Cmaj7 to C#dim7th

[pamosmusic]

Best scale on G13b9 is F melodic minor

Fight me


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you can take the kid out of the barry harris workshop but you can’t take the Barry Harris workshop out of the kid

But not I will not fight you. That sound rules.

[Mick-7]

Best scale on G13b9 is F melodic minor. Fight me.

C harmonic minor is nice too (has the Abo7 arp in it, F melodic minor does not ) - and diminished and.... a few of the pentatonic scales I posted in my Slonimsky thread.

Oh, you said G13, make it C harmonic major.

[Christian Miller]

C harmonic minor is nice too (has the Abo7 arp in it, F melodic minor does not ) - and diminished and.... a few of the pentatonic scales I posted in my Slonimsky thread.

Oh, you said G13, make it C harmonic major.

Harmonic major isn’t as nice. That augmented second leap is melodically problematic


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[rpjazzguitar]

As usual, there's something about the discussion that goes over, or past, my head.

G13b9. The chord tones are all white keys except the b9. So, lower the A to Ab. Now you have G B D F Ab E.

As usual, there's a question about the 4th, C. This is the so-called avoid note. If you leave it out you have a useful hexatonic scale (It always seems to me that thinking in hexatonics makes a lot of sense, but not quite as much sense as thinking chord tones and harmonic context). If you include it you get C harmonic major.

It's a dominant with a b9. Typically, in that situation the #9 will also work. Then you have G B D F Ab Bb E. Which is Fmelmin.

Another possibility is adding the #11. If you do that, you get G B C# D F Ab Bb E. If you re-order those notes G Ab, Bb B, C# D, E F, it's easier to see G HW diminished. The chord could then be seen as G13b9#11.

The 3 half step interval in the harmonic major doesn't bother me. I'm not going to be running the scale. I'm going to be playing ideas, or, at least, trying to.

If I include all the notes in any of the aforementioned scales, I get G Ab Bb B C C# D E F. Nine notes. The only ones missing are the natural 9th, because you have both altered ninths and the chord is G13b9; D# because it's a 13th chord which doesn't call for a b13; and F# because it's a dominant chord and you don't want to lose the flavor (recognizing a past thread about Wes doing exactly that and sounding great).

So, the real "avoid" notes are A D# and F#. Of course, if your line is strong enough you can make them sound great.

Then, as a practical matter, this is a lot of math-like thinking. On the bandstand, if I'm thinking at all (always a terrible idea, but it happens) I'd be thinking 7b9 or, maybe, E7 over G7. The latter gives G B D F E Ab, which is the original hexatonic mentioned above.

And, finally, a caveat about the term "avoid note". It doesn't bother me. If you're playing Has Anybody Seen My Gal, you probably don't want a C in your G7. I'm aware that great players can use any note and sound great. But, for me, there are chord tones and unambiguously consonant extensions and then there are other notes, some of which are more consonant than others. If I have to refer to them, I might use the word "avoid" while recognizing that others choose differently.

[Mick-7]

If I include all the notes in any of the aforementioned scales, I get G Ab Bb B C C# D E F. Nine notes.

Which is the diminished scale except for the additional note 'C'. I still have the habit of recommending scales even though I no longer think about them when improvising. At a certain point they become limiting for the reason you mentioned: all 12 tones are viable melodic material. But I still find the symmetrical scales like diminished and whole tone useful as fingerboard patterns.

Harmonic major isn’t as nice. That augmented second leap is melodically problematic.

Don't see why it would be, Ab & B are chord tones and in the diminished scale, et. al.

[Christian Miller]

Which is the diminished scale except for the additional note 'C'. I still have the habit of recommending scales even though I no longer think about them when improvising. At a certain point they become limiting for the reason you mentioned: all 12 tones are viable melodic material. But I still find the symmetrical scales like diminished and whole tone useful as fingerboard patterns.



Don't see why it would be, Ab & B are chord tones and in the diminished scale, et. al.

Bb sounds more idiomatic almost always, unless it's an octave displacement/pivot.

If you are making up your own musical language carte blanche you can do what you like. I'm talking about idiomatic jazz lines.

[Christian Miller]

There's also a type of compound two octave scale Warne Marsh used to teach called dominant II

1sst octave dominant/mixolydian up to the b7 and then it morphs into the melodic minor

So

C D E F G A Bb C Db Eb F G A
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1 b9 #9 11 5 13

It sounds sick, as the kids say

Sonny Dallas's son posted in the comments to note - 'actually these were my dad's chord scales' which I found hilarious and wonderful.

[Mick-7]

Bb sounds more idiomatic almost always, unless it's an octave displacement/pivot.

If you are making up your own musical language carte blanche you can do what you like. I'm talking about idiomatic jazz lines.

If a Abo7 or G13b9 arpeggio over a G13b9 chord is not idiomatic, I guess I don't know what the term means.

Whereas I'm pretty sure that playing, say, the F# Marwa or C Marwa that, indian scales, over G13b9, would not be idiomatic.

F# Marwa is: F#-G-A#-C-C#-D-F
C Marwa is: C-Db-E-F#-G-Ab-B

[pamosmusic]

If a Abo7 or G13b9 arpeggio over a G13b9 chord is not idiomatic, I guess I don't know what the term means.

Whereas I'm pretty sure that playing, say, the F# Marwa or C Marwa that, indian scales, over G13b9, would not be idiomatic.

F# Marwa is: F#-G-A#-C-C#-D-F
C Marwa is: C-Db-E-F#-G-Ab-B

Idiomatic means that not only are the notes correct, but that they sound like jazz.

Your playing is lovely — is effective communication but not idiomatic.

Your lines are hip — is idiomatic.

[Christian Miller]

I’ve come to think the generation that developed modern jazz theory actually had very little interest in idiom. They sort of expected people to get it from listening and transcribing.

Also a lot of it is about suggesting a pathway forwards for improvisers (as it seemed in the 60s and 70s) or at least equipping players to deal with things like fusion.

As that organic relationship with music faded a bit it’s probably unsurprising that younger players are so interested in Barry Harris because he focusses so tightly on idiom.

I went to a jam with many players that are still at college the other night and most of them were playing idiomatic classic jazz language of that era to an impressively high level. It seems to be in fashion atm.

I think players like Emmett Cohen and Pasquale Grasso are hugely influential.


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[ragman1]

What fascinates me is that so many people follow players like Rosenwinkle, Bernstein, Scofield, Lund, Lage, and so on, who don't play what is regarded as real jazz vocab or bebop like they used to in the 50's.

But apparently everyone wants to learn that traditional style. All the books, YouTube lessons, etc, are about that. Open to correction, naturally.

[pamosmusic]

What fascinates me is that so many people follow players like Rosenwinkle, Bernstein, Scofield, Lund, Lage, and so on, who don't play what is regarded as real jazz vocab or bebop like they used to in the 50's.

But apparently everyone wants to learn that traditional style. All the books, YouTube lessons, etc, are about that. Open to correction, naturally.

Its almost like people can like and be interested in more than one thing at a time.

Its also almost like people are interested in modern music but recognize bebop as foundational.

Also plenty of people are just into bop.

Also not sure I’d agree about Peter Bernstein not having real jazz vocab. He is deeply traditional — maybe more Monk than Bird but still.

Also loads of books are about modern jazz stuff.

Soooooooooo …… not sure how you got on this one Ragman

[ragman1]

Well, I could find YouTubes of, say, Joe Pass or a hundred others and contrast them with, say, what Rosenwinkle or Scofield are doing and make the difference all too obvious.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I could find YouTubes of, say, Joe Pass or a hundred others and contrast them with, say, what Rosenwinkle or Scofield are doing and make the difference all too obvious.

Has literally nothing to do with what I said but

… for what it’s worth, you could also post videos of Rosenwinkel on Intuit or Sco on So Near So Far and hear pretty clearly that traditional vocabulary is very much foundational to what they do, even if they’ve moved into other things.

not that that’s particularly relevant to the fact the people can like and be interested in learning more than one thing at a time.

But ragmans gonna ragman

[Christian Miller]

If you actually look at the notes Pete plays at least more recently he steers clear of a lot of the obvious vocab. But he always manages to sound in the tradition. I think it’s because he plays the song.


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[jameslovestal]

When the term "real" is used this often indicates a strawman POV: E.g. "that is regarded as real jazz vocab or bebop like they used to in the 50's.".

What Christian said "steers clear of a lot of the obvious vocab" is a more flexible way of stating what I'm hearing.

[ragman1]

Has literally nothing to do with what I said

It didn't need replying to. Of course anyone can like more than one thing. And is bebop foundational? Foundational to what?

[ragman1]

he always manages to sound in the tradition. I think it’s because he plays the song.

Exactly, but not the same way. That's the point.

[pamosmusic]

Exactly, but not the same way. That's the point.

What was?

[ragman1]

What was?

If you actually look at the notes Pete plays at least more recently he steers clear of a lot of the obvious vocab.

Wake yourself up, soldier, it's the weekend.

[pamosmusic]

Open to correction, naturally.

I knew it was too good to be true

[GuyBoden]

What fascinates me is that so many people follow players like Rosenwinkle, Bernstein, Scofield, Lund, Lage, and so on, who don't play what is regarded as real jazz vocab or bebop like they used to in the 50's.

But apparently everyone wants to learn that traditional style. All the books, YouTube lessons, etc, are about that. Open to correction, naturally.

Stream wave by ragman | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

[rpjazzguitar]

A guitarist named Andre Bush was known for considering all notes as equal. Chord tone, extension, whatever, all the same to him. His favorite music was heavy metal (he told me that). And, he played jazz like a high energy metal player with outside sounds, for want of a better description.

What might come as a surprise was that Andre was fully capable of playing jazz standards with a conventional jazz approach and sounding great doing it. He said, at one point, "if I couldn't do this (old school jazz) I couldn't do that (high energy dissonant style)".

Andre passed too young.

[55bar]

Best scale on G13b9 is F melodic minor

Fight me


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Sounds SUS to me


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[Christian Miller]

Sounds SUS to me


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Stop it I know you aren’t Gen Z


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