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Don't know if this works through Tapatalk this way, but I've attached . Let me know. He's linked in several other places recently, but not in one PDF. The two octave thing really helps in my opinion with right hand technique and with rhythmic unity overall. Works a lot better than traditional approaches such as Leavitt etc., for me personally anyway.
Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-22-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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12-22-2017 01:57 PM
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The link gave me a download link but when I clicked on it, I just got some XML and an error message. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Okay. Redid it in the browser. PIA on phone. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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OK - So If in C major the Tsub is Db7... Originally Posted by christianm77
So the Tritone Substitute Dominant Scale is _______ ?
Not familiar with the Term 'Dominant Scale ' is my problem .Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-22-2017 at 04:35 PM.
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The Db dominant scale :-) Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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I refuse to use the M-word
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BTW - here is an example of the kind of bullshit I object to. See if you can work out what in particular raises my hackles:
https://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/downlo...ant-7-tree.pdf
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Db Mixolydian ? Originally Posted by christianm77
Substituting for G mixo ?Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-22-2017 at 05:00 PM.
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Yup that's the badger Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Target acquired. Thank you kind sir. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Key of C:So the Tritone Substitute Dominant Scale is _______ ?
There are some dominant scales that contain some variant of both G7 and Db7.
Mixolydian is not one of these.
Comparing Mixolydian G7 and Mixolydian Db7
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb
D --E--F G--A---B --C
Db Mixo. from a G7 perspective:
b5 b13 b7 7 b9 #9 3
G Mixo. from a Db7 perspective:
b5 b13 b7 7 b9 #9 3
The 4th of each is the ma7 of the other.
In a IIm7 V7 context of each the ma7 of the other also appears in the companion IIm7 chord.
Dm7 (DFAC) G7 .............. C is the ma7 of Db7
Abm7 (AbCbEbGb) Db7..... Gb(F#) is the ma7 of G7
On the surface, it seems like a ma7 might cause problems, but both G and Db mixo. pull strongly towards C or Gb/F#.
Barry Harris and also Christian are both mindful of historic precedence regarding the use of certain sounds.
To me a Tritone Substitute Dominant Scale is any dominant scale on the tritone that resolves
back to a tonic or another chosen target.
I have a habit/inclination to interpret terminology by the literal meaning of the component words.
That said, if someone who regularly uses the phrase "Tritone Substitute Dominant Scale" in
a sentence disagrees, then please clarify for me and others out there listening.
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Repost: (Not sure why it has to be in bold.)
The most efficient chromatic cadence to a major 6th chord
Is the bII mixolydian. It has all the notes that are not C E G A in it, basically. It's a complete enclosure of the C6 chord in scale form.
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb B (Cb)
And resolves thus:
Db - C
Eb - E
F - E
Gb - G
Ab - G or A
Bb - A
B - C
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M-word... Originally Posted by christianm77
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Forgive the rant: Originally Posted by bako
Where I end up with this type of reasoning is here ...
Yes, there's a logical explanation for how you get to F# against G7, but I'm not sure how to utilize the explanation.
But, if you simply run the scales or arps, it's not likely to sound good.
It will only sound good if it is embedded in a strong melodic line.
Of course, that's true for every possible note.
The analysts go through something like this ...
Against G7
R 3 5 7 chord tones.
9 11 13, consonant extensions
b5 #5 b9 #9 common alterations.
nat7 -- comes out of iim7 of the tritone sub.
And there you have it, logical explanations for every possible note.
What do you gain from this? It seems to me that one thing that could be taken away from it is the notion that every possible note works and you need to focus on the lines you play and not worry about the theory.
That can work, but, in fact, some notes are more naturally consonant than others.
So, I return to the idea of chord tones, consonant extensions, more extreme extensions and avoid notes.
"Avoid" means "the note that is really going to have to be in a strong line, or it will sound like a clam".
The theory needs to explain, in a way that's helpful, why, when Wes played F# against G7 it sounded great, and when I do it, it is likely to sound like a clam.
It's way easier to discuss note vs chord. It's way harder to put into words, in instructional materials, what makes a melodic line strong enough to support F# against G7.
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I would say it's a CST thing to eliminate the 4th/7th - it's neat, but its not what what the common practice was before CST came along.
From my link, Aebersold quod:
1. DOM.7th = C7 = C D E F G A Bb C This is the basic dominant 7th sound. Becareful how you treat the 4th tone. Use it asa passing tone.
This is the kind of advice that is flatly contradicted in the study of actual bebop lines where the 4th leaps to the next note and is not resolved by step - which is one of the definition of a passing tone.
(What Aebersold would call a passing tone might refer to a variety of classical melodic dissonances - for now I'll assume he means - will resolve by step.)
Obviously, many people like to think of there being a ii and V in changes playing (in Barry land, we only play on V), so a lot of examples can be understood as 'prolongation' of the changes (i.e. hanging on to the changes a bit longer...) But it still happens. Also in many lines (Wes has many examples) the V chord, so to speak, never appears. That's pretty normal...
Let's go to Lester Young...
So you might handwave or rationalise it, but that G on the D7? Not a passing tone.
Obviously, Aebersold is for beginners, but it's funny how these factoids stick around. (I'm not having a go at Jamie either, please understand, and I think he fully understands the limitations of this type of teaching approach. I mean, the man wrote the Omnibook for crying out loud.)
As far as the F# on G7 being a 'clam' - well it's all about how it resolves in horizontal harmonic space that's important... Jazz is not composed of fixed vertical instincts based on CST, and intelligent CST based players get that (and to be fair Nettles/Graf also points this out.)
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This is the type of analysis I would think this type of analysis defines the CST mindset, for me, relating everything to the chord symbols whether it makes sense or not.
(TBH for me it comically misses the point, BTW, if the point is to understand where Prez's note choices come from, or furthermore what makes this is a great solo.)
Oh! Lady be good - George and Ira Gershwin
Transcription: Gianluca Sala | Sheet music | MuseScore
Now you may say I'm erecting a strawman, perhaps... but some jazz students do think like this...It's not wrong, exactly.... Appropriate for some stuff, but in the case of Prez... Well...
But you can see how may 11ths are unresolved. (Hint, Lester like Wes liked to play IV on V7.)
I prefer, for this music, the conception which Steve Coleman called invisible paths.Last edited by christianm77; 12-22-2017 at 09:33 PM.
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Thanks..that actually sounds pretty good in the Minor Key ...you use the Tritone Mixolydian over the Valt Chord for spicier and if someone is comping the Tritone Sub....you use the original Vmixo for spicier...or Not .And or add the Blue Notes and Pentas from the Tritone Area or Not = more choices. Originally Posted by christianm77
I think this is definitely 'Smart CST '....
Hey Reg...do you pull a lot of Blue Notes from the Tritone Sub Region even if no one is comping it ?
Like on Minor Blues ?
I never would have thought of this on my own..not from this Direction specifically- THAT is the beauty of Theory .
I have a high IQ but my Musical IQ is not so hot lol.( really )
Targeting the Blue Notes of the T7 on my way to the
Minor Temporary Tonic Chord ...
Major is going to be a little trickier I think ...
Merry Chistmas and to All Religions !Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-22-2017 at 06:08 PM.
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I find it easier to use specific notes to make sure I understand something. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
So, we have Gm7 C7 Fmaj. ii V I
The soloist plays on Gb7 while the comping is ib C7.
The blue notes are typically defined as b3 b5 and b9. Which, for Gb7, are A, C and G.
So, if the soloist puts in tritone blue notes, he's playing consonant notes for C7, against C7.
What did I miss?
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Wouldn't it be blue notes in the original key? As I understand are b3 b5 and b7 - Ab Cb and Eb Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Gb7 has all of those
It also has the b9, Gb as well....Last edited by christianm77; 12-22-2017 at 09:37 PM.
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Yeah I see when you map them that way but I wasn't playing them literally so I was targeting the Actual T7 on my way to the Minor Tonic one half step down.
I am more of a chord tone juggler and targeter so the T7 adds in as a Secondary Target Chord on my way down to the Minor Tonic ..I was Playing some of the Mixo but I play vertically more than most .
Also you can eliminate the avoid note(s) by using Subset Pentas...I like the idea of borrowing though..
Seven notes over almost ANY chord is one too many ...part of ' dumb ' CST.
But Subset Pentas can give you 5 Notes and the 6th one is a Penta up a Fourth or a Fifth always
Kinda like Playing Blues ..over the T7.Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-22-2017 at 08:43 PM.
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Shit! Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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I have to say seven Hail Barrys now.
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Might you clarify some of the terminology? Originally Posted by Robertkoa
"targeting the actual T7"
"subset penta" (is this the scale without the 4 and 7?)
"secondary target chord"
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Yes- remember these are not Standard Terminology Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
sorry about that .
OK - I was asking Christian for a Clarification on Tritone Dominant Scale -.
So we got to Db Mixolydian and I was using that to get to a Cminor when I picked up my Guitar..
I used T7 just to mean the Function like instead of V7
Of C you might shorthand T7- the Tritone Sub for the V7 or V7alt.
So Playing the Db Mixolydian I did feel it pull to the Cminor 7 ...the Target Chord....
Then I used the Db Mixolydian ( and related Pentatonics) to target the actual Db Chord as an Arpeggio which still resolved to the Cminor ...so targeting the Tritone Substitution on the way to the Final Target Chord at Phrase End ...I lengthen lines that way ...so I insert another Chord as a Secondary Target
Also - I often convert 7 Note Modes to Pentatonics .So to keep it simple
Cmajor = The I , IV , V Pentatonics and their Relative Minors with a LOT of overlap obviously.
The Relative minor Pentatonics are enharmonic to each Major Pentatonic..
C Major Scale = C [I ] Major Pentatonic F[ IV] Major Pentatonic adds the 4th G [ V] Pentatonic adds the 7th as you said ..
So I call them Subset Pentatonics because they all occur within a Mode...and are Subsets of it.
Any major Scale Plus the #IV Pentatonic = The Chromatic Scale...
So in addition to a 7 Note Scale I think CST should give a few Pentatonics starting with the Ones that are ALL Chord Tones ...
The interesting thing that happened playing my own experiments with the Tritone Dominant Scale was..
I was Playing Blues (after I expanded it a bit ) basically a half step above the Target Minor Chord and there was a Tension Release when I went to the Cminor .
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Thanks for the clarification! Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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