-
Here are a few approaches for using CST and Subs.
So we're in key of "C"...Vamp on a Cmaj6/9, or C6 or Cmaj7... to a V7sus.. CST....C Ionian and Gmixo
Plain vanilla, right... you can use whatever you like to create relationships with that basic I V. Arps etc....
So if you like pentatonics.... C D E G A C.... 1 9 3 5 13. Same notes for G7sus, G A C D E G. Blue notes would be b3 and b7 and #11 or b5. Eb, Bb and F# or Gb. Again create relationships and develop improv.
The Relative Subs. for that basic vamp, can be Amin7 to B-7b5
Cmaj7 becomes A-7...A Aeolian, Pentatonic...A C D E G A
G7sus becomes B-7b5....B Locrian, Pentatonic...B D E G A B...The C changes to B..new relationship...
So the next layer of subs for me can be... Modal interchange subs
Cmaj becomes Cmaj7#11 Lydian and G7sus becomes G-7, Dorian. Which can be a IVmaj7 chord and sub of the II-7 chord for V7sus
So Chord Tones are same for Cmaj7 but mow the b7 blue note of Cmaj7 becomes a chord tone of the old V7sus chord... now a V-7 chord, G-7 .
The pentatonics change...
Cmaj7#11.... C D E F# A C.....1 9 3 #11 13 Blue note b3 or Bb
G-7... has a few option... but I usually use 1 b3 11 5 13 or G Bb C D E Now I'm starting to get some Blue Notes and more melodic movements and different Targets.
And of course the Diatonic Subs of Cmaj7#11 and G-7.... A-7 Dorian to Bbmaj Lydian, and pentatonics.
When I start using adding Tritone subs to the examples above... both using inverting the tritone and just tritone Root subs. I really start opening the Melodic Minor doors and Blue notes. Long story short....
For Cmaj7 Ionian to G7 mixo, I use Db7#11 or Lydianb7 from Melodic Minor. And the sub of that Sub becomes Altered.
G7 becomes Db7#11 and then becomes G7alt.
When I add the related II-7 to that V7 chord, I usually Mix Dorian and Melodic Min. If for example The 1st sub. Db7#11 is from Melodic Min. I generally use Dorian for the related Min. So Ab-7 to Db7 would be Ab Dorian to Db Lydian b7, (Abmm)
And when Cmaj7 becomes C Lydian, (through use of Modal Interchange), and G7 becomes G-7 Dorian... I generally reverse the tritone sub
II V CST scales. The Ab-7 would become Ab-maj7 and the Db7 would be Mixo.
So what this becomes is different frameworks for creating solos and comping. (Comping is not just playing the basic changes.)
I have basic References and create different Relationships and develop them.
There are more levels of subs and use of Modal Interchange which help with organizing the use of Blue Notes and Melodic Minor.
What I Do... is extend Functional relationships...with organization. I don't really think about this approach, It's very simple and instinctive... it's like using Plug and Play. Personally it's like adding a 7th or extension to a Triad. I've gone through the organizational part years ago.Last edited by Reg; 12-23-2017 at 01:06 PM.
-
12-23-2017 11:31 AM
-
I’m just happy to play first and foremost with the “brothers and sisters“.
Originally Posted by christianm77
Nothing could be more simple and more elegant and more useful. Play with the brothers and sisters. :-)
-
So, am I remembering right that you think you may have some old sheets on this kind of thing based around tunes etc? Originally Posted by Reg
Sorry. I know it's not Christmas yet. I'm a greedy schmuck. :-)
A lot in this post above by the way. Thanks.
-
Not into God... Man, Woman and the children... Originally Posted by NSJ
-
Hey Matt... yea and all in sloppy chicken scratch from late 60's and early 70's. I'll dig and try and clean up and post some more universal relationships... No disrespect at anyone, I just like the symbolic stuff also.
-
I think there’s a lot of God in “ Nuages“ and “blue Monk“. Originally Posted by Reg
-
Reg: The important thing for Me in that Tritone Sub linear exploration was :
Yeah I tried it just using Db Mixolydian and resolving to a Cminor and could feel the pull to C minor but the really cool stuff happened when I expanded and using all types of Blues Vocabulary from the Tritone7 Region and resolving to Cmin .
And that is Functional CST which suggests more possibilities and gives my ear a different Place to start from .
I see how your Organization System starts Basic then branches out to Secondary Substitions and Subs of the Subs and can take a basic Vamp and Expand it into a longer Chord Sequence which either :
[I actually think this way ..though less *expanded- which is why I am here lol.]
* Some of my Chord Progs on my Tunes are more expanded than most Standards but ...BFD.
1) Fits over existing Harmony adding interest ( Piano Part stays the same etc.)
2) Or creates some new Harmony
3)OR creates a whole Tune and using subs for subs can create Interesting Non Dominant Modulations .
That's why I like to think of Harmonic Regions in addition to " Amin7" or "ii7 " etc. and in actual Usage it always comes down to the actual " Voicings " on the Guitar but I am comping more and more like a Piano Player both physically and harmonically.
I personally will not learn a bunch of new scales BUT will learn and experiment with expanded functions etc.
So I am supplementing that but I relate to Roman Numeral and secondary Roman Numeral Functions ..
and also Harmonic Regions etc.
I will take a look at some of your Examples and see if I have some more 'Aha 'Moments.
Yes and Thanks as Matt said - those Vanilla are still very useful and become' spicy Vanilla' when Transposed ...lol.
And I like Pentas because they are slightly more spread out and Harmonically more Focused( ALL CHORD TONES - like a few of your examples ) and also more ambiguous than 7 Noters.
Funny thing ...one of the main differences between Rock Players and Jazzers is Rock Players and Blues Players almost NEVER Jam on Major Seventh type chords or Major 7th Type Blues..but they ALL can Play Pentatonics...
So does CST or Berklee or anyone teach them how to shift the Pentas for Major 7th and Maj Ninths and wail away?
Not usually ..getting a little better...but give them something easy like Pentas and let them Chromaticize them a bit ...THEN try seven note scales...they are awkward for anyone who is not rhythmically advanced IMO.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to ALL.Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-23-2017 at 04:46 PM.
-
Cool... so roman numerals with jazz generally imply an analysis.... which when you actual break it down, is just a label for what type of Function the chord implies. Function is just the power which creates movement or rest with the music. Generally harmonic or chordal, but also includes melodic implication. Harmonic implications realized melodically.
Melodic movement, voice leading and typical contrapuntal guidelines are really just one's choice of how to realize harmony, melodically.
I understand... the melody is everything and etc... but a note without a harmonic relationship doesn't do much. Great melodies imply harmony and harmonic relationships. It's not a chicken or egg thing, they're both going on all the time.
Regions... does have an existing usage from Schoenberg. (his Structural Functions of Harmony). He used the term to help define modal leading tones, or substitute 7th tones and also 6ths. These and other substitutes... as he called non-diatonic notes to a existing scale, anyway, Substitutes derived from relationships to a tonality... became almost like... independent separate tonalities, which he called Regions. The term and usage helped understand and hear expanded harmonic relationships within the Harmony of more complex composed Music. ( the regions were a type of relationship to a tonal reference... a tonality). Was useful when dealing with possible modulations.
Voicings again are just how one chooses to realize the music. Some work better than others, just as some players are better than others.
Generally great players can make almost anything sound great.
-
Yes when younger I was reading Harmony by Walter Piston and I did read some of Schoenberg's Book and absorbed the Harmonic Regions from that.
I did not get what I wanted on Modulation from those Books ..Piston especially over- emphasized Pivot Chords IMO - because on Distant Modulations - to
' interpret the Pivot Chord in both the Old and New Keys becomes hard to see in Distant Modulations and there are new ways to Resolve Tritones.
I experiment with Modulations and returns to Home Key etc..but distant Modulations .. often it is better to
get the Target Key Established with specific Voicings
included and work backwards if I want a smoother Transition and I am not over - using Circle of Fifths as much as Tin Pan Alley did though it is an easy and effective way to create Melodies and Modulate.
..
-
Robert,
I'm still struggling to understand this.
You mentioned some examples -- would you mention (again?, did I miss it?) where to find them. I did see the one about the two chord vamp, but I'd like to see how this works for an actual tune.
Thanks,
Rick
-
Something that gets me quite excited is that cycle fifth progressions have a really close relationship with descending scalar bass lines and melodic sequences.
It’s baroque stuff, but it’s also obvious to anyone who has spent time paying ‘Freddie green’ rhythm guitar.
Pete Bernstein gave a nice example in recent masterclass with Jordan on confirmation.
There’s crossovers with things like the Andulusian cadence/lamento bass line (Im - bVII - bVI - V)
These can then easily by converted to cycle progressions or padded out with chromatic passing tones.
It’s a different perspective on familiar material that I find quite useful for avoiding that ugly leaping bass thing when comping without bass etc
-
... playing.
-
...sleeping.
-
Actually the discussion has gone a long way to improve sleeping... Originally Posted by Jonah
-
Which part - I am Involved with Composition but the Priciples are the Same , obviously , but if you specify which exact quote ...I can maybe Clarify THEN get more Clarification from the 'Real 'Theory Guys lol. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Specifically which part of what I said?
I can give you exact tab for a quick Composition or Two Chord Vamp in the Tritone Region that drops into the Minor Region a half step down ( well 3 chords actually ) and you Play Db Mixolydian and Any and All Blues Licks in Db ...THEN instead of up a fourth like Blues you drop into the Cminor Region ..
So In ANY Tune with a Secondary Dominant to a Minor Chord say V7 of vi ....you can play Blues in the T7 ' Region' [ #I7 of vi ] or [ T7 of vi ] and drop into the vi on the Beat...
The reason I think of 'Regions ' is obviously to expand my thinking Cminor 7th as Region means I can use ii half diminished iv minor v minor Arps AND use THEM as Secondary Targets - I am a physically vertical Player so I am not going to change the higher % of vertical playing in my lines ( than most ) but instead use the Horizontal Chaff ( lol ) to augment the Vertical.
I like Pentas cause they are a LITTLE more vertical than scales...and of course scales in thirds and fourths , fifths I am back to vertical anyway...
You probably DO understand it maybe my explanation was poor.
I am a Pro Writer and can give you TABs on exact Voicings to make what I said sound really cool ...Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-27-2017 at 12:51 PM.
-
Maybe I should do a Relaxation CD instead, lol. Originally Posted by guido5
You Guys who knew this 5 ,10 ,20 ,years ago - sorry .
It WILL get more exciting when we cover the scales and harmonic Regions that *stimulate women the most....( Slonimsky chapter 4).
*Not really.
*It's a joke
* Not funny ?
*Yes it is please laugh here ___^Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-27-2017 at 03:41 PM.
-
I think I'm mostly struggling with unfamiliar vocabulary, e.g. region, secondary target, tritone region, minor region. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Just taking this paragraph:
"So In ANY Tune with a Secondary Dominant to a Minor Chord say V7 of vi ....you can play Blues in the T7 ' Region' [ #I7 of vi ] or [ T7 of vi ] and drop into the vi on the Beat..."
When I translate it into Key C (to simplify the terminology for myself), you're describing, if I understand it, playing an E7 to an Am. And, suggesting that one can play a Bb7 against the E7. But, apparently, the "T7 Region", includes more than just that Bb7. What else might it include?
-
My Example is far simpler than that -
I started with Db Mixolydian which had a more complicated name ( Tritone Dominant Scale ).
I know that the Tritone Sub Db7 substitutes for G7 ( and G7 alt.) So both Chords resolve to C OR Cminor
Therefore Db Mixolydian should also pull toward Cminor 7 and it does.
Therefore ALL the derivatives of the Tritone Region in this case D b7 should resolve and pull toward C minor 7 or any Cminor ...and they do !
You can even Play Blues in Db7 ...for one Bar .. or maybe 2 Bars ..
AND instead of going up a fourth like 99.4% of most
Blues Tunes go down to C minor...
Don't get too distracted by Keys ( at first )
Just think of a Simple V- i then Substitute the
Tritone 7th Chord T7 -i .
Any Arps scales, licks that work on a Db 7 will pull toward a Cmin7 - I suggested and Played Blues because Blues to most People suggests much more than merely one Scale and I tested it that way.
This is the beginning ( and only the beginning ).
You can' borrow' or substitute more things from the Db7 Region that will still pull toward the Cminor .Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-27-2017 at 05:37 PM.
-
So, "derivative of the tritone region" means anything that works for Db7? Originally Posted by Robertkoa
So, the gist of it is that you can play Db7 licks over G7. Is that it, or am I still missing something?
Also, thanks for being patient with my questions.
-
No problem -that's it essentially true with the understanding that a direct Substitution of Db 7 Region will often give a G7 Altered Sound... Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Others on here I am sure can take the Theory further but it sounds good on Pop/ R&B not just Jazz.
So my example going to Cminor allows either one ..
Know that depending on what you borrow you will be in G7 altered territory..
I knew about substituting the Chords but it surprised me how well it works borrowing Improv. material- no doubt why people are lured to CST.. ( duh ! Lol ).
But again I want to stress that I quickly dropped the Db Mixolydian and started Targeting the Db7 Chord itself approaching from ii iv ..and a few Pentas so NOT really CST .
And not an Altered Dominant sound ...I was composing a Vamp kind of like 'smooth Jazz' except I use strong Harmonic Rhythms ..
For Alt - I would have used G7
I am surprised that more Blues Tunes don't drop into the Minor Keys a half step down ...
Actually I mentioned here long ago that I was surprised that Jazz Blues Forms rarely modulate...
Not many Writers...?Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-28-2017 at 08:25 PM.
-
Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Thank you for taking the time to explain it.
I'd add a couple of points.
If the idea is to get into altered territory (which works well for a V7 going to a I), there are a couple of ways to do it. Key of C to make the verbiage a little easier. The idea of playing your Db7 licks against G7 is excellent.
If you play Db F Ab B, and nothing else, you'll get a G7b9#11 sound.
If you play Db9, that adds an Eb and you get G7#11 b9 b13, which is a terrific sound.
And, if you add the 6th (or call it 13th) to the Db7, you get a Bb, and that gives you both altered 5ths and ninths.
So, that's Db Eb F Ab Bb B. If you then add the root of G7 into that list of notes, you get the notes of Abmelmin, also known as Galt. Thinking about it from the point of view of Db7, you added the #11. You could use it, or not.
It can all sound great, particularly if the comping stays of G7. If the kb player, say, plays Db7, it will return to sounding vanilla.
For a shortcut, you can play Abm add9. If you like, you could think of Db7 as a V7 and Abm as the related iim. But, I just think "minor 9 a half step up and I'm careful with the Gb).
That gives you Ab B Eb Bb. From the point of view of G7, it's b9 3 b13 and #9. You don't get the Db.
To take it a little further, all melodic minor chords can be thought of as the same chord. So, G7alt is also Abmelmin Bbsusb9 Bmaj#5 Db7#11 and so forth through the Abmelmin scale. Anything you can cobble together from your knowledge of any of those chords will apply. Not only the chords built by stacking thirds, any tone cluster built from the scale.
Or, another way to think of it is start from G7 and group the chord tones, G B D F, notes which are consonant, A and E and then the "be more careful" notes, which include C, and the altered 5s and 9s. The only note left is F#, and there's an entire thread on why you can use that note too.
So, the theory justifies the entire chromatic scale, one way or another. That ends up being not very helpful, in a way. Andre Bush wrote a book about it - to him, apparently, any note would work. His playing sounded wild in a good way -- but Andre could play the older jazz forms just as well. His comment, "if I couldn't do that, I couldn't do this".
You end up having to pick some elements of all of this that help you make interesting solos. And you could think of that as figuring out which notes to play or, perhaps, which notes to omit. Usually, it seems to be a question of finding some structure -- exactly what you were talking about the "tritone region". And that's the full circle.
CST may be extremely helpful, but it's also true that players were doing all this stuff long before the letters CST stopped meaning the time zone in Chicago in the winter.
"
-
Well I have been Playing a long time - so I 'hear ' which notes to Play often and have spent a horribly long period of time getting to be able to play them lol.
The point was NOT to get into Alt Dom Territory ..the point was using T7 Region to bridge two distantly related Keys ..so I did a Vamp from Db7 to Db7 sus with a unique kinda Steely Dan Voicing....then dropped into Cminor 7 ( and to Dmin 7 and Fmajor)
And though I have no Recording Rig right now I kept that in mind and solo'd in a Kind of Norman Brown way except not smooth Jazz..
So I was not ' reversing ' just playing the Db 7 Region.
Alt Doms and Diminished 7ths are not a big interest for me..
I like Coltrane on My Favorite Things much more than the "out" stuff..
I think it's more challenging to Play Inside and Extremely Rhythmic or Melodic stuff.
The 'wow' for me was not CST - I quickly abandoned
actual Mixo -
^^^**** The 'wow' was that the Tritone Sub even in linear fashion brought the Two Distantly Related Keys together - .
I played the Chord you suggested G7b5b9 ( Complete Dominant Minor 9th Chord with flatted fifth as Walter Piston would say )-
You will never get Played on the Radio with that chord ..haha but it does sound good as V of V to C7#9 to Fmin .
Easy to play out stuff on Alt Doms ..I am not very interested in very dissonant Dominants.
I like your idea of CST to figure out what not to play
like the Sculptor who Sculpts an Elephant by 'removing everything that does not look like an Elephant '. Lol
So you would take the recommended CST Scale and 1 )Transpose it a b5 th or some other Interval .
2 )Remove those 7 notes
3) End up with the Pentatonic that has the 5 Notes you can Play with no avoid Notes lol..( and the second Penta a 4th or 5th up that gives you the 6th Note -still no avoids).
Seriously though If the Melodic Minor can yield some cool Inside voicings I may look into it but I have a Progressive System of Inside to outside with Modes and Pentas and Vertical Arps which I just need to take further.
The type of basic stuff I am mentioning is for example playing over an Amajor 7th ...but substitute
the C#minor Arps AND the associated minor Pentas and you ( even experienced improvisers who know this ) get a darker ' feel ' and are attacking the Amajor 7th more than normal...and will get a feel for where Benson is coming from.
The Chords are obviously grouped together and very basic' synonyms ' or subs but when you target the Minor you get a different flavor IMO.
And if you outline Vof the minor or ii of the minor
Versus ii of the Major 7th you getreally different Flavors but you will get Chromatic Passing Tones..obviously more from the Minor Region.
Specifically all just over Amajor 7th Region..but adding a sub and a secondary linear Function - and you have to be nimble obviously to not go ugly on a Major 7th Chord.
But as ALWAYS Arps and Sub Arps and Pentatonics are MUCH more focused than 7 Note Scales - something no one ever said before regarding CST did they ?
Specifically I put together a Db7 to Db7/11 vamp which then dropped down into a Cminor7 Dminor 7 vamp ( with a third voicing ) so the Cminor part was very close to the opening chords of ( Heard it through the Grapevine - Marvin Gaye version ).
Both contained voicings on Guitar that are more Modern kinda Steely Dan- ish but more ' Urban '.
THEN remembering those chords in my mind I solo'd over them .
Players who are oversaturated by Jazz would think of an Altered Dominant resolving downward chromatically BUT as a Writer we want two KEYS a semitone apart so we don't want the Db to be an Altered Dominant we want it to be heard as a I 7 Chord in this case going to a I7/11 or a IV Chord then dropping into the Minor Key a half step down Cminor.Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-05-2018 at 11:44 AM.
-
I don't understand your terminology Originally Posted by Robertkoa
What is T7 ?
What is secondary linear function ?
-
Earlier in Thread T7- is Tritone Sub ..
You have T7 and T7 alt and some Jazz Theorists have said that ANY two chords a b5th apart can substitute for each other..so I am calling it T7 and naming the quality - with the understanding that it's built on the#I of the Destination Chord.
Unless there's a better way?
Secondary Linear Material - scales or patterns or Arps from the Region of the Substitute for the Original Chord.Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-30-2017 at 03:59 PM.
-
I thought you were talking about playing over a G7 to Cm, more or less. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Db7 puts you in what I think of as altered dom territory. Db F Ab B. From the point of view of G7, that's #11 and b9. And those two notes are in Db pentatonic as wel.
If that's not it, I have misunderstood. I do routinely have difficulty with the terminology. I find it easiest when people pick a key and post the specific chord names/notes - to illustrate the point.
Reply With Quote
There will be another you changes
Today, 02:06 AM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions