It's a great progression 251

[grahambop]

kris is a polski fenomen!

[wolflen]

I'm curious how you practice and use this famous 2 5 1 ?
Do you operate more on the so-called licks?
Or is the analysis of the scales used more important?
I mean not to play in a mechanical way in the future.

I discovered new sounds from standard 2 5 1 ..using the inversions of the chords..in some sequences it has a very cool
outside interval feel.

Also as some have said..use various pent scales/arps..

[Christian Miller]

Kris needs to start a fusion band called Fenomen


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[Mick-7]

I discovered new sounds from standard 2 5 1 ..using the inversions of the chords..in some sequences it has a very cool
outside interval feel.

Also as some have said..use various pent scales/arps..

Funny you should mention that, I noticed it in some of the fiddle tunes I've been playing lately from this book, some pretty far out phrases in there -- One Thousand Fiddle Tunes - Amazon.com

Here's another big collection of fiddle tunes that is free -- https://violinsheetmusic.org/files/d...collection.pdf

("Ryan's Mammoth Collection" here: Collections of Violin Sheet Music )

[Rob MacKillop]

2: where am I going?
5: I’m lost
1: Ah, home!

[garybaldy]

2: where am I going?
5: I’m lost
1: Ah, home!

When I get to the 1 I seem to have changed key!

[kris]

Do you hear them come out in your playing now?

Yes... I have some modified licks of Pat Martino.

[kris]

kris is a polski fenomen!

You are nice...:-).

[kris]

Kris needs to start a fusion band called Fenomen


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Great idea...:-)

[pauln]

Here's what I transcribed from what I played Friday night, (16th notes?) from the 251 first ending of the A section of Just Friends, with the lead in from the previous harmony interpreted as G6/F (or inverted G13)

VI7 | II7 - V7 | IM7 (C)

VI7 - last two beats descend Gb Eb B G, descend A Gb Db G
II7 - ascend D E F Ab C , enclosure Ab E G F
V7 - ascend F B Eb G Bb descend Ab G F
IM7 -

As a trio I have freedom to do things like treating a ii7 as an eleventh chord in which I play the major third, or treating it as a ivdim, many other perversions that sound nice.

I observe that many of the things I play sound right in completely different functional environments to the point that not naming them but knowing them as sounds is best. Basically, any particular harmony is likely to be somewhere in a series of expressions from simple to complex (reharmonized), so practically I don't try to "touch bottom" to grasp it - I just know and recognize a lot of ways to manifest or express a harmonic context I hear in many ways.

Musical judgement rules by ear because some expressions that sound nice in a particular harmonic context don't work with another context even though the same "chord context" occurs in both. This means the application context is much wider than a single "chord" but must include surrounding, especially previous chords.

An example is a line like the one above (the ascending part for the 2 chord); the line is a diminished sound with a b3, and does not work with a "typical" initiating ii7 of a 251, but does work if the previous chord is some kind of VI7.

I think it is maybe because one must be aware of and consider the "distance" from partial vs terminal resolutions, or monitor shifty "tonal centers", or something like these by a different name.

[dconeill]

Kris is Polish.

Kris' English is a world better than my Polish.

[kris]

Kris' English is a world better than my Polish.

I have a major specialization in "jazz language" due to my profession and passion...

[ragman1]

I don 't know what's going on here. I see Fenomen has gone. That's a shame, that was great fun.

Well, you asked what I did with 8ths and I showed you. That turned out to be a lesson in transcription presentation which I'm sure no one needs, and the instruction that only streamed eighths are any good in jazz.

I don't think I need this. I play what I hear and feel as I'm doing it and I'm basically a 'short phrases' player. I like it that way, it's conversational. Maybe you need a brain operation to be able to play constant eighths like a machine. Not for me, thanks.

Frankly, I never think about 2-5-1's, no reason why I should. It might be all right for beginners to sweat over the '2-5-1' but I'm a bit past that. The 2-5-1 is (usually) just the end of the tune or the solo. So just play it. Big deal.

Connecting chords is more important, especially when there's no apparent connection, like the A7 to Cm in Stella or one of Shorter's crazy tunes. Or Bill Evans, or one of them. Just coming to the end of a standard is really not a problem. I mean, if you've played it all the way through why should ending it be a problem?

I don't like constant streams of eighths like Martino or any of the other players who use them (don't list them for me, I already know them). They grate on me. They grate on quite a few people according to what I read frequently.

So what's this thread about then? The phenomenon of the 251? Why is it a 'phenomenon'? A phenomenon, according to the dictionary, is something extraordinary, exceptional or abnormal. Someone explain it to me, I'm getting old.

[ragman1]

It was quite hard to find but here's a Bernstein transcription. Don't look at this if you have a nervous disposition because what's missing is the CONSTANT EIGHTHS.

But, as we know, poor old Peter's not very good at jazz. Never mind.

[kris]

We don't understand each other at all.
I don't mean playing eights like a machine gun all the time.
I mean the way of thinking with eights.
From the eighth thinking come the basics of understanding swing.
Triplet-eighth thinking for playing standard-swinging jazz.
Thinking with straight eights for playing related styles like Latin, funk etc.
I would think of doing an analysis of the rhythm sections because it would show where it comes from.
f. ex...:
The simplest thing - bass plays quarter-note walking.
And in improvisation, the soloist thinks with eights, which does not mean that he is constantly playing eights.
These are the basics of jazz education.This is why fluent phrases are created.
Just check in every educational material – this is the basis of jazz improvisation.

[brent.h]

It’s hard for me to remember licks on stage.

I have a similar problem.

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I gave up on the 'licks-from-masters approach'; too much effort to internalise, to practise/apply, then to retrieve it live.

Interestingly, when I write my own lines (long or short), they tend to appear on stage.

Recently, fragments of melodies are appearing in my playing in the place of licks. I think it's my practice routine of playing multiple songs as a medley in one key. I'd take tunes of a similar tempo and just play them one after another in the key of say Eb, and the melodies 'bleed' (?) into each other. Almost something like speaking in English and then another word from another language creeps into the speech.

...
I mean the way of thinking with eights.
From the eighth thinking come the basics of understanding swing.
Triplet-eighth thinking for playing standard-swinging jazz.
Thinking with straight eights for playing related styles like Latin, funk etc.
I would think of doing an analysis of the rhythm sections because it would show where it comes from.
f. ex...:
The simplest thing - bass plays quarter-note walking.
And in improvisation, the soloist thinks with eights, which does not mean that he is constantly playing eights.
These are the basics of jazz education.This is why fluent phrases are created.
Just check in every educational material – this is the basis of jazz improvisation.

I think I know what you are referring to. I might be wrong.

It's like a mental 'grid'. In disco tunes, the grid is the 16th note (subdivision). Strumming the guitar in a rhythmic way with well-placed hits on certain 16th notes within that grid (like Nile Rodgers for example) will sound exciting.

Personally, my grid for jazz shifts a lot.

I hear most jazz in two-feel, so two big half beats a bar. My internal clock is going 'ONE... TWO... ONE... TWO...'

Most times my grid looks like 16th notes counting to me (but it's eighth notes to you if you feel jazz in four):
ONE-ee-and-uh...TWO-ee-and-uh...

Sometimes my grid looks like triplet counting to me (but I'm actually playing quarter note triplets or 3:2 polyrhythm to you):
ONE-pe-let...TWO-pe-let...

Recently, I've been listening to so much New Orleans trad music that my grid is changing again! In trad jazz, the habanera dance rhythm is everywhere, so now I am starting to hear/feel:
ONE... uh-TWO... and
ONE... uh-TWO... and

[ragman1]

We don't understand each other at all.

Thank you for putting it that way.

I don't mean playing eights like a machine gun all the time.

Okay.

I mean the way of thinking with eights.
From the eighth thinking come the basics of understanding swing.
Triplet-eighth thinking for playing standard-swinging jazz.
Thinking with straight eights for playing related styles like Latin, funk etc.

Absolutely.

I would think of doing an analysis of the rhythm sections because it would show where it comes from.
f. ex...:
The simplest thing - bass plays quarter-note walking.
And in improvisation, the soloist thinks with eights, which does not mean that he is constantly playing eights.
These are the basics of jazz education.This is why fluent phrases are created.

Again, agreed.

Just check in every educational material – this is the basis of jazz improvisation.

Yes, I know, although it's one of those tenets that's subject to interpretation. We must use eighths, in fact we should use all the notes, but different players use them in different ways, there's no only one way. Just think how boring it would be if every player did the same thing.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I gave up on the 'licks-from-masters approach'; too much effort to internalise, to practise/apply, then to retrieve it live.

It takes quite a bit of effort to internalise anything. Most people simply don't practice them enough, don't take them through keys, take the, through tunes, practice shoehorning them into solos and so on. But things, TBF, just don't stick.

The other thing is almost everyone chooses material that's too long. Plus, the shorter it is, the easier it is to make it your own. II-V licks are the main thing, not II-V-I licks. More flexible - you can apply a II V lick to any dominant, and then work on resolving in different - for instance in IV-I's and backdoors and tritone stubs and so on. One measure's worth of material seems about ideal.

That said, if you take care of the playing side of it, more of it is to do with the ears. It's taken me a depressingly long time to realise how much work gets done just by listening. It's the main thing really. That's one reason why "transcription" is so good - you have to listen to it over and over, if you can't recognise the thing right away. And if you recognise the thing right away, you already have it.

Can you sing the thing?

Then if you've practiced all your scales and arpeggios like a good little guitar student (big if, but it's only 15 minutes a day or something and when it's done, it's done) you should be able to get the notes out with increasing accuracy.

People make a big deal about this, but if this seems like witchcraft, it's probably because your "brain signal" isn't strong enough. In practical terms, you have to know the music well enough so that you can hear when you are playing the right notes and when you are playing the wrong notes, and making corrections. After a while, you'lll get better at it, but if you don't know what you are playing is meant to sound like and can hear the difference, you don't have a chance.

I think most guitarists play the guitar before they know what they are trying to achieve. It's a terrible distraction. Maybe it's good to practice having it on your lap and not playing it.

In fact the aim of transcription is not necessarily to "lift" phrases, but to make you into an actual musician. That said many people have done well with the 'stealing licks' thing. Probably depends how your brain works.

In terms of live performance, it's important to cultivate the mindset of not giving a **** what comes out of your instrument. A lot easier said than done. If you expect what you are practicing to come out on the gig, you will be perpetually frustrated.

Instead, separate practice and performance from each other in your mind.

[kris]

But all jazz musicians do the same thing – that is, they play jazz.
8 thinking is directly related to the construction of jazz phrases.
These phrases do not necessarily have to be 8th when improvising.
It can be practically any note value.There may be a so-called 'space'.
But all this is related to swing phrasing growing out of the eighth pulse.

[Christian Miller]

But all jazz musicians do the same thing – that is, they play jazz.
8 thinking is directly related to the construction of jazz phrases.
These phrases do not necessarily have to be 8th when improvising.
It can be practically any note value.There may be a so-called 'space'.
But all this is related to swing phrasing growing out of the eighth pulse.

I don't think I'd go as far to say that swing phrasing grows out of the 8th pulse. I know quite a lot of people who play loads of 8th notes and don't swing at all lol (no names)...

And of course there are streams of 8th notes all over in baroque music and so on (and no, notes inégales is not the same thing as swing, and no, Bach was not a bloody jazz musician.)

Obviously especially at higher tempos jazz phrasing is dominated by a duple subdivision of the beat. Whether you call that 8ths or 16ths in cut time or whatever, is not so important. (I personally like feeling faster tempos in half time.)

So there's layers.The most important are the 3/4 and 3/2 superpositions, the clave and the correct position of the upbeat pocket. These are things that make the 8th notes swing, add the all-important spice and flavour.

I think Brad Mehldau put it best regarding the nature of syncopation. In European music syncopation is something done to subvert expectation and create tension. In jazz and related music, syncopation (the correct, idiomatic syncopation) is a default. You find this in all African Diaspora musics.

[ragman1]

all this is related to swing phrasing growing out of the eighth pulse.

Of course, that's what swing is, syncopated eighths.

But the title of your video is misleading. It says 'eighth notes are best'. Best as opposed to what? Single notes? Obviously. If we didn't have the syncopated eighths it wouldn't sound like what most people recognise as jazz.

But let's be clear, that sound comes from a specific era. These days 'jazz' includes much more than that. Bossa, for example, isn't swung at all. The fusion sound of, say, Scofield is swung but doesn't sound like the old jazz.

So, yes, the swing feel is the jazz feel but it's not limited to jazz. Some baroque music was played with so-called 'uneven notes', not that it sounded much like jazz as we know it.

But, at the end of the day, what are we saying here? That all swung music is jazz? Or that jazz is always swung? Neither is true.

[brent.h]

sorry kris, im re-reading your original post and your comments. i don't quite understand what you are asking.

(topic 1) post #1: you're asking about what we do over a 251 portion of the song

(topic 2) post #4, 45: you're talking about the importance of the eighth-note pulse

what do these two topics have to do with each other?

i don't think the ordinary listener cares so much about what we're doing over a 251 or if we are referencing an eighth-note pulse. i'm not saying what we're discussing/doing is not important, but i'm thinking about a larger picture.. i think most listeners care more about melody, being entertained, and having a good night out with drinks lol

[ragman1]

i think most listeners care more about melody, being entertained, and having a good night out with drinks lol

Yes, but the musical work that goes into being able to entertain them...

[alltunes]

Here is Chris Whiteman’s lesson on using that minor pentatonic “hack” over a ii V I….the term “hack” is not meant to be derogatory

in fact I wish I knew some more

[joe2758]

Even the one teacher I know of who teaches an essentially all licks approach (to learning...not the goal) said if something like 10% of phrases learned stick that is very good. He says you just have to learn that many.