Identifying jazz chords and scales on the fly

**Thumpalumpacus** · 08-26-2016, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

The ear, like other parts of your body, can indeed move but it doesn't necessarily mean there's a muscle in it. I've got a part of my body that technically has no muscles in it but it's gotten me into trouble numerous times because it's proven to be stronger than anything else, including my will. And it's ALWAYS needing to be exercised.
(Hint: it's not my ears)

David

These go to eleven, bloke.

So to speak, of course. Don't point at it, don't even look at it.

**jovialspoon** · 08-26-2016, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by Binyomin

My ambition at the moment is to recognize the common chord progressions. I think I always know when I am hearing a blues, or rhythm changes, or Indiana changes, or Sweet Georgia Brown changes. I would like that list to be longer and I think it would help for hearing smaller pieces.

If you can recognize familiar changes like those, you may already be able to recognize several more. Like the oft-used descending bass pattern under a minor chord – think ‘This Masquerade’ or (please forgive me) ‘Stairway to Heaven’. And the ‘James Bond’ style Gm / Gm#5 / Gm6. These pop up all over the place.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 08-26-2016, 03:00 AM

There'll be no Stairway in here, mister.

**jovialspoon** · 08-26-2016, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

There'll be no Stairway in here, mister.

I know, I know. I feel so, you know, dirty.

**jordanklemons** · 08-26-2016, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hupia

I came here to recommend Harmony Cloud as well. I haven't regretted buying it so far, and I've seen a lot of progress pretty quickly. I started with the very basics, so it's exciting that there's so many features to keep training on new sounds/inversions/progressions etc.

Yeah, I've had a similar experience. I actually used to study with the guy who created that app (the music guy, not the computer guy). I seriously don't think I've ever met another human whose ears were as big and scary impressive as this guys. He could pick out so much detail it was unreal. Not in a perfect pitch sort of way... just in the ability to hear anything and analyze and break it down instantaneously.

I actually got to play with the app with him before it was released, when it was still just an algorithm on his iPad. He had these gun games where he would just turn on the random progression generator and make you improvise over it without being able to look at the screen... just by listening. It was tough, but a lot of fun.

But I did the same thing you did when I bought it. I went right to the very basics. I think I just started with I IV V root position. Surprising how much more it tripped me up than I expected. My goal was perfect recognition with zero latency. Which I was close to. But not as close as I'd thought. Then I added in the inversions. I need to get back to it. Was trying to step myself up one rung at a time.

Ultimate Ear Trainer is really cool too. More for learning to identify individual pitches quickly and accurately. No chords or intervals. Sort of the Charlie Banacos type of ear training... from the stories I've heard. I think I heard that one of his old students developed that app. Not sure though.

**emanresu** · 08-26-2016, 04:08 PM

Thanks for that Cloud hint.

**jordanklemons** · 08-26-2016, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Thanks for that Cloud hint.

If you do a search in youtube for harmony cloud, you'll find some videos of Stefon showing the app, how it works, and how it can be used during practice. Hopefully, he'll be uploading more videos the longer the app is out there being used. But there's some cool ones worth checking out.

**Hupia** · 08-26-2016, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

Yeah, I've had a similar experience. I actually used to study with the guy who created that app (the music guy, not the computer guy). I seriously don't think I've ever met another human whose ears were as big and scary impressive as this guys. He could pick out so much detail it was unreal. Not in a perfect pitch sort of way... just in the ability to hear anything and analyze and break it down instantaneously.

I actually got to play with the app with him before it was released, when it was still just an algorithm on his iPad. He had these gun games where he would just turn on the random progression generator and make you improvise over it without being able to look at the screen... just by listening. It was tough, but a lot of fun.

But I did the same thing you did when I bought it. I went right to the very basics. I think I just started with I IV V root position. Surprising how much more it tripped me up than I expected. My goal was perfect recognition with zero latency. Which I was close to. But not as close as I'd thought. Then I added in the inversions. I need to get back to it. Was trying to step myself up one rung at a time.

Ultimate Ear Trainer is really cool too. More for learning to identify individual pitches quickly and accurately. No chords or intervals. Sort of the Charlie Banacos type of ear training... from the stories I've heard. I think I heard that one of his old students developed that app. Not sure though.

That's awesome! Yeah, I've seen some of those videos with Stefon playing by ear and it's scary but it was also really inspiring. It's like... well, I hear a chord and I know what to whistle over it... but not what to play on guitar... So of course knowing the fretboard but also knowing what's in that chord etc are steps to getting there.

Still going pretty slow... one key per day and improving. Then will add inversions and more progressions etc, but I think I have to take it slow... I've never done ear training classes or anything before.

I'll check out that other app at some point too.. Don't want to take on too much but it sounds like a good thing to do.

**emanresu** · 08-29-2016, 04:59 PM

Getting 0.01% better every day but whatever... Found out that "Don't speak" starts with the 4th step of a min chord also. 6th minor though. But nice to know.

Btw. which step of the scale&chord is the 1st long note of the trombone in this amazing tune:

You have 0.5 seconds or it wont count

!

**Binyomin** · 08-29-2016, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by jovialspoon

If you can recognize familiar changes like those, you may already be able to recognize several more. Like the oft-used descending bass pattern under a minor chord – think ‘This Masquerade’ or (please forgive me) ‘Stairway to Heaven’. And the ‘James Bond’ style Gm / Gm#5 / Gm6. These pop up all over the place.

Come to think of it, there is also what Wikipedia calls the "Ragtime Progression": Alice's Restaurant, Her Majesty by the Beatles, Ja-Da/Doxy, Hot Tamales by Robert Johnson. It is hard to imagine missing Cherokee also.

**jordanklemons** · 08-30-2016, 01:43 AM

There's already videos of Stefon showing off Harmony Cloud on youtube. Thought I'd film a quick demo of ultimate ear trainer before bed. I'm off to sleep.

**christianm77** · 08-30-2016, 05:59 AM

It's my belief that ear training is best focussed around comprehensible input. You learn music like a language, so that means learning to identify 'sentences' including commonplace everyday phrases and idioms. That means listening to, transcribing and reading a lot of music.

I find ear training apps and products can help (I use Bruce Arnold's stuff) with this. It's not an either or....

**Boston Joe** · 08-30-2016, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

It's my belief that ear training is best focussed around comprehensible input. You learn music like a language, so that means learning to identify 'sentences' including commonplace everyday phrases and idioms. That means listening to, transcribing and reading a lot of music.

I find ear training apps and products can help (I use Bruce Arnold's stuff) with this. It's not an either or....

The one I'm using has a section where you can identify chord progressions. I haven't worked up to it yet. I'm trying to go slowly. Even if I get through a lot of exercises in a session, I'll repeat them the next day. Maybe next week, I'll start a little further down the list, but my goal is to be able to ID them 100% accurately on the first hearing.

(And I think even when I advance more, I'll still go back and do the initial exercises periodically. This stuff can atrophy.)

**christianm77** · 08-30-2016, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

The one I'm using has a section where you can identify chord progressions. I haven't worked up to it yet. I'm trying to go slowly. Even if I get through a lot of exercises in a session, I'll repeat them the next day. Maybe next week, I'll start a little further down the list, but my goal is to be able to ID them 100% accurately on the first hearing.

(And I think even when I advance more, I'll still go back and do the initial exercises periodically. This stuff can atrophy.)

Just to be a bit of Devil's Advocate .... why not just learn tunes? That way you have something you can use on gigs instead of simply an exercise.

You can do it on the train. Check your work with the iRealB... All can be done on your phone.

**emanresu** · 08-30-2016, 12:56 PM

Random ear training does different things than familiar tunes. Cant tell exactly what but I feel it.. in my brains

**christianm77** · 08-30-2016, 01:09 PM

What about unfamiliar tunes?

**Boston Joe** · 08-30-2016, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Just to be a bit of Devil's Advocate .... why not just learn tunes? That way you have something you can use on gigs instead of simply an exercise.

You can do it on the train. Check your work with the iRealB... All can be done on your phone.

I do that as well, but I'm not very good at it. I'm hoping the one will inform the other. I haven't gotten to progressions on the app yet. I'm still working with identifying 6th and 7th chords.

**emanresu** · 08-30-2016, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What about unfamiliar tunes?

It takes some time to get the idea what is going on there and then it's familiar already, kinda. And digging more into it is looping the same material. With all kinds of apps, you can target something very specific (without the help of anticipation) and can measure the improvement. Scientifically. It sure is not enough ever of course. I mean using some app and become a jazz-yoda like that. That ain't gonna happen. I tried

**grahambop** · 08-30-2016, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Getting 0.01% better every day but whatever... Found out that "Don't speak" starts with the 4th step of a min chord also. 6th minor though. But nice to know.

Btw. which step of the scale&chord is the 1st long note of the trombone in this amazing tune:

You have 0.5 seconds or it wont count

!

The initial short note is the 4th of the opening key. The second (long) note is the 5th.

However it sounds as if there is an implied chord change happening at the same time, i.e. from I minor to IV minor. So in relation to the second chord (IV minor from the opening key), those 2 notes are the tonic and the 2nd, respectively.

Compared to transcribing bebop solos, this is easy.

**emanresu** · 08-30-2016, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Compared to transcribing bebop solos, this is easy.

Sure. I just had the idea of using well known and easy tunes as reference to steps. It's a bit frustrating that even solid simple ones need a bit of pondering.

**grahambop** · 08-31-2016, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Sure. I just had the idea of using well known and easy tunes as reference to steps. It's a bit frustrating that even solid simple ones need a bit of pondering.

I only really know one way of doing this stuff, I listen for the lowest note to get the basic key or chord, then get the interval from that to the note in question. Of course it's a bit harder if the lowest note is not the root, in which case you have to listen to the other notes in the chord to get the context. But I usually can tell the 3rd quite easily, and deduce the root from that.

It's a bit like learning to ride a bike, you just have to keep doing it over and over then suddenly one day it gets much easier. Transcribing jazz solos is probably the most intensive way of getting through this process, at least it worked that way for me.

Actually your example wasn't all that simple, because the chord at the beginning was a bit nebulous with all those strings, took me a while to 'fix' the root.

**grahambop** · 08-31-2016, 04:15 AM

I would add, that eventually you learn to identify the intervals almost immediately, after all there are only 12 possibilities. If I can't get it immediately, I mentally 'sing' the root then the note in question, I can always get the interval that way.

**christianm77** · 08-31-2016, 06:04 PM

Don't learn intervals learn solfege

**christianm77** · 09-01-2016, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, to me, they are one in the same. I identify intervals in different ways, and they serve their purpose.
Individual intervals by number really helped me to tie spacial relationships with melody and harmony. Solfege helped me to sing lines with that knowledge. But everyone learns differently, right?
David

Everyone learns differently. However, some approaches are more effective than others. I don't mean to be nasty, but there's a lot of not particularly helpful advice on this thread, which I would have given myself 10 years ago. I don't say these things randomly or for effect - they are based on my own experience and the advice of much better musicians than myself.

So - intervallic and scale position/solfege training. They are not the same thing. Example.

Intervallic hearing - the gap between the notes C and A is a major sixth. I remember the first two notes of Days of Wine and Roses. Boom. One mark in your Aural test.

In the real world - we need scale position hearing - let's take those two notes in keys around the cycle.

1 and 6 in C major
5 and 3 in F Major
2 and 7 in Bb major
....
#4 and #2 in Gb major
....
4 and 2 in G major

And so on and so forth..... Not to mention the minor keys.

Try it - these two notes will sounds and feel completely different in each context, even though intervallically, they are the same... Only one of them sounds like Days of Wine and Roses.

This is another reason why the first interval of the song thing doesn't work for anything other than aural tests in exams where they play you an interval in isolation without any tonal context. It's a cheat, advice given to get students through the test. I would do the same if I had to, but it's not real ear training.

I draw this conclusion from advice given to me by people I know and work with who have great musicianship (transcribing, sight singing, playing melodies perfectly and so on.) In specialist music schools and conservatoires, this 1,000 year old system is still taught. There's a reason for this.

I spent years trying to do things intervallically alone because that's what was on the exams I was doing etc. Now I've focussed on scale position/solfege it does seem to reaping results. I can hear the melodies distinctly in my head when I look at music. Not always, but often. It's quite strange to come to this in my late thirties - this isn't something I could do before, although it's common among my peers.

Now I'm not say that the intervallic approach is completely useless, but I think that scale position work is the bedrock of aural musicianship.

I could go on, but I doubt I will convince anyone that hasn't already. :-)

**emanresu** · 09-01-2016, 09:14 AM

I must somewhat agree - just knowing how clean intervals sound is just scratching the surface. And even what the OP was, thats again surely not enough when it comes to helping our practical playing.

But there are so many different things to do to get the whole bundle. We can pick out a few that will be the most effective but thats not a good reason to drop plain interval recognition exercise. Or any other little extra skillie. We do this thing for many decades.