

    User Info Menu

    Bo resolving to Fmaj is quite common. Bo is the same as Fo so in a sense you'd be resolving from Io to Imaj7 like in Jobim's tune Corcovado (quiet nights) in bar 7. If you look at the notes in the chord F Ab B D, the Ab and B want to resolve up to A and C.

    But back to the OP. He was playing Bo7 going to F.

  40. #89

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    Bo resolving to Fmaj is quite common. Bo is the same as Fo so in a sense you'd be resolving from Io to Imaj7 like in Jobim's tune Corcovado (quiet nights) in bar 7. If you look at the notes in the chord F Ab B D, the Ab and B want to resolve up to A and C.

    But back to the OP. He was playing Bo7 going to F.
    The OP's #1 post was about bar 6. That's Bb7/Bo - F, which is what they all do. No problem there.

    Then, in his post #7, he asks about the line used in bar 10 and repeated in bar 22 over C7-F. We decided that it basically outlines a DbM7. No problem there.

    Except that somewhere the two got muddled and now they're trying to justify the use of the Bo in the first post over the C7 in the second.

    I say nothing.

  41. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Now that I reviewed the argument, it seems to be whether you can get from Gm7 to F via Bdim7.

    That puts B D F Ab against C7. Not obvious choices, eh?

    The question that occurs to me is this: If you play a nice line on Gm7 and a compatible line on Fmaj, can't you do just about anything in between if the larger line works melodically? Isn't that the whole thing about targets?

    In this particular case, my thinking is that you can use Bdim7 to get some outside sounding notes, but you have to be extremely careful where they're placed. It is not going to work to play 8 eighth notes of Gm7 followed by 8 eighth notes of Bo followed by 8 eighth notes of Fmaj.

    Rather, you're more likely to make music by playing just a few well placed 8ths from Bo and resolving to Fmaj before the end of the Bo bar. When I transcribe an outside sound I like, typically that's what I find.
    And my point (still) is: why torture yourself trying to make it work when it plainly doesn't?

    Go down a notch to Bbo: Bb C# E G.

    Over C7? Perfection. Except I wouldn't use it at that point in a 12-bar, I'd use an altered sound :-)

  42. #91

    User Info Menu

    I read the one about Gm7 C7 and started there.

    But, even though that may have been a confused response to post #7, it still produces a valid point about targeting.

    As an exercise, can the Bo be made to sound good over the C7 by virtue of playing a strong enough line?

    My guess is that a strong line can create bitonality, but I'll have to try it to figure out whether I can get the bitonality to sound good.

  43. #92

    User Info Menu

    As an exercise, can the Bo be made to sound good over the C7 by virtue of playing a strong enough line?
    It does sound good. Bo line over C7 resoving to F is one the most common cliches.

  44. #93

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It does sound good. Bo line over C7 resoving to F is one the most common cliches.
    Got any examples (as it's very common)? Even just one?