Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

[christianm77]

Well TBH, if you have mastered the basic diatonic options, the easiest way to access the mot useful mel min modes is:

On m6 hear 7
On 7 hear #11
On 7b9b13 (minor key dominant) hear b5 (same note innit)
On m7b5 hear 9
On maj7 hear #5

[bako]

Minor Sounds

Major
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 // 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 // 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 // 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Melodic Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 // 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7 // 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Harmonic Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 // 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 // 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Harmonic Major
1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7 // 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7

Brightest To Darkest (subjective)

minor major 7:

1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

minor 7

1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

minor 7th b5

1 2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

If so inclined, one could also make a case for full diminished and diminished major 7 being part of this
continuum of minor sounds.

For me, looking at scales from a harmonic perspective has always been about assimilating intervals.
Scales offer a wide variety of combinations (note collections) contextualized in relation to the different
chord families, chord qualities.

A similar knowledge base could as easily be assembled by adding one or more intervals to each basic
7th structure at a time. Micro and macro views of the same stuffs, sets and subsets.

[rpjazzguitar]

I was thinking about a series of posts in another forum. One of them as I recall suggested studying a long series of juxatoposed triad pairs, with the resulting hexatonics then juxatoposed against different bass notes.

Melodic minor is closer to earth than that.

But, mel min is still some work. Each mode has its own usages.

Like a lot of things, I learned them haphazardly. I haven't had to teach them and I'm not sure how to best go about it.

Is it helpful, for example, to spend much time thinking that Am7b5 and Balt are both Cmelmin? Does that help you with usage? Would you being with C mel min and progress to Am7b5 and Balt?

Or, would you start with Balt, noticing that both 5s and 9s are altered in both directions. And learn to find that sound?

And, later play an Am7 scale (meaning natural minor) and flat the 5? And learn where that sound is on the fretboard?

Maybe it would be better to simply take one song at a time, one chord at a time, try all 12 notes and see which ones you like.

I really don't know which would be better -- and for which student.

I guess I like discussing this, seeing as how many posts I've written. But for the teaching room, I'd probably be spending more time on making sure every note was in the pocket rhythmically.

[rpjazzguitar]

Right, me too, but that's the whole point of learning melodic minor completely in its own right : all of the arps/positions etc...

... because once you know them, you can apply them in almost endless ways.

I personally think referencing altered chord tones from major/mixolydian perspective is the long way around. I think most keyboardists and horn players use melodic minor to teach themselves altered. Eventually you can see it both ways, but I don't know if that's necessarily the starting point. I actually agree that the other way would probably take forever..

I came to being interested in altered sounds after hearing b9 mentioned by a teacher.

The first one I recall working on was b9 on dominant. After a while, I could hear it clearly and it found its way into my playing. Next was #11, then #9 and I still work on #5. There you have it. Altered 5s and 9s in any combination. I'm not sure what it would look like to write out the names for all the combinations, but I suspect it would be a long list of scale and mode names.

[bako]

Trick question:

What dominant scale has #9,11, b5, 5, b7?

[christianm77]

Trick question:

What dominant scale has #9,11, b5, 5, b7?

Heh;

but more usefully and historically

11 b13 b7 #9

ask Ellington

[christianm77]

Also

b9 9 11 5 b7

Bird liked that. See Confirmation.

[Jonah]

F# on G7b9 is the best bit. Barry Harris identifies it as a positive feature of the tritone sub dominant scale.

There was a thread about Wes where this F# was discussed...

I like one the ideas that was offered... that he thought ii-v's as IV... and Bmaj is a tritone sub for a F (IV) in C major.

As per Barry Harris... do I understand correctly that he treats that as part or Db dom scale? I see that if we start it from B (=Cb) we can have even Bmaj7 chord there?

[christianm77]

There was a thread about Wes where this F# was discussed...

I like one the ideas that was offered... that he thought ii-v's as IV... and Bmaj is a tritone sub for a F (IV) in C major.

As per Barry Harris... do I understand correctly that he treats that as part or Db dom scale? I see that if we start it from B (=Cb) we can have even Bmaj7 chord there?

Correct.

[Reg]

Yea... you should be aware of what your implying. Just because your not aware of or don't understand, or don't hear something... doesn't mean it's not going on.

I'm not saying anything is wrong etc... but I am saying.... there are differences that result from how one chooses to organize or uses as references and relationships when playing music...

When you play something and embellish something... the notes you choose etc... have implications. Many musicians don't really hear or understand the differences. And that results in a style of performance... not good or bad, right or wrong, but part of being in a jazz ensemble is being able to hear and interact with what's being performed. You can learn this from trial and error... develop your ear from what sounds right, or from previous performances etc...

It's not like there is that much material to become aware of.

[Vladan]

... Bmaj is a tritone sub for a F (IV) in C major ... As per Barry Harris... do I understand correctly that he treats that as part or Db dom scale? I see that if we start it from B (=Cb) we can have even Bmaj7 chord there?

Correct.

Now it's like I could water flowers with BH stuff, or feed intergalactic passengers.
Don't you think it's too much of a stretch?

EDIT: Maybe if I'd slant my pick?

[Boston Joe]

Yea... you should be aware of what your implying. Just because your not aware of or don't understand, or don't hear something... doesn't mean it's not going on.

I'm not saying anything is wrong etc... but I am saying.... there are differences that result from how one chooses to organize or uses as references and relationships when playing music...

When you play something and embellish something... the notes you choose etc... have implications. Many musicians don't really hear or understand the differences. And that results in a style of performance... not good or bad, right or wrong, but part of being in a jazz ensemble is being able to hear and interact with what's being performed. You can learn this from trial and error... develop your ear from what sounds right, or from previous performances etc...

It's not like there is that much material to become aware of.

Hi Reg,

You use the term "reference" an awful lot, and I must confess that I never really know what you mean by it.

Could you explain a little?

Thanks.

[Robertkoa]

"F# on G7b9 is the best bit. Barry Harris identifies it as a positive feature of the tritone sub dominant scale."





What is a Tritone Subdominant Scale ?

[Vladan]

... What is a Tritone Subdominant Scale lol. ,,, Or who made up the idea of a Subdominant Scale ...?

[pingu]

I find myself dismayed when I read posts which detail dozens or more juxtapositions to create different sounds. How can I deal with dozens, when even a slight variation of something I know well, takes so much work?

I admire players who can do that, but I'm not one of them.

Yeah me too , the great complete lists of things you
can do are too intimidating !

I sometime just pick one thing and play around
with that a bit and see if I like it ...

Works better for me anyway ...

[Boston Joe]

Yeah me too , the great complete lists of things you
can do are too intimidating !

I sometime just pick one thing and play around
with that a bit and see if I like it ...

Works better for me anyway ...

This is pretty much all that's ever worked for me.

[Robertkoa]

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Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post

I find myself dismayed when I read posts which detail dozens or more juxtapositions to create different sounds. How can I deal with dozens, when even a slight variation of something I know well, takes so much work?

I admire players who can do that, but I'm not one of them.


The difference is - when you understand the Generating Mechanism BEHIND the Musical Variations / Ideas you become a Source for them ...rather than just copying them ..

[rpjazzguitar]

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Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post

I find myself dismayed when I read posts which detail dozens or more juxtapositions to create different sounds. How can I deal with dozens, when even a slight variation of something I know well, takes so much work?

I admire players who can do that, but I'm not one of them.


The difference is - when you understand the Generating Mechanism BEHIND the Musical Variations / Ideas you become a Source for them ...rather than just copying them ..

I don't think I understand this ... can you give an example?

[christianm77]

"F# on G7b9 is the best bit. Barry Harris identifies it as a positive feature of the tritone sub dominant scale."





What is a Tritone Subdominant Scale ?

I meant tritone substitute dominant scale. Whoops.

[pauln]

Anyone recognize the intro music (first 12 seconds, sounds like Jaco Pastorius)?

[Reg]

Hey Joe... Yes I use the basic organization of... start with a Reference... then create Relationships with that reference and Develop them

It's just a very basic approach to how i play music. Reference...Relationship....Development (development of relationships based on that reference)

Example.... If I'm playing a vamp in Gmin. , or a chord pattern... or even just a few bars of Gmin, G-7. When I decide to create relationships with that G-7... I make a choice as to what that G-7 implies functionally which creates melodic and harmonic implications... common practice from existing tunes, or even from analysis of those tunes. That would be a reference.

I think everyone has some sort of approach as to how they play, think or feel. I just made the choice back when I was a kid... to have a process that I could have some type of organization which would become internal and natural for me.... instinctive. Almost like plug and play.
Keeps me from getting bogged down etc...

It's not the only approach... but has served me well.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hey Joe... Yes I use the basic organization of... start with a Reference... then create Relationships with that reference and Develop them

It's just a very basic approach to how i play music. Reference...Relationship....Development (development of relationships based on that reference)

Example.... If I'm playing a vamp in Gmin. , or a chord pattern... or even just a few bars of Gmin, G-7. When I decide to create relationships with that G-7... I make a choice as to what that G-7 implies functionally which creates melodic and harmonic implications... common practice from existing tunes, or even from analysis of those tunes. That would be a reference.

I think everyone has some sort of approach as to how they play, think or feel. I just made the choice back when I was a kid... to have a process that I could have some type of organization which would become internal and natural for me.... instinctive. Almost like plug and play.
Keeps me from getting bogged down etc...

It's not the only approach... but has served me well.

This use of the word "reference" was hard for me for a long time as well, because you apply out in so many ways and at so many different levels. In a way that's kind of the point though, isn't it? Jazz as a kind of tessellation. Things which work at basic levels – rhythmically, harmonically whatever – also work at deeper levels.

Basically starting points? "Starting reference", in terms of harmony, would be basic vanilla harmony implied by standard Western common practice and theory. From there, you basically can "sub in" other harmonic ideas based on things like classical borrowing, blues, modal interchange etc. Another layer of organization/reference basically.

Then, you also talk about "reference" in terms of things like rhythm, form , etc. They are all interrelated and part of the same whole, but that aspect isdifficult in the beginning, at least in text form.

BTW, I've really been digging into just playing through your arp inversions over changes the last few weeks. Especially those starting from the third and seventh. Should be obvious how well these cycle together in isolation, but I'd never really worked on it that way. Anyway, yields a lot of really guitarististic phrasing, Which isn't anything like pure positional playing. I guess I'd always assumed that the "Reg Way" was about learning to play anything in one single given position.

That may be an unintended consequence, but at this point, it's more about actually moving around the fretboard itself in more creative and freer ways. Anyway, I'm grateful. I hope all is well and wish you the best for the season and for the new year.

[Boston Joe]

Hey Joe... Yes I use the basic organization of... start with a Reference... then create Relationships with that reference and Develop them

It's just a very basic approach to how i play music. Reference...Relationship....Development (development of relationships based on that reference)

Example.... If I'm playing a vamp in Gmin. , or a chord pattern... or even just a few bars of Gmin, G-7. When I decide to create relationships with that G-7... I make a choice as to what that G-7 implies functionally which creates melodic and harmonic implications... common practice from existing tunes, or even from analysis of those tunes. That would be a reference.

I think everyone has some sort of approach as to how they play, think or feel. I just made the choice back when I was a kid... to have a process that I could have some type of organization which would become internal and natural for me.... instinctive. Almost like plug and play.
Keeps me from getting bogged down etc...

It's not the only approach... but has served me well.

So the reference, for you, is how you're going to treat the chord in relation to the melody and other chords? Is that more or less it? So, just kind of deciding if you're going to treat that G-7 chord as a II chord in F, or a I chord in G minor, or something else? That kind of thing? I definitely do that, although I don't think I've ever explicitly called it out as part of the process.

I guess an alternate approach would be something like Martino, where he'll mash up all sorts of minors together?

[Boston Joe]

BTW, I've really been digging into just playing through your arp inversions over changes the last few weeks.

Matt, Is there a PDF for this or something? Got a link? Or are you working them out yourself?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Matt, Is there a PDF for this or something? Got a link? Or are you working them out yourself?

Yeah. I'll try to find it in a minute .