Dorian mode question

[Claudi]

Buuuufffffffffffff! Amazing, man!
I've been soloing over these chords and it sounds really jazzy! That's what jazz is about. Finally I got it!

[mike walker]

Hey Claudi,

Well done.

First thing is, if your choices are what you hear, and that pleases your ear, then disregard what i say.

Try to keep choices simple at first.

Think about the pull of one chord on another ie G7 on Am7 D7 on Em7.

When 2 chords move in quick succession ie Dm7 Em7 2 beats each, it doesn't make sense (when they belong to the same family) to treat each separately (exceptions exist of course). So as in Miles' So What just think D Dorian for a while.

So be careful of Phrygian. The b2 needs care.

Try this ..... Em Fma7. Find the 5th degree on the Fma7, and flatten it (it's an Fma7#11).

Play your E phrygian through both chords. That will give you the mood of Phrygian.

It's strong. So be careful in movements like Am7 G7 and D7 Em7 because the 3rds of the Dom chords are pulling on the m7 chords.

All good with the subs.

So that little run up really begs you to go to Cma, not Gma.
Ya could do that bit the other way around i suppose. Or again, if ya like it going to Gma, then just use your own feeling.

M.

[Claudi]

Hi, Mike!
I have some questions on all this. One is about the tritone sub; as I play as a hobby I do it alone so I can't share ideas with band mates, and as I said before I also play the piano, well in fact it's a 5 octave keyboard but I play it as if it were a piano, and have noticed that being Db7 the tritone sub of G7 I cannot play both chords together because they don't share any note and sound like a terror film. If I play only Db7 then there's no trace of the original G7. What do I have to play exactly on the guitar or on the piano? The same goes for simple subs. If I play Dm7 as a sub of Cmaj7 here a Cmaj9 sounds good but if I play the sub (Dm7) then there's no trace of the original chord Cmaj7.
As we have only analysed 1 tune of mine I'm looking forward your analisis for the tune this guy is asking. Sorry to give you more work with another person but I think this time you'll help 2 people: this guy and me.

Again thanks a bunch, Mike. You make (still in present) me walk alone. That counts for Bako and Reg too.

[mike walker]

Claudi,

write me out the notes of Db7, then underneath write out the notes of G7.

I think i know what's happening, but i need you to clarify it.

Dm7 is not a sub for C. Em7 is. It's rootless Cma9. But Dm7 could be used as a passing chord as in if you have 2 bars of Cma7 you could play ;

Cma7 Dm7 | Em7 // |

All good.

[Claudi]

Hi, Mike!

Db7: Db F Ab C
G7: G B D F

I have some other question, but that'll come after your clarification of the tritone.
I made a mistake!!! I meant Em7! So sorry!

[mike walker]

Cool. I figured it might be something like that.

Db7 has a b7 not a M7, wich would make it Cb (B).

F is the 3rd of Db and the 7th of G.
B is the 7th of Db and the 3rd of G
Db is the b5 of G
G is the b5 of Db.

Check that out and get back to me.

[Claudi]

Hey, mike I know this, what I'm asking as a solo player is what I do have to play. If I where in a trio quartet or band these subs would make sense to me because I'd be sharing intervals with other musicians, but playing myself alone if I make a sub then the original root of the subed chord disappears and the original chord of the tritone sub also disappears. Does it matter? Or maybe it doesn't too much!?

I can say any mode interval from the melodic minor scale by heart already. I wanna internalize the scheme some more. The harmonic major and minor are still in the oven.
As you're a jazz cat I'd like to know which scales you can play and which ones you prefer. I say this because I know many scales but I don't think that I can use whichever but that I have to use the ones that make jazz be what it is.

[mike walker]

Hi, Mike!
.... and have noticed that being Db7 the tritone sub of G7 I cannot play both chords together because they don't share any note and sound like a terror film. If I play only Db7 then there's no trace of the original G7. person but I think this time you'll help 2 people: this guy and me.
.

This is the part i was referring to. Here ya say they don't share notes.
But obviously they do. The F and B which is the Tri-tone.

Or am i reading you wrong. Sorry if i am.

Hey, mike I know this, what I'm asking as a solo player is what I do have to play. If I where in a trio quartet or band these subs would make sense to me because I'd be sharing intervals with other musicians, but playing myself alone if I make a sub then the original root of the subed chord disappears and the original chord of the tritone sub also disappears. Does it matter? Or maybe it doesn't too much!?

I can say any mode interval from the melodic minor scale by heart already. I wanna internalize the scheme some more. The harmonic major and minor are still in the oven.
As you're a jazz cat I'd like to know which scales you can play and which ones you prefer. I say this because I know many scales but I don't think that I can use whichever but that I have to use the ones that make jazz be what it is.

I learned many scales, all the ones you mention plus many others, augmented, Wholetone, Diminished, Double Harmonic min, Hungarian modes, Messiaen modes. I love colours, sounds, and i explore them for impro and composing.

Improvisation is an organic process. I have heard some beautiful improvisation from people that didn't know a scale from a whale.

But i have always fed my ear, and always loved knowledge.

Use your ear. But always feed it new sounds, colours, etc, thru knowledge.

[oilywrag]

Hi Claudi,I will try and answer part of your question.If you take

||CMaj7Am7 |Dm7G7||

1625 in C, the quartet is playing this as written,You on the other hand are getting a bit bored you could sub any of the chords and therefore look at the progression in a different way.

||Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 ||

If you played over that,and the bass player played over the original changes I dont think that there would be any major clashes,all you are doing is altering the "colour" of the line you play.
Once again if this is wrong, hopfully will jump in and say so.

Cheers tom

[mike walker]

Hi Claudi,I will try and answer part of your question.If you take

||CMaj7Am7 |Dm7G7||

1625 in C, the quartet is playing this as written,You on the other hand are getting a bit bored you could sub any of the chords and therefore look at the progression in a different way.

||Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 ||

If you played over that,and the bass player played over the original changes I dont think that there would be any major clashes,all you are doing is altering the "colour" of the line you play.
Once again if this is wrong, hopfully will jump in and say so.

Cheers tom

Bang on, Tom. When ya sub those you can sub those once more,

so it becomes E7#9 /A7b5 / | Dm9 / F9 /| Em7 /Eb9 /| D9 / F#m7b5 G9sus |

all for that II VI V I !!!!!

And it goes much further........ But just have some fun with that.

[Claudi]

This is the part i was referring to. Here ya say they don't share notes.
But obviously they do. The F and B which is the Tri-tone.

Or am i reading you wrong. Sorry if i am.

G7: G B D F
Db7: Db F Ab Cb(B).
So I can play Db7 and B F of the G7, but anyway it all is Db7 with a different voicing. I mean I can't play Db7/G(bass) 'cause G doesn't belong to Db7, since it should be Gb.

I learned many scales, all the ones you mention plus many others, augmented, Wholetone, Diminished, Double Harmonic min, Hungarian modes, Messiaen modes. I love colours, sounds, and i explore them for impro and composing.

Improvisation is an organic process. I have heard some beautiful improvisation from people that didn't know a scale from a whale.

But i have always fed my ear, and always loved knowledge.

Use your ear. But always feed it new sounds, colours, etc, thru knowledge.

Ok, then. So if I play harmonic major or minor, whole tone, diminished and augmented it'll be fine whenever the chords allow me to do it.

Thanks, amigo!

[mike walker]

The G is fine in Db... it's a b5. Look at your melodic min modes and see if ya can find a 7th chord with a b5.

But also it works in reverse, the b5 of G7 is Db!!! So it works both ways.

Try resolving Db7b5 to Cma7..... then resolve G7b5 to Cma7

They both work.... and that's the beauty of tri-tone substitution.

I don't want to get too technical, just look at it for yourself.... spend some time with it.

[Claudi]

Hi, Tom. Yes, I understand it when it comes to play with someone or a band but playing alone if I sub chords then what's being subed disappears. If I play in a trio and a quartet (I don't expect to do it by now) the band is still playing a Cmaj7 and I play an Emin7 which becomes a Cmaj9, but if the band is not present then the original root disappears and it's not a Cmaj9 anymore but an Emin7. Anyway I can do it both ways Cmaj9 or Emin7 or simply won't sub.
Y'know now I have to revise again all the standards and lead sheets I compiled these past 2 years and a half in this forum with this new perspective!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

G7: G B D F
Db7: Db F Ab Cb(B).
So I can play Db7 and B F of the G7, but anyway it all is Db7 with a different voicing. I mean I can't play Db7/G(bass) 'cause G doesn't belong to Db7, since it should be Gb.

There's a "unity of opposites" going on with tritone substitutions.

For example: Over G7, you can play from the scales:

1. G lydian dominant (G A B C# D E F G) -- consonant, or
2. G altered (G super loc) (G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G) -- more tension

Over Db7 you can play:

3. Db lydian dominant (Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db) or
4. Db altered (C# D E F G A B C#)

Do you see it? 1 and 4 have the same notes; 2 and 3 have the same notes!

Now what about Db7 over a G bass? That G is the #11 of the Db7. If the bass player is playing a G, he can hold onto a big, fat G and you can enjoy that tension(!) and finally resolve Db7 -> CMaj, or the bass player will hear what you're doing and perhaps slide up to Ab, then Db etc...

[Claudi]

The G is fine in Db... it's a b5. Look at your melodic min modes and see if ya can find a 7th chord with a b5.

But also it works in reverse, the b5 of G7 is Db!!! So it works both ways.

Try resolving Db7b5 to Cma7..... then resolve G7b5 to Cma7

They both work.... and that's the beauty of tri-tone substitution.

I don't want to get too technical, just look at it for yourself.... spend some time with it.

Oh no, mike! It's not too technical. It's good to understand why a b5 works here and to know it's right doing it. At this point you still think I'm scared of theory?

[Claudi]

There's a "unity of opposites" going on with tritone substitutions.

For example: Over G7, you can play from the scales:

1. G lydian dominant (G A B C# D E F G) -- consonant, or
2. G altered (G super loc) (G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G) -- more tension

Over Db7 you can play:

3. Db lydian dominant (Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db) or
4. Db altered (C# D E F G A B C#)

Do you see it? 1 and 4 have the same notes; 2 and 3 have the same notes!

Now what about Db7 over a G bass? That G is the #11 of the Db7. If the bass player is playing a G, he can hold onto a big, fat G and you can enjoy that tension(!) and finally resolve Db7 -> CMaj, or the bass player will hear what you're doing and perhaps slide up to Ab, then Db etc...

Hi, Big daddy. Welcome to the debate. And thank you for your tips. Always useful. 'Till now I was still thinking of the diatonic scale but I think that today I can give way to the melodic minor.

[Reg]

There's an art... or skill, call it what you wish... when changing chord progressions in a live or gigging situation. Like many say, if it sounds good to your ears...it is good. Just make sure you have good ears...
In Tom's example, the substitution chord is diatonic sub., from the same collection of notes,(scale or mode). As long as your not changing the harmonic function and there are no melodic problems ... it's usually cool. When you start using non-diatonic substitution chords, like the Db7 for G7, called; tri-tone sub or Substitute Dominate. Don't mix substitute chord for substitute Dominant, there different, sometime causes problems when we say or use the word, "sub." Anyway your implying a new collection of notes, so this type of chord substitution is a temporary modulation. There are many more standard non-diatonic chord substitute chords, I think I went through this in a thread about chord substitution... The harmonic rhythm and melodic awareness become even more important once you start pulling your substitution chords from non-diatonic harmonic areas. There's an art ...or skill to how and where you use chord substitutions. A simple rule of thumb or one liner, and is somewhat standard practice... is to play your re-harms. on weak sides of beat, I'm referring to, harmonic, melodic or simply the rhythm accent pattern, (the groove) of chart. I back a lot of vocalists, I know I'm covering well when the vocalist digs the groove. My ears or skill of using re-harms or substitution chords is adding and not taking away from the performance. So back to changing chords...Diatonic with same harmonic function are rarely a problem... voicing would cover any melody problem. Non-diatonic chord changes or re-harmonizations take a little more experience or theoretical awareness to use. What sounds incredible one day... sounds like a train wreck later. Your ears will keep getting better, at least more aware. I guess what I should do is start a thread of typical subs and re-harms and explain why and how they work... yea include examples... That will be fun... best Reg

[mike walker]

Oh no, mike! It's not too technical. It's good to understand why a b5 works here and to know it's right doing it. At this point you still think I'm scared of theory?

You scared of theory?

Not a chance.

As Reg says, there is indeed an art to subbing chords in a gig situation.... and you need to really have almost a sixth sense, and a little taste when backing Singers and improvisers in general.

So often compers just bang in some changes just for the sake of letting everyone know how many chords they know, and it's totally inappropriate.

Substitutions are fun in the right hands, and with a little grace from both the comper and the soloist/singer... magic happens.

Reharmonizing and improvising on the spot are my favourite things in music. A very in the moment feeling.

Lovely contributions here from everyone.

[mike walker]

There's a "unity of opposites" going on with tritone substitutions.

For example: Over G7, you can play from the scales:

1. G lydian dominant (G A B C# D E F G) -- consonant, or
2. G altered (G super loc) (G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G) -- more tension

Over Db7 you can play:

3. Db lydian dominant (Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db) or
4. Db altered (C# D E F G A B C#)

Do you see it? 1 and 4 have the same notes; 2 and 3 have the same notes!

Now what about Db7 over a G bass? That G is the #11 of the Db7. If the bass player is playing a G, he can hold onto a big, fat G and you can enjoy that tension(!) and finally resolve Db7 -> CMaj, or the bass player will hear what you're doing and perhaps slide up to Ab, then Db etc...

Another lovely 'unity' is the Diminished scale.

G Ab Bb Cb Db D E F G Both Db7 and G7 as full chords exist within (and a few others.....)

[Claudi]

I guess what I should do is start a thread of typical subs and re-harms and explain why and how they work... yea include examples... That will be fun... best Reg

That would be a great help. Looking forward reading it!

[Claudi]

.... and you need to really have almost a sixth sense.

Then girls/women do have a 7th sense! Just kidding.

Another lovely 'unity' is the Diminished scale.

G Ab Bb Cb Db D E F G Both Db7 and G7 as full chords exist within (and a few others.....)

Yeah, I read some of you name this scale quite often. So after learning better the melodic minor scheme I'll dig the diminished's. Again it's not unfamiliar to me. I also have weakness for the harmonic minor. It's just me. I love how it sounds.

[Claudi]

Some hours ago I remembered I have BIAB but still have to open it, that's why I didn't remember. Therefore I won't have a problem for substituting whatever. Sorry guys to annoy you about the playing alone thing before.

[Claudi]

Hi, Mike!
Here I am again! Did you think I'd let die this great thread die like that? Nope! It's time to make me think now that I'm into this all.
Well, I have learned the scheme with the intervals for the melodic minor/jazz minor scale by heart. I can say every mode the same way I can with those of the diatonic scale and have the picture of the scheme in my mind, so I think I have internalized it enough to try me.
Since I still can't play all the chords for this scale on the guitar due to the 5# in the lydian 5# (3rd mode), the b5 in the aeolian b5 (6th mode) and the superlocrian/altered scale with a b4 and a b5 (7th mode) I think you could give me an example of a chord progression in this scale and I'll start subbing it.
Don't worry, I'll work out the chords on the guitar.

Thanks again in advance.

[mike walker]

Hey Claudi,

Love your openness, man.

Try This all from F mel min

|: 4x553x | 8x896x | 10x101080 | 3x653x | x3201x | 1x011x | 3x331x :|

Could you name these chords? All from mel min. One key.

Things get interesting when you start to use mel min with maj scale sounds (ii v i typifies this).

Come up with some of your own, Claudi?

[Reg]

Hey Mike... cool Guitar like voicings... very deceptive, imply way more than what you actually play... what would you play over changes... very 70's McLaughlin like... Best Reg