Identifying jazz chords and scales on the fly

**emanresu** · 08-23-2016, 11:35 PM

This has bugged me for 20+ years. I'm gonna go and do something about the lack of that skill.. but now
Can you identyify instantly the functions & the scale&chord steps you hear?

If yes, how did you get the skill?

**Thumpalumpacus** · 08-24-2016, 01:25 AM

I can do it in real time on simpler stuff -- I'm nowhere near there when it comes to jazzin'. But in rock and more especially in the blues I play (which features extensions and moving voices lots of the time), it took practice. Listening to and playing along with songs featuring the skills you want to acquire helps, too.

But there's no replacement for practice.

**Jonah** · 08-24-2016, 04:20 AM

This has bugged me for 20+ years. I'm gonna go and do something about the lack of that skill.. but now
Can you identyify instantly the functions & the scale&chord steps you hear?

Just practice it efficiently... it does not take that much time .
Listen and analyze.

But on the other hand it is ever-developing skill... the more complex musical language is the more detailed your ear is about it

**docsteve** · 08-24-2016, 08:58 AM

I used to play along with the radio. That helped me no end in identifying chord sequences. First, you find out what key the tune is in. Then you learn about the typical progressions.

I did have some formal training before, though. I knew how the intervals were called, what a dominant, subdominant and parallel minor chord were. Therefore I could relate the chords to the underlying structure. It just went hand in hand.

**Nate Miller** · 08-24-2016, 09:40 AM

I had 2 years of ear training and sight singing. The two go hand in hand, so if you aren't sight singing, try adding some of that to what you are doing. Spot check your intonation with an instrument, too.

but singing these notes helps you know them

the other thing that we did was to pick out simple little melodies on our guitar. Tunes we knew from childhood like "Happy Birthday" and "Pop goes the weasel" and stuff like that

**emanresu** · 08-24-2016, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Do you learn tunes by Roman numeral? Instead of by notation, tab or letter? Learning and breaking down a tune by Roman numeral is GREAT training in hearing a tune and identifying it by chord. ATTYA in Ab: VI | II | V | I | IV... and so on.
It trains you to relate the chords in a key section to the tonic chord.

All these things take patience, but if you really want to do it, they might help you to that end. It'll also teach you to think differently, to think functionally. That alone, is worth the effort if you're going to improvise.

Or not.

"or not"? hehe

I've done and keep doing all other stuff you said except the roman numeral's thing. Well, we did it a long time ago in solf class for 4 years but then it didn't seem so vital. Didn't connect so much with the practical playing. I must try that again, thanks for that. Maybe quick chord transcriptions from not so heavy classical genres at first.. yeah.

edit: oops.. i really was thinking about chords that way here..

But there is that other angle of the issue also-
I remembered that good old trick we used to identify intervals - recalled the beginning of some well known tune for a specific interval . So I just toyed with the idea and realized that I had to actually hum a bit of a tune to understand which step the 1st note of the melody is.. I mean after that many years playing & learning songs and what not later, It doesn't just pop up.. Most of the stuff is so darn familiar but they don't get their "places" in the key without a mild effort. For example - can you instantly tell which step the melody of a simple song like "Sweet child o mine" starts with? In 0.5 sec, with confidence, no pondering whatsoever? Without touching an instrument even.. I couldn't. Gotta find ways to learn it cleverly.. or else!

And another tricky thing - I couldn't sing the 5th step of ionian against II min chord when randomly moving it around the keys. Yet it is so so unique sounding combo. Seems another part of the same problem. Eh, and I thought I was kinda nearing the chill fun and games times of my musical doings.

**targuit** · 08-24-2016, 12:46 PM

I think learning to "hear the changes" and understand the chord functions intuitively is based upon time on the instrument, studying 'formal theory', and specifically learning jazz tunes very well, including analysis if that is your thing or if it does not come to you intuitively.

All music has certain fundamental chords and intervals associated with scales, though I would never recommend getting caught up in scales per se, but rather thinking of melody notes and chords in relation to the tone centers of the song. Others may suggest something different, but that is the fastest way imo to assimilate the material and acquire the skill to hear it in your head and play in on your guitar.

I also agree that working at first with songs that you quite familiar with is a good approach.

**jordanklemons** · 08-24-2016, 01:51 PM

The ear, just like anything else, is a muscle and will get stronger the more you exercise it. Some people will say to do ear training, others will say learn tunes... but to me that's like telling someone treadmill vs weights. All are great as long as you really commit to doing it and to pushing yourself. The act of being on a treadmill is not what causes one to lose weight or develop a stronger cardio vascular system. It's the act of really pushing oneself while being on the treadmill.

In general, the piano players, horn players, and singers I've met and worked with have tended to have more trained ears than guitar players. My theory is that on the piano (and sort of on the horn, as far as I understand it), if you want middle C, you hit ONE button and you get that sound. It's like a rat hitting a button and getting a piece of cheese. Over enough time, they just unconsciously learn to associate that button with that sound. On guitar, we don't have that. We have like 4 or 5 places we can play middle C. So it's harder to learn to associate the cheese button like the rat because we have different buttons and they're all spread around throughout the room.

Singers seem to be great with this stuff as well, and my guess being that they generally study solfeggi.

For me, I'd been working on my ear and was pretty decent with it until I was required to study and use solfeggi. It took some adjusting on my part, but once I went through the process... it helped significantly. Both solfeggi and having physical movements that I attributed to each note (not the traditional hand gestures... but still, physical movements nonetheless).

It's helped me learn to identify chord tones, scale tones, melodies, chord progressions, etc. It's not perfect, and I do NOT have perfect pitch. But it definitely strengthened my ear muscle significantly.

If you're looking for chord progressions... start focusing in on the bass line. When you learn a tune, play SLOWLY through the bass movement over and over and over listening to tensions and resolutions. Maybe try singing along with it, especially with solfeggi if you can. When you're listening to an actual song, see how long through the song you can make it focused ONLY on the bass player, try not to notice what anyone else is doing. Just exercise that muscle. Don't worry about identifying anything. Just focus on hearing it. Being able to pick it out from the mix and stay with it. Over time, the ability to pick out the bass, and the bass line ear training you do will naturally collide into each other and it will be easier to identify where the progression is going. That's one way. There are countless.

**Jonah** · 08-24-2016, 02:57 PM

The ear, just like anything else, is a muscle and will get stronger the more you exercise it.

Jordan

with all respect musical hearing has nothing to do with muscles... it's like distinguishing colourr has nothing to do with biological seeing...

it's completely cultural thing...

**jordanklemons** · 08-24-2016, 03:04 PM

I can wiggle my ears. There's gotta be muscles in there somewhere.

**Jonah** · 08-24-2016, 04:49 PM

I can wiggle my ears. There's gotta be muscles in there somewhere.

I am sure there are...

but I doubt wiggling can help musical hearing)))

To be serious I just think people often mistake biological hearing with musical...

biolagical ear is just the tool...

Imagine you use a ruler... it will not tell you anything but number of inches... it is your ability to interprete information that gives you ability to to see behind these figures different measures that can effect the constructional process or whatever...

And this ability comes from culture - in a broad sence - culture as spiritual mental social individual enviroment...

Same thing with music... sound we hear physically is just a sound...
but its qualities (including pitch too) we identify because we belong to certain culture

I will dare say even that we even do not hear anything before we interprete it...

Because there's no entity without qualities... and qualities is product of our culture.

For me it's very simple: biology is one system of analyzing things, neurolgy is another, and artistic perception is different from both

**jordanklemons** · 08-24-2016, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I am sure there are...

but I doubt wiggling can help musical hearing)))

To be serious I just think people often mistake biological hearing with musical...

biolagical ear is just the tool...

Imagine you use a ruler... it will not tell you anything but number of inches... it is your ability to interprete information that gives you ability to to see behind these figures different measures that can effect the constructional process or whatever...

And this ability comes from culture - in a broad sence - culture as spiritual mental social individual enviroment...

Same thing with music... sound we hear physically is just a sound...
but its qualities (including pitch too) we identify because we belong to certain culture

I will dare say even that we even do not hear anything before we interprete it...

Because there's no entity without qualities... and qualities is product of our culture.

For me it's very simple: biology is one system of analyzing things, neurolgy is another, and artistic perception is different from both

Ok... well I have no clue what we're talking about anymore... and I already offered a recommendation to the OP... So, all you.

**jordanklemons** · 08-24-2016, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

The ear, like other parts of your body, can indeed move but it doesn't necessarily mean there's a muscle in it. I've got a part of my body that technically has no muscles in it but it's gotten me into trouble numerous times because it's proven to be stronger than anything else, including my will. And it's ALWAYS needing to be exercised.
(Hint: it's not my ears)

David

Hahaha... picking up on jokes and humor is also a muscle. Nice to know I'm not the only one doing joke curls in my apartment.
<<flexes in front of mirror>>

**Jonah** · 08-24-2016, 05:44 PM

Maybe what Jordan was saying was metaphorical

Maybe... and I just missed that metaphorical sence due to the face English is not my native. Then I appologize...
In my native language in this context it is hard to consider muscle as something metaphoricle.

Nevertheless I think I made some sence too...

and my point was not the arguement at all but conversation.

**Jonah** · 08-24-2016, 05:46 PM

Ok... well I have no clue what we're talking about anymore...

bad for me))

and I already offered a recommendation to the OP... So, all you.

No problem for me it was just this 'muscle' that - obviously by my mistake - caught me here... on the rest of your advice I generally agree with you...

cheers

**jordanklemons** · 08-25-2016, 02:05 PM

All good.

**Boston Joe** · 08-25-2016, 02:15 PM

I just picked up an ear training app called "Ear Trainer" (I bet they were up all night thinking of that name). It's pretty good. You can do intervals, triads, 6th and 7th chords, scales, and a few other other things. I've discovered that I'm not so good at identifying 6 and m7 chords. I am, however, pretty darn good at identifying scales.

Give me a couple of months with this, and hopefully I'll be really good at all of it.

**Stevebol** · 08-25-2016, 07:07 PM

I got a guitar and learned to tune it. Got an Alfred book of chords. It was all on one page. Started playing along to records, TV, radio, anything. Scales are easy. There are plenty of ways to pick them up.
There isn't much to playing by ear. It becomes instinctive. So does hearing intervals.

**jordanklemons** · 08-25-2016, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I just picked up an ear training app called "Ear Trainer" (I bet they were up all night thinking of that name). It's pretty good. You can do intervals, triads, 6th and 7th chords, scales, and a few other other things. I've discovered that I'm not so good at identifying 6 and m7 chords. I am, however, pretty darn good at identifying scales.

Give me a couple of months with this, and hopefully I'll be really good at all of it.

Ultimate Ear Trainer and Harmony Cloud are also both great ear training apps. Harmony Cloud was a little pricey, but worth it. It does so much.

**pingu** · 08-25-2016, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

I got a guitar and learned to tune it. Got an Alfred book of chords. It was all on one page. Started playing along to records, TV, radio, anything. Scales are easy. There are plenty of ways to pick them up.
There isn't much to playing by ear. It becomes instinctive. So does hearing intervals.

I think you're right , sooner or later you've got to
Do that 'work' to get it into your ears ...
At least I had/have to

Hear it
Sing it
Play it

**pingu** · 08-25-2016, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

....

(if I might get your meaning Jordan...), but rather maybe he should have said "The use of repeated ordered aural stimuli, when triggered in an orderly, disciplined and progressive manner leads to the reenforcement of neural pathways that make for a stronger feedback mechanism between the parts of the brain that recognize, act upon and initiate responses based on an overall scheme of logical constructs like musical theory" ...that's the way I see it being like a muscle.

David

That's a great mouthful David !

To question that analysis which I find a bit
Too mechanistic and learned ..
A sustained minor tonality is intrinsically a
More sad , serious , darker feeling
Than a big major tonality , happy , triumphal
Joyous etc to all cultures isn't it ?

Ie in some ways music is a universal emotional language ... Or mayby not ?

**Hupia** · 08-25-2016, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

Ultimate Ear Trainer and Harmony Cloud are also both great ear training apps. Harmony Cloud was a little pricey, but worth it. It does so much.

I came here to recommend Harmony Cloud as well. I haven't regretted buying it so far, and I've seen a lot of progress pretty quickly. I started with the very basics, so it's exciting that there's so many features to keep training on new sounds/inversions/progressions etc.

**Binyomin** · 08-25-2016, 09:12 PM

My ambition at the moment is to recognize the common chord progressions. I think I always know when I am hearing a blues, or rhythm changes, or Indiana changes, or Sweet Georgia Brown changes. I would like that list to be longer and I think it would help for hearing smaller pieces.

**Binyomin** · 08-25-2016, 09:35 PM

My ambition at the moment is to recognize the common chord progressions. I think I always know when I am hearing a blues, or rhythm changes, or Indiana changes, or Sweet Georgia Brown changes. I would like that list to be longer and I think it would help for hearing smaller pieces.