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Often expressed as a VII/I slash chord. (i.e. B/C).
I first heard this sound in some of the late 40s bop stuff and lines played by bird as a diminished suspension of the I chord as in:
| Dm7 | G7 | B/C | Cmaj7 |
In this case, the B/C is functioning as a Cdim7 chord.
The two common treatments for this chord are treating it as diminished off the C or to use 6th mode of (E) harmonic minor
I will often use a Gmaj7#5 arpeggio over this...
Anyway what are some sounds *you* like?
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04-09-2011 11:04 PM
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Well, first you need to clarify. Are you talking inversion of polychord.
If you mean B/C as in a B triad over a C bass, then yes, that is the CdimMaj7, also known as a common tone diminished chord. I usually just use a diminished scale for this.
If you mean B/C as in a B triad over a C triad, then that is a very different animal, your CMaj7#9#11. This would be a polychord, sometimes shown with a horizontal slash. Your E harm min makes sense, though, I also might just mess around with the triads.
Peace,
Kevin
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The scales/arpeggios suggested by Jack seem to be the most common options...
G/B/Eb augmented scale also works nicely for me..and so does G Harmonic major.
This particular sound/voicing was a favourite of Mark Turner's and Kurt Rosenwinkel's...I can think of at least a couple of tracks where it has a prominent role (Casa Obscura and Iverson's Oddysey)....
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...and they can both be found here for reference/analysis etc...
Scores and Transcriptions - Jazzenzo
Loads of great ideas on the recordings by two modern masters...
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slash implies slash chord, not polychord though frankly you can still use C Dim scale against the polychord. Herbie did that a lot. And even in the slash chord, some of the lower chordal tones are implied. People often get hung up on this point but it's not unlike adding b9#11 when comeone writes a C7 chord leading to an Fmaj.
Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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Dave Leibman in his book on improvisation indicates polychords in the following way:
B/C tr
First symbol is assumed to be a chord and the second one a bass note unless indicated as in the example given.
tr = triad
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liebman's notation is not standard. The standard notation is
B/C = slash chord
B
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C = polychord
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That Liebman thing looks like a way to get around a typesetting issue. Just like in Sibelius where you can't write a real polychrd as it should be.
As far as B/C this is a multi use chord and I use it all the time ( C B D# F#) as a 7#9. (C as the 3rd)
I look at it as belonging to the symmetrical scale and treat it as I would a Dim7. so in this case harminizing the 1/2-W version you get :
B/C, D/Eb , F/Gb and Ab/A. Each of these work great as some kind of Ab7 ( 7#9 , b9b5, 13b9, 7b9)
Regarding a sound I dig it would be a major triad in first inversion with different melody notes. I use it as a 2-5 all the time
xxACFG (Dmi11)
xxG# B E G (G13b9)
you can even put the G on the 6th string and also double it.
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I think you mean Cdim scale. That's the scale that has B/C, D/Eb , F/Gb and Ab/A
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Aside from the polychord vs. slash chord nomenclature tangent, these are the types of threads I like to read and think about.
Liked Jack's first post and JohnW's, just above. Thanks, guys!
Carry on ...
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yes but in B it's the 1/2 -w. Same thing. Ones the scale the other is the mode. I learned it 1/2-w and spent the most time dissecting that one. Once you have all the interavals , triads , harmonized scale , ect , you just invert every thing
Ex. in 1/2-w one of the intervals moves ma3-P4 (C-E , Db-Gb ect) in the W- 1/2 its P4-ma3 (C-F D-F#)
mi3, tt, ma6 and octaves are the same and move symmetrically through both
But you knew this already
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right john but technically the dim scale is still a dim scale and starts with a whole step. Starting with a half step is starting on the 8th of the diminished scale instead of the root.
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Let me clarify. My post refer's to the B Symetrical scale basesd on 1/2 step whole step.
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For the progression you write I'd use E harmonic minor (treating it as if it is F# or Eb dim in C).
From the title of the thread I really thought you meant C E G B D# F# (I think Round midnight has one of those
) which is a completely different sounding chord (to me anyway?)
Oddly enough I would use the same scale but I play very differently, since the E is then in the chord and not one of the notes it resolves to.
Jens
Edit: And by the wat this is a very interesting subject either way
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Lots of good ideas here.
When I first saw the thread, my gut reaction was to use a G altered sound over it, since it resolves to the C. But when I saw jack's G7#5 idea, I thought that would be a cop out answer...
After playing around, I still like that, I hear the harmonic minor idea as well, and I find myself particularly drawn to this pitch set B C D# E F# G, and hanging on a B or F#...of course, it's obvious where those notes came from and it's not the original chord we're talking about, but that's probably one of the first places i'd go now were I to see it in a chart.
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True, but I was just trying to understand why the OP was trying to equate this with a Maj7#9#11 - that is only possible if you are thinking of it is a polychord. I thought the OP might be confused. Sadly, I have seen (though rarely) the two notations confused. Originally Posted by jzucker
Well, in all fairness, that is not set in stone. Grove for example defines more WH and HW as diminished scales and give no precedence to either. I would agree that there is a tendency (especially in the jazz world) to define the WH as the diminished scale, but that is not universally accepted. (Though I have heard people speak of it as if it were.) I've ranted before about the confusing terminology for diminished scales. Originally Posted by jzucker
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 04-11-2011 at 03:02 AM.
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Another option would be G harmonic major.
Jens
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I am the original poster. Since jazz is an interpretive art, inferring Cmaj7#9#11 when the written chord is B/C is not much different than inferring C7b9#11 when the written chord is C7. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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He said major, Jack, which does give the B. Originally Posted by jzucker
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ok, thanks for the correction. sorry... Originally Posted by mike walker
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no problem. I did not read you OP as well as I should either.I am curious, do you hear the Btriad over C as a major chord or as a minor(diminished actually) chord. I think that it will not sound major if you have the #9 (or b3) but no major 3rd. Therefore I would not call it a C major chord.I know there are no rules for this. this tends to correspond with what I hearJens
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Jens, I agree with the G Harmonic Major option (see my post above). Cool sound.
Does anyone also use the G/B/Eb Augmented scale? A couple of passing notes but great pull towards C and those Brecker type licks work nicely.
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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
I have usually seen the HW as the primary symmetrical scale. One source I'll quote is Persichetti's 20th century Harmony under the chapter on Synthetic scales. He only shows HW. I don't recall one being given a preference over the other either.
I could see Jack's point if you considered C the root of the chord. But I tend not to look at chords build from the symmetrical scale that way. (except diminshed 7 of course) I look at almost all of them as being panditonic
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Monday morning thoughts and questions.
If B/C is inverted so that the C is no longer the root, is it the same chord?
Can it still make the same resolutions?
If we're talking B over C triad then is not B/E and B/G and possibly B/A and B/D part of the same basic family.
Drawing from the note pool B D# F# C E G. In addition to complimentary pair B over C it also contains these.
Em and Cdim // Cm and BSus // G+ and CMab5. What if any is the relationship of these structures to the original?
Adding B Triad to a C lydian gives me: C D D# E F# G A B
Substituting D# for D yields C D# E F# G A B C (E harmonic minor)
Adding C triad to B Major scale gives me: B C C# D# E F# G G# A#
Substituting C for C# and G for G# yields B C D# E F# G A# B (contains minor 2nds on B D# F# A# and 2 consecutive A# B C)
Does the style of symbol influence how we respond?
B/C or CdimMa7 or Ab7#9 or D13b9
B over C or Cma7#9#11
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Oh, I think that there is a big difference. You've made some rather major changes to quality and function. There is a big difference in function between a CT dim and a tonic with a #11 and a #9 and these sound very different. I'm not saying that you can't do it, just that you are doing more of a reharm (or an unreharm) than a sub. And it is not unexpected that people might think that you're confusing a slash chord for a polychord. Originally Posted by jzucker
I've often wondered about this. Does writing it a certain way affect how it is played. Beethoven would sometimes write things in awkward key signatures, supposedly because he thought that it would cause them to be interpreted less smoothly. I've wondered about polychords too, many of them can be written in a more straightforward manner - does it affect how people approach them? Originally Posted by bako
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 04-11-2011 at 11:05 AM.
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