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Ok. Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. I see where you're coming from.
Contemporary Jazz harmony is catching up with classical harmony from a billion ago (and still has some way to go). I can see why you would be careful with the 5th and 3rd if your playing Jazz stuff from the standard era (my assumption here) but Contemporary Jazz (awful term but it serves it's purpose here) has been playing with such voicings for many years now with Hancock, Towner, Jarrett, Gismonti, Kenny Wheeler, Mike Gibbs, Etc Etc.
I'm not sure if you're into these composers but I think ya might like them with your knowledge (forgive my assumptions again) of Classical music.
The reason for putting B/C instead of Cma7#9#11 is probably to create tension and ambiguity and a little surprise (must have's in a jazz context) and to let a soloist free, to interpret the chord without the harmonic restriction, whilst still retaining it's I function. I have no problem hearing this as a I chord. Some people had a problem with Cma7#11 at one time but they caught up eventually, now it seems to have taken place of a straight I chord on straight ahead jazz gigs.
Also, B/C means a triad with a bass note beneath. The other ....
B
:::
C
is a triad with a triad below it.
They are prescriptive, like a musical info sign.
I just wonder if there's a better way of interpreting that info. Mind you I've been reading charts with these signs for 30 years and i'd limp home dejected if it changed now.
Good discussion here.Last edited by mike walker; 04-12-2011 at 01:28 PM.
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04-12-2011 01:26 PM
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I've played just about everything at one point or another. My issue isn't with the voicing, but with the notation. Two different notations are being conflated into one. But I have no objection to slash chords or polychords -
Originally Posted by mike walker
I just don't want them confused with each other. But again, I have absolutely no problem with the voicings - you should use whatever voicing sounds best. But to use another voicings notation to represent something else is silly to me.
It would be like if someone said, "From now on the word 'blue' will also refer to things that are red, and you just need to know from context." I would have the same objection, "Why not just keep calling blue things 'blue' and red things 'red'? That's what those words are for." It's not a criticism of those colors, but a criticism of the conflation and confusing of terminology.
What, the CMaj7#9#11? I have no problem hearing that as a I chord either, or the essentially equivalent polychord, B/Ctriad. It's a rather tense I chord, but that has it's place. Originally Posted by mike walker
Are you saying that you can hear the slash chord B/C (essentially a CdimMaj7) as a I chord? I would agree that it is often an expansion of tonic harmony, but it is not a I chord. My objection is the treatment of the slash chord B/C (essentially a CdimMaj7) as a I chord and saying that CdimMaj7 and CMaj7#9#11 are essentially the same harmony. (We shouldn't confuse expansion of tonic harmony with being a tonic chord.) If we can hear the CdimMaj7 as a form of CMaj7, then why not FMaj7? That has a C in it too. Why not G13? That has all the notes of CMaj7 in it. Both of those chords could also be used to expand tonic harmony but still not be tonic chords.
We have to go back pretty far to find that, but that is besides the point. My objection wouldn't have been the addition of the Maj7#11 as viable chord viable, but the labeling of it as a m7b5 and just tell people to know the difference from context. Originally Posted by mike walker
I agree 100%. Now I'm confused, because I have been trying to make this distinction for several posts. They are two different things, and the appropriate notation should be used for the appropriate chord and not just use one sign to represent both chords. If you mean a slash chord, write it as a slash chord. If you mean a polychord, write it as a polychord. But if you mean a polychord (obviously the OP's intention) then don't write it as a slash chord and act shocked when people misunderstand your chord. We should not have one symbol that represents two different harmonies - that is a recipe for confusion. Fortunately, we do have a different symbol for that chord. Unfortunately, some are arguing against using it. Originally Posted by mike walker
Peace,
Kevin
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Yes I hear the B/C as a I chord absolutely.
Obviously creating ambiguity is not a new concept. Keeping away from thirds whilst retaining an obvious root movement can lead a listener into a sense of false security EG.... D/G | G/C gives the listener a Maj feeling first, but, as you know, they could be min.
Composers have always played with the overtone series in this way.
So, this could be a reason to use the slash chord instead of the full chord, a little like this progression B/D E/G B/C..... So the E/G chord is a V chord (G13b9) but the b7 has gone.... So the bass movement has a familiar ring to the listener but the chord movement also has a familiar ring (I IV I).
There must have been some misunderstanding along the way regarding Slash and Polychord symbols (who'd have thought it on the net??!!).
I think we're on the same page, but it's good to kick around.
Bestest,
M
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I've studied with a few composers and a few musicologist... I tend to go with the composers for notation... anyway when composing other than those you know, spell out what you mean if there are possible choices... Polychordal harmonies are not standard...Cmaj/Bmaj or Cmaj/Bmaj7...what ever you want... I mean really there are very few problem at gigs... most players know enough to ask if the context or your ears can't cover...What % of tunes even use polychordal or polyharmonies...at least as Bartock, Harris, Ives, Stravinsky, Schoenberg etc...used in composition. Are they really bitonality, tritonality or really functioning as pedals. Anything can be called a Tonic... I guess you can play a numbers game with traditional function and voice-leading labels... but does it serve the purpose of the music or the analysis...
But the choices of what to play over the implied harmonic area is very interesting... I dig most of the choices... Would be very cool to hear and see posts of actual music examples... I'm like stupid busy and am hitting the road next week, but will try and dig up some examples of how and what I would play over examples... Hey Mike good to see your posts again, always dig your playing... Hey I met Michael Gibbs at Berklee and studied with him in NY for a while... great teacher and human being... best RegLast edited by Reg; 04-12-2011 at 04:17 PM.
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Hey Reg, good luck on the road trip! I hope we will contunue to get your posts, the videos are really helpful.
best wishes,
wiz
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Good post as usual, amigo. Originally Posted by Reg
Played with Mike on and off over the years and recorded with him too. Lovely, gentle guy and a great composer. He did an album called 'Big Music' with Sco and Frisell and there are some awesome toons on that album, man.
Been suffering 7 months with an arm injury so had to lay off the computer and Guitar.
Have a great trip, Reg.
Bestest,
M.
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Ah, the King Baby is throwing another tantrum! Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
Jack is my uncle and trust me when I tell you that he his most certainly not 'pouting' that a guy at your skill level is disagreeing with him on the intraweb. Comparing your playing to his is like comparing a child's finger painting to a Rembrandt lol.
I saw you copping the same disrespectful attitude with oneworld. Do you actually think you are on a peer level with these guys? If you do, you are completely delusional.
Thread after thread you talk down to people instead of engaging them in a respectful manner. The fact that you take this approach with players who absolutely blow you away is just sad.
Peace.
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So, you hear a CdimMaj7 as a tonic chord in the key of C major? Then you have very different ears than I do. For several hundred years it's been defined as something other than a tonic chord, and that's how my ears hear it. Again, it can be used as an expansion of tonic harmony, but that is not the same as being a tonic chord. Originally Posted by mike walker
"Overtone series"? What does this have to do with the overtone series? (I may regret this - one of my other pet peeves is how music theoriticians have tried to twist the overtone series to justify their theories.) Originally Posted by mike walker
I actually have no problem with that. That makes sense. There is no confusion. Again, my objection is not with slash chords or with polychords - I use them both. Originally Posted by mike walker
Again, my problem is writing a slash chord notation when you mean a polychord. By the OP's logic, I can write Am/G# (as slash chord) and expect people not to think of that as an Am triad with a G# in the bass, but to psychically know that I mean it as a polychord and that it is really a G#7b9b13(no 7th). That is just sloppy notation IMHO.
Again, I don't know how many times or ways I can say this - I have no problem with slash chords or polychords. I just don't want them confused for each other.
Peace,
Kevin
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I have no problem that you have no problem. It's cool. I understand you. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
Well, I seem to have very different ears than you do, and that, I think, is cause for celebration. It's good to celebrate our differences.
Slash polychord wise, I'm having difficulty seeing how one can be confused with the other. I've never had that problem and i don't know anyone that has, and i have played with so many players it's not even funny.
It might be good to think about ease of reading at this point..... G#7b9b13(no 7th) || C#ma7#9#11 || F#ma9(no 3rd) || etc seems long winded to me. Am/G# || C/C# || C#/F# || does the job nicely at half the price. Tho i'll fight for your right to choose.
I'm not sure who is supposed to be getting confused or why.
But i have enjoyed our exchange thoroughly.
Bestest,
M.Last edited by mike walker; 04-12-2011 at 05:10 PM.
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(sigh) If you right those as polychords, then there is no confusion. If you write them as slash chords then there is a huge problem. If a chart has Am/G# in it, most of us will not assume that they (really) mean G#7b9b13(no 7th). Originally Posted by mike walker
Again: I have nothing against slash chords or polychords!!!(Please pardon the outburst, but this is getting annoying.) I use slash chords and polychords all the time - they can be very useful.
My objection is people using the notation of one for the other. But I'll just have to know when I'm reading one of your charts that when you write a B/C slash chord that you mean CMaj7#9#11 and when you write an Am/G# slash chord you really mean G#7b9b13(no 7th). Just out of curiosity, what chord symbol would you use for an Am triad with a G# note in the bass? Is it the same symbol you use for G#7b9b13(no 7th)? You really don't see why that might be confusing?
I'm not sure why it would be so difficult to draw a horizontal line to make it clear that you were talking about polychords (or to make clear the the second note is a triad if typing), but I'll have to take your word for it that it is too much trouble and not worth the confusion that it would save.
I however will continue to use slash notation for slash chords and polychord notation for polychords. That's jsut how my mind works.
Peace,
Kevin
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I don't get why it's annoying. You actually find this annoying? That's a little strange to me. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
(sigh) If you right those as polychords, then there is no confusion. If you write them as slash chords then there is a huge problem. If a chart has Am/G# in it, most of us will not assume that they (really) mean G#7b9b13(no 7th).
Again: I have nothing against slash chords or polychords!!!(Please pardon the outburst, but this is getting annoying.) I use slash chords and polychords all the time - they can be very useful.
My objection is people using the notation of one for the other. But I'll just have to know when I'm reading one of your charts that when you write a B/C slash chord that you mean CMaj7#9#11 and when you write an Am/G# slash chord you really mean G#7b9b13(no 7th). Just out of curiosity, what chord symbol would you use for an Am triad with a G# note in the bass? Is it the same symbol you use for G#7b9b13(no 7th)? You really don't see why that might be confusing?
I'm not sure why it would be so difficult to draw a horizontal line to make it clear that you were talking about polychords (or to make clear the the second note is a triad if typing), but I'll have to take your word for it that it is too much trouble and not worth the confusion that it would save.
I however will continue to use slash notation for slash chords and polychord notation for polychords. That's jsut how my mind works.
Peace,
Kevin
FWIW i wouldn't write ( did you mean right?) Am/G#, I was really following your thing and running with it.... personally i'd probably write G#alt(no 7).
It's all a matter of context. What you want from an improvisor etc. If you want to be prescriptive then i guess you can write a longform chord..... if you're a little looser and you want the improviser to explore other possible sounds whilst retaining the outline of your composition then Slash chords might be useful. When chords are flying by on a gig Polychords with slash chords are gonna be tough to follow without rehearsal.
With the luxury of rehearsal or even a talk before the gig about a particular composition that has polychords in you might just get away with it. But again, don't be expecting wonderful improvising on it.
At the same time if you write Dm7b5 || E/G || B/C I'll know exactly what to play on those chords at sight for the first time.
I'm interested, would you? Try to keep the anger down. Otherwise i'm gonna get worried for ya, seeing this is just the net n'all.
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I find it annoying that people keep thinking that I'm against slash chords or polychords when I've repeatedly said the opposite. People keep trying to defend the use of these when I have never spoken against that - my beef is with clarity and specificity of notation. Originally Posted by mike walker
But that's my point. Writing it as Am/G# (when you really mean Am/G#triad polychord ) would cause a lot of confusion. It is exactly what is being done when someone writes B/C but they really mean B/Ctriad as a polychord or CMaj7#9#11. Originally Posted by mike walker
See, this is the annoying part. I NEVER SAID THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH SLASH CHORDS OR POLYCHORDS! I USE THEM AND LIKE THEM! (Excuse my French.) OK, I'm better now. Again, my objection is using the same notation for both and assuming that they are equivalent. Originally Posted by mike walker
Well, that depends. Is that B/C a CdimMaj7 or a CMaj7#9#11? I know that you think that those are interchangeable but for many of us they aren't (as well as for hundreds of years of music history.) Again, the confusion would be simply cleared up but using separate notation for slash chords and polychords. It was my understanding that most of the jazz world does use different notation for each. You and JZ are the first I've encountered who seem to be saying that not only are the notations interchangeable, but it has no affect on the chord. Sorry, that's news to me. Originally Posted by mike walker
Peace,
Kevin
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I think you're full of it KS. I write B/C *BECAUSE* it is an open sounding voicing. As a jazz composer, I expect the musicians to interpret it in the same way they interpret C7. I don't expect them to stick to C E G Bb. Maybe in a big band arrangement or if the melody was Ab I might write C7#9#5 or something more specific but I *CHOOSE* to write B/C because it's my fookin tune. You're free to write whatever the heck you want on your charts though.
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Yes, you've made that abundantly clear in the personal attacks in posts in in PMs. Originally Posted by jzucker
So do I. The common tone diminished is one of my favorite chords. I use it in both jazz and classical composition. Originally Posted by jzucker
So do I. Can you point to where I said that we have to dictate every possible note in the chord? Originally Posted by jzucker
Again, you miss the point. I am not complaining about that voicing. I like it. I use it myself. (How many times have I repeated that in this thread?) You seem to miss the point that my beef was about notation and using a slash notation when you meant a polychord. Originally Posted by jzucker
Again, for most of us (at least as I was always taught in numerous jazz and classical theory books and course) the CT dim is not a tonic chord (until a few days ago, I'd never heard anyone suggest otherwise.) To say that it (CdimMaj7) is equivalent to a tonic chord bizarre, IMHO. Further, to write B/C as a slash chord when you really want CMaj7#9#11 is incomprehensible to me.
If you're writing it as a polychord, then OK, I hear you - that is a different kettle of fish. But you were saying that you could write it as a slash chord and magically expect people to know that, although what you were writing was CdimMaj7 (a common tone diminished, by definition not tonic harmony) that what you really meant was CMaj7#9#11. To me those are very different chord scales. You are the first person that I've ever heard assert that CdimMaj7 and CMaj7#9#11 are interchangeable.
Again, I'm not telling anyone what chords or voicings to use. I'm talking about the conventions of notation. I'm talking about clarity and specificity. It is not enough for notation to be accurate, it must also be understood. The B/C slash chord is a very specific sound and it typically has a very specific harmonic function - very different from a B/C polychord, your CMaj7#9#11. To assert that they can both be notated with the same slash chord is silly to me. Especially when writing the latter as a polychord would make everything perfectly clear.
A basic principle in making an understandable symbol system is that ideally each symbol, should ideally map to a different idea. The fact that some of these symbols have a little vagueness (the C7) is fine because that allows some freedom. But imagine if people stopped distinguishing between C7 and CMaj7, both just being written as "C7." One might reply, "But hey man, they should know from context. Jazz is an interpretive art. When jazz becomes a literal/notational music it's not jazz anymore. I just want to leave them the freedom to choose." No, I would disagree - the C7 and CMaj7 are such different harmonic families that they need to have different notations. I would say the same about your using the same symbol for CdimMaj7 and CMaj7#9#11. (Especially when there already is a separate shorthand for the latter.)
But I guess we'll have to disagree. Can we do it without the name calling and personal attacks and nasty PMs?
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 04-12-2011 at 11:34 PM.
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C7 and Cma7 are different because of the 7. One implies a different pool of notes. One could use a C altered scale, the other couldn't.
B/C and Cma7#9#11 does not have this restriction. Exactly the same pool of notes can be used. And it can happily keep it's function.
One of these examples uses a different note (the 7).
One just prunes the chord.
This is a fundamental Jazz thing. Music History (pre 60s) might not be up to snuff on it.
The fact you have not come across this phenomenon is more about what you have experienced thus far, and what I, and Jack, and countless others have been used to for many years.
I missed that someone has used B/C as a polychord in this thread, and I, and Jack, and countless others, would agree that that would also be confusing.
Bestest
Mike
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I hesitate to enter this arena, because I respect both sides' knowledge and experience, but it seems to me there's some cross-purposes and misunderstanding going on. At least kevin seems to think the others are missing his point - hence his frustration - and it looks that way to me too. But maybe he's missing theirs too?
Can I clarify (if only for myself) what's going on here.
I take kevin's position as:
1. The symbol "B/C" means C-F#-B-D# (last 3 notes in whatever order). It should not be used if a polychord is what is wanted. (Ie, if Cmaj7#9#11 is intended, in full.)
2. If Cmaj7#9#11 is what the writer wants to hear - rather than any other interpretation of "B/C", whatever that might be - he/she should write it as a polychord symbol:
B
C
"B/C" can be used if the writer wants to leave the choice of other notes open to the player. That might include E and G, as in the polychord, it might not.
The chord symbol might be used for a chord functioning in different ways, as mike and jack have outlined. The player would be expected to take that into account in his/her interpretation (what other notes to consider, if any).
It seems to me that both mike and jack are arguing the second point, which I'm sure kevin would not disagree with. (I agree with him, I find it hard to hear this as a tonic chord, but I accept that's my lack of experience with jazz of that type. I've seen the chord in Wayne Shorter, but nowhere else.)
Would mike and jack seriously disagree with the first point?
Or would kevin disagree with my precis of his position?
B/C leaves a certain amount open to interpretation.
B
C doesn't (well, bar the nature of the 6th I guess...)
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get out of the classroom and study some abercrombie and bierach and liebman. jazz is a folk art. The theory exists *ONLY* to explain what is played, not the other way around. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
If you can't hear or see B/C as being a tonic that is something you need to do more homework on. Over and over on this forum I have seen folks dismiss concepts and discussions that are beyond their scope of experience. Bad news if you are trying to grow as an improviser. We should be opening our minds, not closing them.Last edited by jzucker; 04-13-2011 at 07:27 AM.
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Good post, Jon. Originally Posted by JonR
I hesitate to enter this arena, because I respect both sides' knowledge and experience, but it seems to me there's some cross-purposes and misunderstanding going on. At least kevin seems to think the others are missing his point - hence his frustration - and it looks that way to me too. But maybe he's missing theirs too?
Can I clarify (if only for myself) what's going on here.
I take kevin's position as:
1. The symbol "B/C" means C-F#-B-D# (last 3 notes in whatever order). It should not be used if a polychord is what is wanted. (Ie, if Cmaj7#9#11 is intended, in full.)
2. If Cmaj7#9#11 is what the writer wants to hear - rather than any other interpretation of "B/C", whatever that might be - he/she should write it as a polychord symbol:
B
C
"B/C" can be used if the writer wants to leave the choice of other notes open to the player. That might include E and G, as in the polychord, it might not.
The chord symbol might be used for a chord functioning in different ways, as mike and jack have outlined. The player would be expected to take that into account in his/her interpretation (what other notes to consider, if any).
It seems to me that both mike and jack are arguing the second point, which I'm sure kevin would not disagree with. (I agree with him, I find it hard to hear this as a tonic chord, but I accept that's my lack of experience with jazz of that type. I've seen the chord in Wayne Shorter, but nowhere else.)
Would mike and jack seriously disagree with the first point?
Or would kevin disagree with my precis of his position?
B/C leaves a certain amount open to interpretation.
B
C doesn't (well, bar the nature of the 6th I guess...)
Just a couple of points. I agree about the polychord giving the meat of the C chord. No problem.
I have played with many many composers that would use this chord. Not one, in my 30 years of playing, has written it as a polychord. Mike Gibbs, Kenny Wheeler, Vince Mendoza, George Russell, etc etc write music that draws on this kind of pallette. I have played with all of them, amongst others, over a long period of time and never seen it once.
I totally get the reason for the polychord and at best the C chord might be used, with some discussion, as a polychord, but I play in the real world, and it is rarely used. Of course it will be used in books, that's a different matter. Liebman, Towner, Richie Bierach etc have all been analysed in books and have used this method to convey a sound. But if ya write a tune to be played on the fly with polychords all over, ya gonna get glares. I'm not saying we don't need to know how to do it.
Again, it's something I could do. But it's deffo not standard practice, (whatever that means!!!).
I have to agree that this is a problem of experience, and just hope that does not sound too conceited.
B/C is played, used, improvised and ended on as a I chord and is totally interchangeable with Cma7#9#11. That other folks can't hear it as a I, is another matter.
Thanks for wading in, Jon.Last edited by mike walker; 04-13-2011 at 09:22 AM.
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jon, you're still not seeing the forest for the trees. This is jazz music we're talking about. The chords notated on the chart are *THE STARTING POINT*. Weather you write B/C or Btriad/CTriad the musicians will interpret it in the way they feel it. I believe in reductionist notation so I will write C7 whenever possible instead of C7b9#11b13 unless a very specific voicing is required. And if so, I would then write the voicing out. The chord symbols are always subject to interpretation. Just listen to herbie's playing over maj7#5 chords where he uses uses a whole/half diminished scale or arpeggio from the root of the chord. That certainly wasn't notated with the b3 and yet, not only does he play it but it sounds great.
The chords are a basic vehicle and STARTING POINT.
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+1 Originally Posted by jzucker
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It is probably easier to hear X C X B D F# as a tonic I chord with some color. X C E B D F# or G C E B D F# are more complete.
X C X B D# F# similarly can be heard as a spicy tonic I chord, a sparser version of X C E B D# F# or G C E B D# F#
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