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  1. #1

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    Hi, first of all I want to share with you this fantastic Joe Pass video I found on youtube:



    I wanted to play it so I checked the RealBook and also an arrangement I got from some book. So I found that the arranger did invert some chords order. From Am7b5 D13 into D13 Am7b5. Is this frequently done? How does it work? Can someone explain?

    Thank you

    Satin Doll substitution question-img_2549-jpgSatin Doll substitution question-img_2550-jpg

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    It sounds good, so that's how it works But also it's a chord melody arrangement. You often take liberties from what is written on the page because you are more concerned with supporting the melody, good voice leading, and making it work on guitar. Some jazz musicians view the ii and the V as being basically one and the same. In fact if you analyze the notes in Am7b5 - A-C-Eb-G you could reinterpret those as being a D7susb9. From what I can see of it, the chord melody arrangement is a good one, use it.

  4. #3
    Thank you Guitarzen. What did you look at to check if the arrangement is a good one? (I had to play it to check if it was sounding good to me)

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by p4chuss2 View Post
    ... D13 Am7b5... How does it work?
    On various levels, I think:

    a) The chord following the Am7b5 is a chord of D. It's Db, but it's still D, and an Abm appears in front of it, but it's still D (the ii in this kind of ii V is really not much more than ornamentation for the V). So you can think of it as a kind of ii V (well, vi II, same thingie).
    b) But don't forget to look at the bass line. The D is held in that bar (not actually held, but not replaced by another bass note, which is the same as held in terms of harmony), so that Am7b5 could be D13b9 (including a sus), so you could look at the progression as falling semitones, D - Db - C.
    c) But (you'll like this) that Db9#11 works analysed as a tritone sub for G as well (the #11 is a dead giveaway, it's a b5 under another name).

  6. #5

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    No argument with any of the above, I just wanted to point out the liberty taken with the melody. I notice the arranger has quite deliberately put a G on top of the Db7 chord in place of the Ab melody note in the original. Db9#11 is certainly a juicy chord, but I personally wouldn't alter a melody in order to use it.
    Just my personal view, I don't feel too strongly about it. Any other opinions on that?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by p4chuss2 View Post
    Thank you Guitarzen. What did you look at to check if the arrangement is a good one? (I had to play it to check if it was sounding good to me)
    I played it too And I can tell it's not one of those lame newbie arrangements that you see most of the time in chord melody arrangement books. I think the choice of chord voicings and use of syncopation and bass lines are well done and this arrangement actually looks useable at a gig.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    Just my personal view, I don't feel too strongly about it. Any other opinions on that?
    I think he is altering and ornamenting the melody no more than any good jazz player would when playing the head. I think any interpretation that sticks to strictly to a chart in say the Realbook is taking the wrong approach, especially considering the numerous errors in said book.

    Now when I make arrangements, I do stay very close to the chart, but that is because I lack creativity! BTW p4chuss, what book is this arrangement out of? Who did it?

  8. #7

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    I think that if you play the changes backwards you get "Satan Doll".




  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by p4chuss2 View Post
    Hi, first of all I want to share with you this fantastic Joe Pass video I found on youtube:


    Sorry for off topic: On 00:39 is the evidence, that Joe Pass was a human being... :-)

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by redwater View Post
    ... the evidence, that Joe Pass was a human being...
    It's decades since I listened to him a lot, but as I remember he was often a bit sloppy. Many jazz guitar greats of more or less that era were, Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel (especially)... And of course that's apart from the fact that making mistakes sometimes is inevitable if you take risks, which I think most of us would consider A Good Thing in general in jazz.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen View Post
    I think he is altering and ornamenting the melody no more than any good jazz player would when playing the head. I think any interpretation that sticks to strictly to a chart in say the Realbook is taking the wrong approach, especially considering the numerous errors in said book.
    I was simply making a distinction between melody and interpretation. (Errors in the Real Book are a different issue.)
    It's not about sticking to a "chart" in that sense (ie chord sequence) but playing a melody correctly.

    This arrangement seemed to be chord-melody treatment of the head, with some interesting reharmonisations. Of course, melodies are altered or ornamented in improvisation, but I personally feel it's kind of cheating to change the melody when playing the head (I mean change the pitches in order to get a nice chord, not shift the timing around, which is fair game).
    For me, the challenge of chord-melody is to preserve the tune, as a fixed reference point. (The "cantus firmus" in classical terms ). What you do with the chords and bassline is the proper area for creativity (before a solo, of course, in which anything goes).
    I guess I'd be OK with it if I thought the arrangement improved the melody, but I think that G (in place of the Ab) is clunky - it sounds wrong. Just my $0.02. It seems like the melody is being spoiled because the arranger wants to put in a cool bII lydian dominant chord with the #11 on top.
    Last edited by JonR; 06-01-2013 at 12:18 PM.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    For me, the challenge of chord-melody is to preserve the tune, as a fixed reference point. (The "cantus firmus" in classical terms ). What you do with the chords and bassline is the proper area for creativity (before a solo, of course, in which anything goes).
    Oh, no, can't go along with that, not at all. The only "requirement" is that the tune be recognizable, and perhaps not even that. It's well known that Cole Porter hated Frank Sinatra's versions of his songs for taking too many liberties, surely a proper jazz musician must be allowed at least as must freedom as Sinatra claimed for himself.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss View Post
    Oh, no, can't go along with that, not at all. The only "requirement" is that the tune be recognizable, and perhaps not even that. It's well known that Cole Porter hated Frank Sinatra's versions of his songs for taking too many liberties, surely a proper jazz musician must be allowed at least as must freedom as Sinatra claimed for himself.
    Yes, I could feel that objection coming... .., and I agree in principle. (I was thinking of singers, but personally I'd be with Cole Porter against Sinatra any day. Billie Holiday, yes...)
    Let me just say there are deviations that work, and some that don't. This little one was a clunker. IMHO, naturally.
    (And this is only to do with treatments of the theme, of course, not improvisations on it.)

  14. #13

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    I hear the A-7b5 as F7 or F13... lots of ways to analysis... but the simplest is to think or hear the A-7b5 or F7 as sub-dominant sub of either... D7 or A- or the two chords, A-7 to D7, as a chord pattern.

    If your going to play music, especially jazz, don't get hung up on vertically analysis as being only related to the moment of attack...

  15. #14
    This is an arrangement from John C. Purse from the book: Mel Bay Jazz Guitar Standards Chord Melody Solos (Book & CD):Amazon:Books

  16. #15

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    Just because something printed or someone tells you something...well there's a lot of BS in printed version.

    The spelling of chord sequence...

    A-7 to D7
    Ab-7 to Db7
    Cmaj....... that's the original, right, the basic starting reference....

    So the 1st II- V can be used or thought of as a Chord Pattern... either of the chords can be played or used as reference or source for creating relationships...

    So the D13 is that Chord Pattern.... The A-7b5 can be an approach to the Ab-7 or just a development from creating a relationships with the original A-7 to D7 Chord Pattern...

    A-7 to D7 can and does become D7 to A-7... D7, D7sus, A-9, A-11 or a million other variations.

    The logic or guideline of how one chooses to explain or justify usage... would generally start with a reference, then the relationships created and developed would follow that path.

  17. #16

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    Hello p4chuss2 ,

    Sorry for disturbing, I wonder if it's possible to send me exactly the same arrangement of the song?

    I live in Ukraine and I had this one many years ago but lost it and now can't find this arrangement in Internet.

    I'd be very grateful !

    Kind Regards,

    Alex