It's a great progression 251

[kris]

I'm curious how you practice and use this famous 2 5 1 ?
Do you operate more on the so-called licks?
Or is the analysis of the scales used more important?
I mean not to play in a mechanical way in the future.

[ragman1]

The tune or the solo usually determines the line. I have no preset licks for solos but quite often use altered sounds on the V and occasionally a lydian sound on the 1. I usually reserve blues sounds for the turnaround.

[Christian Miller]

Exposition-Conflict-Resolution


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[kris]

The tune or the solo usually determines the line. I have no preset licks for solos but quite often use altered sounds on the V and occasionally a lydian sound on the 1. I usually reserve blues sounds for the turnaround.

Do you use 8th movement in solos?
This should probably be a priority for every jazz musician.

[kris]

Exposition-Conflict-Resolution


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I know what that means, but...Determine by what means you do it.

[Christian Miller]

I know what that means, but...Determine by what means you do it.

Depends!

Usually we think of middle bit as being some sort of chromaticism introduced into the prevailing tonality. Obvious example is the altered scale which is quite a tame choice in many ways, but honestly could be anything. Blues can also have a tension function.

I like playing the VII for instance. Then you have something that clashes against the chords.

Transposed motifs are also effective.

You could call this outside playing.

There’s also an analogous process with though. Most typically a dotted quarter, but groupings of 5 and 7 also common. The resolution of this cycle to 1 is felt on a subconscious level.

Really the logic is the same as for playing on vamps with the difference being that you resolution point may be more predetermined by song form. Depending on the song. Rhythm changes gives you 16 bars to play with before you hit B.

Your ‘II V I’ might last for the whole of that time.

Don’t overdo it on the resolution. No one likes it when a story takes too long wrapping up. Same goes for exposition. You can start in media res.

How much of everything depends on the context. Don’t make a violent action movie when the audience expects a Jane Austen adaptation.

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[Christian Miller]

You know or we could define II V I in contrapuntal terms based on its roots in Renaissance cadence but I think everyone will be rolling their eyes at that point.

For jazzers I think ‘II V I’ eventually becomes something much more meta. You start somewhere and you land somewhere al after an interesting journey.

All music is based on the interaction between expectation and surprise. It’s psychology.

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[ragman1]

Do you use 8th movement in solos?

If you mean long streams of eighths like Martino or somebody, no, it's not my style. If you mean do I use eighths in solos, yes, of course, sometimes quite a lot.

Here's a Stella solo I transcribed for the forum in 2024. It's old because I don't transcribe a lot these days but you can see how I generally do it.

[kris]

If you mean long streams of eighths like Martino or somebody, no, it's not my style. If you mean do I use eighths in solos, yes, of course, sometimes quite a lot.

Here's a Stella solo I transcribed for the forum in 2024. It's old because I don't transcribe a lot these days but you can see how I generally do it.

It is good to include the names of the chords over transcriptions.
Stella has a lot of major and minor II, V, I and II V.
Then everything is legible and transparent.
ps.
Everyone thinks in eights, not just Pat Martino.

[kris]

Interesting are the ideas with the pentatonic minor scale in the 251 progression.

[grahambop]

Interesting are the ideas with the pentatonic minor scale in the 251 progression.

yes, on that old video Scofield shows a neat way of playing on a 2-5-1-6 with ascending minor pentatonics. As I recall, he plays Am pentatonic, then Bbm, then Bm, then Cm (these give Dm, G7alt, C lydian and A7alt respectively.)

[kris]

yes, on that old video Scofield shows a neat way of playing on a 2-5-1-6 with ascending minor pentatonics. As I recall, he plays Am pentatonic, then Bbm, then Bm, then Cm (these give Dm, G7alt, C lydian and A7alt respectively.)

+1
This is one of the most interesting methods.
Truly modern sounds are created and everything is explainable and conscious.
The possibilities are endless.

[dconeill]

...

phenomenON

To be fair, iirc the original title contained "fenomen", which is "phenomenon" in at least one language other than English.

[kris]

phenomenON

To be fair, iirc the original title contained "fenomen", which is "phenomenon" in at least one language other than English.

?...sorry...Language correction

[AllanAllen]

I play stuff off the ii or the V arpeggio and resolve to something on the I arpeggio.

I learned dozens of licks, but live, I just use me ear. It’s hard for me to remember licks on stage.

[kris]

I play stuff off the ii or the V arpeggio and resolve to something on the I arpeggio.

I learned dozens of licks, but live, I just use me ear. It’s hard for me to remember licks on stage.

+1
I have a similar problem. I used to practice and memorize a large number of 251 licks.
I didn't play it at concerts or jam sessions at all.
Not that I don't remember those 251, but I just felt like I was playing something not my own.
Perhaps the reason is also in the too few jazz events.

[Mick-7]

I'm curious how you practice and use this famous 2 5 1? Do you operate more on the so-called licks? Or is the analysis of the scales used more important? I mean not to play in a mechanical way in the future.

I really don't know, I'd have to transcribe my own solos, my lines are usually based on the song's melody, or straying from it and then returning to it.

[kris]

I really don't know, I'd have to transcribe my own solos, my lines are usually based on the song's melody, or straying from it and then returning to it.

Ok.
Well, tell me where you get the ideas for your solos...?
For example, the tune Tune up by Miles Davis... These are only progressions of 251.

[James W]

I'm curious how you practice and use this famous 2 5 1 ?
Do you operate more on the so-called licks?
Or is the analysis of the scales used more important?
I mean not to play in a mechanical way in the future.

For me, consideration on how to play a 2-5-1 quickly broadens into the question of how to play jazz in general. I certainly do have licks, but it's also important to understand the scales and how the licks are created in order to vary and embellish them.

[Mick-7]

Ok. Well, tell me where you get the ideas for your solos...?

I just play whatever comes to me.... I did a fair amount of transcribing when I was younger, and learned all the scales, etc., but I consider all that grist for the mill, so to speak. I have to internalize the chord changes of a tune to be able to solo over it well - "well" means being able to execute the lines I hear in my head. But often when I hear someone play an appealing line, I will dissect it.

One trick that I use to help me hear an unfamiliar song's chord changes is to arpeggiate all the chords in various ways in real time.

[kris]

About 40 years ago, I played a lot of these licks.
I had an Aebersold record with only 251 backing tracks in all keys and I played all day.
After that, I tried to use these licks in specific jazz standards.
It was hard work....but quite pleasant..

[grahambop]

phenomenON

To be fair, iirc the original title contained "fenomen", which is "phenomenon" in at least one language other than English.

Kris is Polish.

[Mick-7]

About 40 years ago, I played a lot of these licks. I had an Aebersold record with only 251 backing tracks in all keys and I played all day. After that, I tried to use these licks in specific jazz standards. It was hard work....but quite pleasant..

Do you hear them come out in your playing now?

[kris]

Kris is Polish.

+1
Thanks Graham.
I've already simplified the title.

[Mick-7]

+1
Thanks Graham.
I've already simplified the title.

Frankly, I liked the original nondiatonic title better.