Dorian mode question

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 03:57 AM

That's funny. I thought ya meant my progression!!

These are fine. First chord is min/ma7 right? In mel and har min.

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 03:59 AM

oh i just sussed it. The / is maj?

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

That's funny. I thought ya meant my progression!!

These are fine. First chord is min/ma7 right? In mel and har min.

Yes, minor 3rd and major 7th. D'you denominate in another way?

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 04:04 AM

With the slash I mean Cmin3/major7.

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 04:06 AM

Many ways. But that's new to me.

Usually small m and triangle.

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

|: 4x553x | 8x896x | 10x101080 | 3x653x | x3201x | 1x011x | 3x331x :|

You mean this progression, right?

I've been watching every key in my computer keyboard and I can't find the way to write a triangle. Sometime I saw some chord with a triangle but never knew what that meant. Thanks for letting me know.

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

That's funny. I thought ya meant my progression!!

These are fine. First chord is min/ma7 right? In mel and har min.

Ah! I think I know what you mean! I wrote all the chord scales and told you that I was gonna study them all and you thought that these are all the possible chord substitutions? Is that what you thought?

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Claudi

Ah! I think I know what you mean! I wrote all the chord scales and told you that I was gonna study them all and you thought that these are all the possible chord substitutions? Is that what you thought?

No. I just thought ya meant the F melodic min progression you refer to in the post above the post above this post.

I had to write that.

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

I think ya got them all now Claudi!!!

Maybe write it out once more and i can check?

I'm in a mess of posts now!

Did you say the above refering to this other post below?

Originally Posted by mike walker

Fma7/sus4 Chord.... cannot be Lydian. Why not? Lydian has an #4.

Ab C D G cannot be an add 4 chord. Why? D is a #4

D E F G C cannot be a sus4, again, Why not? Maybe 11th? Otherwise I give up with this one.

Just go thru it carefully claudi. Look at Reg's response again.

I don't want to hog this thread but if folks don't mind, i'll continue to push ya if you're up for it? Thanks for the patience.

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 05:33 AM

Because you explain to me the last 3 chords and after you send another post saying that I got it, and you said that I got it after writing the chord scales. I don't know, can you explain that?

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 05:34 AM

Because you explain to me the last 3 chords and after you send another post saying that I got it, and you said that I got it after I wrote the chord scales. I don't know, can you explain that?

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Claudi

Because you explain to me the last 3 chords and after you send another post saying that I got it, and you said that I got it after I wrote the chord scales. I don't know, can you explain that?

Jeez Claudi.

I asked Steven Hawkins to sort it out. He said he'd only just figured out The Big Bang and he would not touch this with a long pole.

Seriously, you got it. The changes are good now, man.

**Reg** · 09-13-2010, 10:59 AM

Hey Claudi....
MM
I-maj7 9,11,13
II-7 b9 11 13
bIIImaj7 9 #11 13
IV7 9 #11 13
V7 9 11 b13
VI-7b5 9 11 b13
VII-7b5 b9,#9 b11 b13 * usually called VII7 alt, the b11 becomes 3rd
* can be spelled 1, b9, #9, 3, b5(or #11), b13, b7.

HM
I-maj7 9, 11, b13
II-7b5 b9, 11, 13
bIIImaj7#5 9, 11,13
IV-7 9, #11, 13
V7 b9, 11, b13
bVImaj7 #9, #11, 13
VIIdim7 b9, b11, b13
I would skip HM for now, and the synthetic scales...

**mike walker** · 09-13-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Claudi....
MM
I-maj7 9,11,13
II-7 b9 11 13
bIIImaj7 9 #11 13
IV7 9 #11 13
V7 9 11 b13
VI-7b5 9 11 b13
VII-7b5 b9,#9 b11 b13 * usually called VII7 alt, the b11 becomes 3rd
* can be spelled 1, b9, #9, 3, b5(or #11), b13, b7.

HM
I-maj7 9, 11, b13
II-7b5 b9, 11, 13
bIIImaj7#5 9, 11,13
IV-7 9, #11, 13
V7 b9, 11, b13
bVImaj7 #9, #11, 13
VIIdim7 b9, b11, b13
I would skip HM for now, and the synthetic scales...

Lovely and clear, Reg.

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by mike walker

Jeez Claudi.

I asked Steven Hawkins to sort it out. He said he'd only just figured out The Big Bang and he would not touch this with a long pole.

Seriously, you got it. The changes are good now, man.

Funny comparison, Mike. Yes, when I have the intervals before my eyes I see it all but when I do it by thinking and without hearing it's hard.
Thanks for the extensions, Reg. But these will be applied later...or maybe not!

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Claudi....
I would skip HM for now, and the synthetic scales...

Sorry Reg, but I like every scale I play

. The synthetic scales are the symetrical ones, right? Whole tone and diminished.

**Reg** · 09-13-2010, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Claudi

Sorry Reg, but I like every scale I play

. The synthetic scales are the symetrical ones, right? Whole tone and diminished.

Yes Claudi... and the many more synthetic scales that are not so symmetrical, pentatonic, augmented, the many folk scales, blues has it's scales and harmonic implications. I was only suggesting to fully learn MM and HM first.
You really should learn and understand, what you referred to as extensions of all the chord structures... from all three minors... Nat. MM and HM. Their implied whether your aware or not... so might as well know what your doing. These are the main sources...along with "blue" note implications... for most of what is considered Jazz. Always the Best Reg

**Reg** · 09-13-2010, 08:06 PM

Hey Mike... Sorry if I didn't mention earlier... Your comments are always knowledgeable and always extremely positive... I appreciate your input and perspectives...
Best Reg

**Claudi** · 09-13-2010, 09:04 PM

Hi, Reg and Mike.
Yes, Reg, my intention is to learn Mm and Hm first. Mm because it's the second scale that people in the forum gives importance after the diatonic, and Hm because I have a special weakness for it. The other 3 ones will come later.
Well, I made a 1rst diagnose of these scales and I saw that with the HM and Hm all the chords are different. That's good because if you know what scale you're playing in with a single chord you always know which degree you're playing.
On Mm something similar happens though I have to be aware of the 2 dominant chords and the last 2 min7/b5 chords.
For the Whole Tone scale it's always the same "dominant/b5" chord type. (Can I denominate this chord like this?).
And the diminished scale has 2 different chord types on each of the 2 formulas: whwhwhwh or hwhwhwhw. I know this one is a "handle with care" scale. I'll have to make some approaches to master it.

Reg I agree with your last post refering to Mike.

**Claudi** · 09-14-2010, 03:11 AM

Hi, Mike.
I've been rereading a few times ALL the posts in this thread and everytime I saw everything much clearer. I wrote the scale and your chords in few drafts and saw it all. Well, that's it. Now I have the way to do it in both the diatonic and Mm scales, useful for all the other ones, and now I have to dig it on the guitar and piano. It's a lot of work.
Thank you Reg, Mike, Bako and Tom for all your help and to open my mind on this.

**Reg** · 09-14-2010, 10:41 AM

Hey Claudi... as always, thanks for your kind comments... just a reminder, when using MM, jazz players think of the three dominants... We don't think, hear or spell the 7th degree chord as a -7b5, we spell and hear as Dom.Alt or VII7alt............
1, b9, #9, 3(b11), b5(or #11), b13, b7...
Typically alt refers to a V7b9b13, which is also found in HM 5th degree, which leads to why you often hear MM and HM used together in jazz. The alt. gives you the #11 and #9 or blue note, much more common in jazz.
Best Reg

**Claudi** · 09-14-2010, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

We don't think, hear or spell the 7th degree chord as a -7b5, we spell and hear as Dom.Alt or VII7alt............
1, b9, #9, 3(b11), b5(or #11), b13, b7...
Typically alt refers to a V7b9b13, which is also found in HM 5th degree, which leads to why you often hear MM and HM used together in jazz. The alt. gives you the #11 and #9 or blue note, much more common in jazz.
Best Reg

Thank you, Reg. Good to know this.

**mike walker** · 09-14-2010, 04:40 PM

Thanks Reg and Claudi.

Like a Basie trio. We are.

**Claudi** · 09-14-2010, 09:03 PM

I don't discard the chance of asking you any other doubt I'd have as I develop my playing. I can't stop thinking of chord connections in one single scale, chord scale modulations and from one scale to another. I warn ya!

**Reg** · 10-07-2010, 03:46 PM

Here's a copy of another post, where I tried to explain Modal Basics.
I'm not sure we all understand model concepts... lets talk basics... Key of "C", I'll start with 2nd degree or "D", since I think that's where this thread started.
D dorian, we all know the scale... When we decide to call this collection of notes a mode, rather than a scale, we imply a different harmonic controlling system. For now, we'll keep this modal concept simple... Diatonic. The I chord is always tonic and the most important chord in our new modal world and each of the rest of the chords built on each scale degree of D dorian... is a chord on it's own... All modes have a characteristic pitch, (as we all know), in our D dorian example this pitch would be the 6th degree or "B". So in our D dorian modal world, there are chords with this characteristic pitch and those without.

D-7 tonic chord
E-7 has characteristic chord tone
Fmaj7 no characteristic chord tone
G7 Has C.C.T. but has Tri-tone and will strongly imply Cmaj.
A-7 No C.C.T.
B-7b5 Has C.C.T. but also has Tri-tone and will also strongly imply Cmaj.
Cmaj7 Has C.C.T.

In modal music, I'm talking about Jazz, not church modes or rhythmic modes of 13th century, not 19th and 20th century tonal modal idiom desires to imitate tonal language of 16th century sacred music, folksong having modal features or composers reactions against traditional classical harmony... jazz usage.... were trying to imply or force a chord to be tonic in nature, be the harmonic center of our tonal world. There are many functional forces which force intervals and pitches to stay put or resolve to more stable harmonic collections... If you want more info. check out "Acoustics", the science which deals with the physical aspects of music, Bartholomew's "Acoustics of Music", or Lowerys, "A Guide to Musical Acoustics".
In our example of D dorian, the G7 and the B-7b5 chords have the all powerful Tri-tone which very strongly implies the key of C maj. So if we were trying to imply D dorian we would stay away from those two chords, or be careful how we use them. We would imply our mode, D dorian by calling chords with our characteristic pitch, ( B ), our cadence chords, example of cadence would be...
E-7 to D-7 II-7 to I-7
Cmaj7 to D-7 VIImaj7 to I-7
This is only the starting point of what is implied by calling something modal and is much more useful if you take the time to write out all the examples on your own, rather than be told... but if anyone wants more constructive or working details or help in understanding all the modes, every scale can have modal implication, I'll gladly try... Best Reg ( watch for Jazz Police)