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Claudi,
The progression I created is in C major but freely borrows from a parallel C Dorian collection of harmonies.
Borrowing chords is one means of creating or understanding a progression.
It is easier to hear things like this after you know each mode in it's own harmonic environment.
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09-07-2010 09:55 AM
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Hey Claudi... sorry I was quick last night. Gigs are always great... I love to play... I'm on west coast, Calif. Mondays are usually a non gig day... anyway Modal Harmony can be what ever you want to make it.... What you and bako were discussing could be a version of using modal harmony concepts... But not modal harmony... I think it's important to understand the fundamentals of modal harmony... We generally think in Ionian mode, for example, Cmaj. G7 is the Dominant V chord, and the tri-tone wants to go to Cmaj. or a version of... or any other tonic chord.(III- or VI-)
Originally Posted by Claudi
When you decide to use, for example D- from that Cmaj scale, D Dorian and call this D dorian your I chord in Modal Harmony... The harmonic Rules change. Your no longer following traditional harmony practice. The usual V7 chord is avoided because you don't want to imply traditional Dominant tri-tone resolution, V7 to I or Ionian harmony. The new harmonic controlling system is now built on implying Dorian mode, or Dmin as the I chord. Dmin is the new tonic. The way this was and is done is to use the characteristic note from Dorian scale, which is the 6th degree or "B" as functional device to imply D Dorian as our new Tonic. If you listen to late 50's and 60's modal music, MaCoy Tyner for example, chordal players began to voice chords in 4ths to help our ears get away from traditional harmonic function, which helps with the use of Dominant chords. We don't automatically expect the tri-tone, or sub-dominant functioning chords to resolve as in Ionian, our normal harmonic system. Think of modal harmony as you would serial or 12 tone music... a different organizational system of controlling melodic and harmonic function. Simply much closer to our traditional system... And modal harmony as with most systems in jazz... is not the word of GOD. It's an idea and the development of that idea by actual music... Hope the concept is becoming clear... best Reg
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Yes, i think that's where the confusion often lies. Originally Posted by oilywrag
Using modes is cool for ii v Is and general standard chord progressions. Modes in this respect just track the colour of each chord. A mode is a mood. Dm7 to G7 mode wise is D dorian to G mixolydian. Use those as a base to add more colour ie flat the 2nd degree of mixolydian to give a 7b9 sound.
The pull (gravity) of a chord progression affects the modes you use.
Dbma9 has an affect on Ab7. Ebma9 has a different affect on Ab7 (it wants you to keep the D, so making it Lydianb7).
If you learn the modes deeply enough, you can begin to bend them into other sounds, whilst still keeping an eye on the template ie Em7b5 has a lochrian sound, depending on it's context of course, but it can also have a lochrian with a natural 2 sound (F# instead of F).
All the chord tones, arpeggios chromatics lie within each sound.
But you don't see these things in isolation. You see them as part of a bigger picture. Drawers of a cabinet. Paints of a painting etc etc.
Modal based tunes OTOH use things that are intrinsic to those tunes in a more specific way. Often a lack of II V Is, Ostinato figures, very few chords, non resolution, lines not having to be tied to traditional II V I cliches etc etc.
There are other considerations to peruse.
But, for now, that's enough of my thoughts on the matter.
Forgive me, if this is ground you have covered already.Last edited by mike walker; 09-07-2010 at 11:13 AM.
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It's not, then who is that voice I hear speaking in my head.#//@k!!!? Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks Reg,
Great contributions as always.
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Hey bako... I'm still on the ground..... as long as it's not the jazz police Originally Posted by bako
Like wise always ... Reg
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Hi, Reg.
I'm happy with your explanations. I understand them all.
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What a lovely open thread this has been.
So refreshing to share our knowledge and get to a better understanding.
It's what it's all about for me.
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I'll keep this in my mind, but I guess that as Mike Walker said in another post in this thread "it's the use or abuse you make of it". So maybe it's good to play equaly a simple chord progression and also modal harmony and/or modal harmony interchange. Originally Posted by bako
Today it's been a glorious day for me!
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Mike,how would this work out then.If you had a l,vi,ii,V in C that had been altered eg ||:Em7Eb9|Dm7Bb7:||
would you look at each chord on its own or would you work out something to play through them,hope you get what I am saying.
Cheers Tom
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Well, i personally would give each chord a sound, and that sound would be affected by the pull of the min chords on the dominant chords.
Emin7 affects Eb9, the 4th of Em (A) wants to stay for the Eb9 chord #11, (apart from the fact that Eb9 is a Tri tone sub of A7 which in turn is a V of Emi) So the Eb9 becomes a Lyd Dom (4th mode of Bb mel min).
A similar thing happens with the Dm to Bb7. The 9th of Dm (E) wants to stay around to become a #11. So again it's a Lyd Dom on Bb. When i say 'wants to stay around' i mean that if you play a 4th in the Eb chord (Straight mixolydian), it doesn't sound quite as smooth as the #4 (Lyd Dom).
The Em7 would have a Phrygian sound (or Cma if ya think of Em as a sub for the I chord) and the Dm7 would have a Dorian sound. Use Arpeggios and small scale units to get thru it if the chords are moving fast. Many ways to get thru that particular progression.
This is just the beginning, and a simplified explanation but i think it's best you let your ears be the judge, especially where those Lyd Doms are concerned.Last edited by mike walker; 09-07-2010 at 05:50 PM.
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Hey Tom ... Melody or other wise permitting, I usually play E dorian over the E-9 and on the Eb9 I always play between A altered and Eb lydian b7, same collection of notes but very easy to create movement with harmonic and melodic interest going between two, either sub-V or altered V... ( I usually make the E-7 chord Dorian, rather than the normal E-7b5 because I can create more Tension resolve )again Dorian over D-7 and imply going to V chord but deceptively go to the Bb7, which would be lydian b7 again and then your I chord, Cmaj7 , If you made your Bb7 lean more towards the Augmented or whole tone direction, you could change the Cmaj. to Lydian... much more fun to play over. I'm only giving scales for harmonic reference, I'm more of a melodic player...even when I comp, my lead lines are more important than actual chord tones. I don't stay in one harmonic area very long over any tune. There's an art to playing on the weak side of harmonic rhythms so as not to sound like your changing harmony, (scales).
I just picked up this little cam recorder so I can post video clips of whatever, to help explain what I express verbally. I need to grab memory card and I'll be off... best Reg
As far as your re-harm... You can either call the E- a diatonic sub for the I chord, Cmaj. There both Tonic chords, same function, basically same notes... and call the Eb9 a sub-V of D-7, the II chord and then call the Bb7 a modulation and change of function. bVII chords usually imply sub-dominant function, but is very common practice and almost assumes the implied dominant function. Or call the E-7 to Eb9 an implies II- V of D-( the Eb9 is sub of implied A7) Both versions are standard in jazz... again Best Reg
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You know, guys, though yesterday I understood everything you can say from now I still have to internalize everything and that's the reason why I'm having a hard work to understand every explanation when you relate every chord and each one of their intervals to the modes, but that's what I say; it's a matter of internalizing everything and I'll make it just by analyzing all your explanations. Keep on and you'll make me go on!
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You'll get there Claudi!! Originally Posted by Claudi
You know, guys, though yesterday I understood everything you can say from now I still have to internalize everything and that's the reason why I'm having a hard work to understand every explanation when you relate every chord and each one of their intervals to the modes, but that's what I say; it's a matter of internalizing everything and I'll make it just by analyzing all your explanations. Keep on and you'll make me go on!
You can do so much with 4 simple chords!! It's possible to think of each chord in a way that re-routes, so to speak, the direction of your line.
The melodic contour is very important, tho, when you do that. Dorian, as Reg suggests, for the first chord Emin7 gives 2 very strong resolving colours F# and C#. These colours were F and C in all the other chords, if you look at them basically. Check out that kind of detail. It yields some very interesting results.
When colours are that strong, (F# and C#) it might be good to hold them back until later in the solo. But that's where your own personal choice and taste come into play. Let your ears give you guidance.
Also, remember where it's coming from first. It's a very C based progression. So work with that for some time before you start to superimpose other sounds. Try to create melodies that are natural, whilst still moving along the natural contour of the progression. At first, strive for clarity and melodic purpose. Triads, for instance, are beautifully clear. Ask yourself which triads might work on the basic progression that Tom supplied.
Analysis is a delicious thing.
I remember my Brother saying, 'I just can't read a book... i don't see the point..'
So i gave him a book called 'Birdsong' by Sebastian Faulks.
'Read the first chapter' said I. 'And then, if it ain't working, take it to the Oxfam shop'.
He didn't want it to end of course. Often the information in the book has to have some resonance with the reader. To 'strike a chord' so to speak.
Try to analyze in a way, that gets you on the page, in a way that gives you a feeling of progress. In small bites.
You can do this in stages. But start very simply. For instance see if you can find out why a chord has been placed at that particular point (why the Bb7 after the Dm7 for instance?). Often there are a number of reasons, and sometimes these reasons are to do more with the logic of harmony, than what the composer intended. And this, for me, is one of the real beauty's of music.
Theory follows, where music leads.Last edited by mike walker; 09-08-2010 at 04:50 AM.
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Hey, Mike!
Thank you for your advices. No doubt I'm reading them all carefully.
What do you think of this piece I wrote for Tom in another thread?
Dm7 Em7| Dm7 Em7
Am7 G7 | Am7 G7
Gmaj7 Cmaj7
Gmaj7 Cmaj7| D7 Em7.
Dm7 Em7| Dm7 Em7
Am7 G7 | Am7 G7
Gmaj7 Cmaj7
Gmaj7 Cmaj7| D7 Em7.
There are not too many chords but there are 2 tonalities. 1rst one is Cmajor II III VI V, and the second is Gmajor I IV and V VI to finish it. The last 2 chords are the end of the piece.
Tell me what your opinion to let me know if I'm on right path.
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Well done, Claudi!!
Keep at it fella. Did you write a tune for it yet?
Just one thing, the Am to G7 is interesting. Obviously Am7 can sub for C, so a I V thing is in the air. Or, Am7 can sub for Fma7, and Fma7 can sub for Dmi7.... see where i'm going with this? But i think that's a little more of a liberty.
If ya think of it as a sub for Fma7, you could play (at some point)
Fma7 G7 | Am7 Bm7b5 all for Am7 G7 !!
The move from G7 to Gma7 is also interesting because it's a very subtle transition to the G tonality.
What do you think about the over all sound of it?Last edited by mike walker; 09-08-2010 at 04:52 AM.
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Hey mike, I understand why reg suggests dorian to the Emin7 (1 b3 5 b7) and that F# is the major9 and C# is the maj6/13. Originally Posted by mike walker
I'm starting to see by just simply looking at a single chord what mode to use. For instance, a min7 chord suggests to think of dorian, phrygian and aeolian but if we have a maj9 I can discard the phrygian, if we have a min9 I can discard dorian and aeolian. The 6th/13 will tell me which one I have to play since both have a p4. If we have a dominant chord I only think of mixolydian, If I have a 7b5 chord I think of locrian. If I have a maj7 I think of ionian and lydian, these 2 have a maj9 and a maj6/13 so it'll have to be the p4 for ionian or the aug4 which will tell me which one I'll have to play.
I knew this all but still didn't thought of it by just looking at a chord.
Yeah! Analysis; that's what I'm doing for a long time. Before it was for soloing, now chords are in.
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Mike, subs are a strong point in me when it comes to piano. Simply for the display of the keys I always know where the notes and intervals are. I still didn't put it into practice on the guitar, but the time has come. I'm fired up! Originally Posted by mike walker
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Nice! Even the Bm7b5 sounds great!I like the move from G7 to Gmaj7, too. Originally Posted by mike walker
You have good suggestions, man!
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Why do ya think it works, Claudi? Originally Posted by Claudi
Be careful with Dom 7 chords. Sometimes they suggest Lyd Dom or if you prefer to call it Mixolydian #4. Many Standards suggest this, Stella, (Ebma9 Ab7 ) Night in Tunisia (Eb9 Dm) A Train, There will never be Another you,
Even Cantaloupe Island, tho that has more ambiguity.
Best to try it for yourself. Play the Ebma9 to Ab13, a bar each, over and over..... record it.... try straight Mixolydian on the Ab13... but focus on a small pitch collection (little pool of notes) Bb C Db Eb F...... the 9th 3rd 4th 5th and 6th. Then do the same but replace the 4th with the #4.
Forgive me if you already do this.
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Maybe because when we sub the chords I wrote belong to 2 tonalities and therefore we're playing chords from both tonalities? Originally Posted by mike walker
Yeah, but lydian dominant is the 4rth mode of the melodic minor scale/jazz minor scale and I'm not yet into it. I mean I can find any mode of whichever the scale you propose and in few seconds I have it written on a paper but I haven't internalized the intervals as I did with the major scale. If you ask me for any mode in the major scale I have a good mental overview, the scheme is in my brain as if it were before my eyes but not yet for the rest of the scales though when I see their schemes are not unfamiliar to me. I just have to study them a little bit more. Originally Posted by mike walker
I didn't dare to ask you if it's possible to pass from one sort of scale to another one harmonically talking because I think that this maybe could be too much by now.
Mike, I'm playing 4 string chords. I suppose it's fine. Anyway I've thought of playing 7th triads 1 3 7 or triads with the extensions say 1 3 9 or something like that anywhere on the fretboard and on whichever the strings. I know most of you prefer chords to be played on the higher 4 strings but I think this will give me a better knowledge of the fretboard. Think that since long ago I construct the chords by myself. I almost don't remember what a chord diagram is. Originally Posted by mike walker
I got rid of 'em since I revised my chord book and found out some mistakes!
Also, does it matter if I play the chords all over the neck? For the vids I've watched jazz players don't use to play on the 1rst frets...or maybe I didn't watch enough vids?
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Hey Claudi,
The Bm7b5 is a leading tone Chord back to C, so it substitutes beautifully for G7.... Check out the notes.... its just missing the route G, which would give ya a nice G9 chord.
Cool mel min wise... leave that until you feel comfy with the Maj modes.
I think you should dare to ask whatever ya like, fella!!!
, plenty of great advice from all the good folks here who I'm sure don't mind in the least.
But you're right, of course.... one thing at a time.
No worries chord wise either. But remember, you can omit certain notes as the chords stack up... (5th is always the first to go for many players)
Try these voicings X 6 5 7 6 x That's a nice Ebma9 voicing then go to this one 6 X 4 5 6 x That's a very common 13th voicing (notice...no 9th..no 5th)
Play chords in many ways.... in one position.... on different string sets, all over the neck,,,, etc etc..
MikeLast edited by mike walker; 09-08-2010 at 10:08 AM.
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Hi, Mike.
Sorry I didn't reply before but I had to meet someone for lunch went back home and my girlfriend was busy with the computer. I'm tired now but tomorrow I'll try to put the chords I've written with all your subs altogether since with so many posts I get a bit lost and I don't want it to happen. Anyway I took the scheme with the melodic minor modes and begun to dig it. After I know that they are melodic minor b3, dorian b2, lydian 5#, lydian dominant b7, mixolydian b6, aeolian b5 and superlocrian b4 the rest are the same as the diatonic intervals. So in a few days I guess I'll master this.
Thanks for your patience. I appreciate it.
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Wow!! You don't mess about!!
Great, man.
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Hi, again mike.
I've been rereading all the posts in this thread and as I told you now I can see from a single chord its modal possibilities. As for some sentences in some explanations that you and reg have written I got aware there was something that I was missing; and that is that in a given chord I normally think of its intervals to get 1 or 2 possible mode choices but didn't dig the notes of the chords and that's why I couldn't understand some transitions from one chord to the next one. Now I can though the thinking makes it slow. I did understand all the subs. In the next hours I'll put my piece with all your subs as I told you before. Again thank you and reg for your patience and explanations.
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Hey, Mike. Here's my analysis of your analysis. Originally Posted by mike walker
Since my piece was:
Tonality C major
Dm7 Em7| Dm7 Em7
I'd play D dorian(preferably), phrygian and aeolian and the E dorian, phrygian(preferably) and aeolian. If I'd play just 1 mode on both chords I'd play Cmajor (ionian) since both chords contain all the natural notes but playing the root, 3rd or 7th of each chord at each chord change.
Am7 G7| Am7 G7
A dorian, phrygian and aeolian(preferably) and G mixolydian.
C Ionian if playing on both chords.
Tonality G major
Gmaj7 Cmaj7
G ionian(preferably) or lydian
Gmaj7 Cmaj7| D7 Em7
The 2 chords in red: D mixolydian and E dorian, phrygian(preferably) and aeolian. G major (ionian) on both chords but accenting the root, 3rd or 7th of each chord at each chord change.
Dm7 Em7| Dm7 Em7
Am7 G7| Am7 G7
Gmaj7 Cmaj7
Gmaj7 Cmaj7| D7 Em7
Your subs: Am7 to Cmaj7 because Cmaj7 has the 3rd, 5th and 7th of Am7 and the 7th of Cmaj7 becomes the 9th of Am7 and it becomes an Am9 chord.
Or Am7 to Fmaj7 because it all could be Fmaj9 and if we blur the 7th of Amin7 it's an Fmaj7.
Fmaj7 to Dmin7 for the same reason why.
Fma7 G7 | Am7 Bm7b5 all for Am7 G7 would be IV V VI VII and back to Cmaj7 and we're back again to the tonality of Cmaj.
Is that right? Tell me whatever that's not correct and I'd like to know your mode preferences. Maybe they coincide with mine...or maybe not!!!
Stay well
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