It's a great progression 251

[djg]

It takes quite a bit of effort to internalise anything. Most people simply don't practice them enough, don't take them through keys, take the, through tunes, practice shoehorning them into solos and so on. But things, TBF, just don't stick.

they dont stick because folks do not listen to music anymore. the music seems like such a byproduct these days.

if things dont stick it's because you didnt like them in the first place. if you liked them you'd have listened harder. civilians used to be able and sing along with pops or bird. these days even pros cant do it.

[mr. beaumont]

sometimes just V-I. Sometimes ii I. Sometimes just V if it's not resolving for too long...

[lawson-stone]

I know what that means, but...Determine by what means you do it.

Not speaking as a great soloist here, but I think CM is giving some substance to the old cliche that a solo should "tell a story." I always wondered exactly what that meant since stories use words and music doesn't. But CM notes the classical "plot structure." The exposition of the story lays out the setting and theme, then there is a complication, a problem that emerges (Frodo gets the ring, has to take it to Mordor, bad stuff happens on the way making it hard) followed by attempts at solutions, culminating in the right solution and the restatement of the opening theme.

Musically that makes sense. State a musical idea, then complicated it, then build tensions with attempted resolutions, ending with the "right" one which brings satisfaction to the player and listeners.

BUT: I can type a good solo on a forum, but playing them continues to challenge me. I'm just trying to see if I get what CM is saying. Your opinion on this matters far more than mine does, since you are an accomplished player.

[AllanAllen]

they dont stick because folks do not listen to music anymore. the music seems like such a byproduct these days.

if things dont stick it's because you didnt like them in the first place. if you liked them you'd have listened harder. civilians used to be able and sing along with pops or bird. these days even pros cant do it.

This is a nature vs nurture thing. My wife and 8 year old son just remember melodies. My son will be humming swing tunes in the shower that he has no preference for. They just stick in his head. My wife can sing lyrics to songs from the 90’s she hasn’t heard since.

It drives me absolutely crazy because of how much effort I have to put into playing In A Mellow Tone and I still biffed the head at yesterday’s gig. It’s just slipped my mind as I counted us in.

[joe2758]

As long as one doesn't expect to be able to get all that in 3 bars!

[djg]

This is a nature vs nurture thing. My wife and 8 year old son just remember melodies. My son will be humming swing tunes in the shower that he has no preference for. They just stick in his head. My wife can sing lyrics to songs from the 90’s she hasn’t heard since.

It drives me absolutely crazy because of how much effort I have to put into playing In A Mellow Tone and I still biffed the head at yesterday’s gig. It’s just slipped my mind as I counted us in.

i think that the effort needed is often underestimated. and people used to live with the tunes. they were on the radio. you gotta compensate for that. and there is so much different good music out there to get distracted. you gotta be somewhat single-minded to compensate for that too if your want to immerse yourself in the world of standard jazz. like become a complete jazz nerd for a decade or two.

[kris]

Be-bop is an example of a style where playing 8ths & 8ths triplets in solos are exposed.

[Christian Miller]

Not speaking as a great soloist here, but I think CM is giving some substance to the old cliche that a solo should "tell a story." I always wondered exactly what that meant since stories use words and music doesn't. But CM notes the classical "plot structure." The exposition of the story lays out the setting and theme, then there is a complication, a problem that emerges (Frodo gets the ring, has to take it to Mordor, bad stuff happens on the way making it hard) followed by attempts at solutions, culminating in the right solution and the restatement of the opening theme.

Musically that makes sense. State a musical idea, then complicated it, then build tensions with attempted resolutions, ending with the "right" one which brings satisfaction to the player and listeners.

BUT: I can type a good solo on a forum, but playing them continues to challenge me. I'm just trying to see if I get what CM is saying. Your opinion on this matters far more than mine does, since you are an accomplished player.

Yeah it’s a fairly commonplace observation that a soloist should tell a story. And it strikes me that the means of narrative are somewhat baked into the raw materials we have as musicians. And the three act structure is sort of cheesy but it’s a good way to start thinking about story.

So we think about harmony a lot and it is kind of cool that the II V I has that structure baked into it. But this is something that is repeats at different levels.

(And there’s other formal means too. The golden ratio. AAB is a really powerful one that I use a lot. Dynamics, register etc.)

I’ve been thinking a lot about this because I’ve been playing a lot of modal/vamp stuff. As Per Nilsson put it - a standard does the heavy lifting for you a lot of the time. Making your own fun/form is harder.

But great soloists also create larger forms on standards. I’ve been very much a two chorus guy for most of my “career” probably because I’ve been leaning on the song.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wolflen]

Here is Chris Whiteman’s lesson on using that minor pentatonic “hack” over a ii V I….the term “hack” is not meant to be derogatory

in fact I wish I knew some more

here is a cool idea

two mi7 lines a tri-tone apart voiced 5 1 b3 b7

Gbmi7 Db Gb A E
Cmi7 G C Eb Bb

move this in minor thirds find ways to fit in with Pent scales/Diminished scales and the four dom7 chord arps..A7 Eb7 C7 Gb7

have fun

[kris]

Of course, that's what swing is, syncopated eighths.

But the title of your video is misleading. It says 'eighth notes are best'. Best as opposed to what? Single notes? Obviously. If we didn't have the syncopated eighths it wouldn't sound like what most people recognise as jazz.

But let's be clear, that sound comes from a specific era. These days 'jazz' includes much more than that. Bossa, for example, isn't swung at all. The fusion sound of, say, Scofield is swung but doesn't sound like the old jazz.

So, yes, the swing feel is the jazz feel but it's not limited to jazz. Some baroque music was played with so-called 'uneven notes', not that it sounded much like jazz as we know it.

But, at the end of the day, what are we saying here? That all swung music is jazz? Or that jazz is always swung? Neither is true.

We are talking about playing jazz tunes in a jazzy way.
Here I mean mainly jazz standards.
And mainly about playing jazz solos-improvisations.
I won't say anything new .... Just listen to the improvisation of outstanding jazz musicians.
You can play the same phrase swinging or not swinging.

[JazzPadd]

yes, on that old video Scofield shows a neat way of playing on a 2-5-1-6 with ascending minor pentatonics. As I recall, he plays Am pentatonic, then Bbm, then Bm, then Cm (these give Dm, G7alt, C lydian and A7alt respectively.)

That Scofield bit has given me a lot to chew on! I prefer ideas over prepared licks and that’s quite a generative idea.

[ragman1]

We are talking about playing jazz tunes in a jazzy way.
Here I mean mainly jazz standards.
And mainly about playing jazz solos-improvisations.
I won't say anything new .... Just listen to the improvisation of outstanding jazz musicians.

Why are telling me this?

[grahambop]

That Scofield bit has given me a lot to chew on! I prefer ideas over prepared licks and that’s quite a generative idea.

I found the bit in the video where he covers this, it’s at 43:00 here:

[pauln]

That Scofield bit has given me a lot to chew on! I prefer ideas over prepared licks and that’s quite a generative idea.

Generative is right, One day you'll be trying it out on the B section of This Masquerade...

Ebm7 (Bb minor pent)
Ab(9) (B minor pent)
Dbmaj7 (C minor pent)

and realize
Bb(13) (Db minor pent) !

and more
Ebm7 (F minor pent)
Ab(9) (E minor pent)
Dbmaj7 (Eb minor pent)
etc.

[kris]

Why are telling me this?

Because I have such knowledge, which I have come to myself over the years. I played with great musicians, listened a lot and practiced a lot. I share my knowledge on this subject.
After all, there are different people here and everyone is learning and observing.
I'm also learning all the time.That's why I'm here.

[kris]

I found the bit in the video where he covers this, it’s at 43:00 here:

+1
"On Improvisation" J,Scofield.
This is one of the best educational videos I've watched.
I made an accurate transcription of each note.

[AllanAllen]

here is a cool idea

two mi7 lines a tri-tone apart voiced 5 1 b3 b7

Gbmi7 Db Gb A E
Cmi7 G C Eb Bb

move this in minor thirds find ways to fit in with Pent scales/Diminished scales and the four dom7 chord arps..A7 Eb7 C7 Gb7

have fun

Is this what you mean?

[wolflen]

Is this what you mean?

Yes..

these are coming out of pents..diminished and dom alts and minor 11 flavors

Gbmi11 Chord 4th fret (Gb min pent)
Db
Gb
B
E
A

Cmi11/Eb chord 6th fret (Cmi pent)
Eb
G
C
G 8th fret
C
move this up a min 3rd to Amin and Ebminor

Find other voicings for the chords