Cmaj7 to C#dim7th

[deacon Mark]

This I don't know exactly how to explain but I can play through the change no problem. Take the tune. THE SONG IS YOU. The first 4 bars are as usual
Cma7, Ebdim7th, Dmin7, G7.

I get and understand that going from the CM7 to eBdim7 is really a substitute for an A7. In fact, to me I would rather approach the change as an A7th.
However, the next 4 bars are

Cmaj7, C#dim7th, Dmin7, to G7.
This confuses me as such and what is it a substitute for? I almost think of it as a substitute for a c7th but not sure. Basically, is there a difference between the two 4 bar phrases, I have played the tune for years but finally decided I need to get some analysis under me just for kicks.

[PMB]

I'd say it's the other way around. C#dim7 is a rootless A7b9.

[pamosmusic]

This I don't know exactly how to explain but I can play through the change no problem. Take the tune. THE SONG IS YOU. The first 4 bars are as usual
Cma7, Ebdim7th, Dmin7, G7.

I get and understand that going from the CM7 to eBdim7 is really a substitute for an A7. In fact, to me I would rather approach the change as an A7th.
However, the next 4 bars are

Cmaj7, C#dim7th, Dmin7, to G7.
This confuses me as such and what is it a substitute for? I almost think of it as a substitute for a c7th but not sure. Basically, is there a difference between the two 4 bar phrases, I have played the tune for years but finally decided I need to get some analysis under me just for kicks.

drumrollllll

it’s a substitute for A7.

long answer:

the Ebdim7 is functionally a sub for A7, meaning its job is to get to Dm7, and so is the A7. So you’re totally cool when you play an A7 there. People do that a lot and vice versa.

But it’s not a chord synonym for A7 … Eb Gb A and C don’t really fit into the A7 harmony in a super straightforward way. You could squeeze them in I guess … but you can’t just drop in an A7 any time you see Ebdim7 because often that diminished chord will be doing some other job.

———

C#dim7 is a straightforward chord synonym for A7b9 …

A7 is A C# E G Bb …

C#dim7 is … C# E G Bb

So you can swap them out for each as you like.

[PMB]

One common substitute for the I is iii so you can treat Cmaj7, C#dim7, Dm7, G7 as Em7, A7, Dm7, G7.

The I can also treated as vi, its relative minor (C6-Am7). Pete and I mentioned that C#dim7 = A7b9. Similarly, Ebdim7 = D7b9. With that in mind, a simplified view of the opening to The Song Is You could be:

Am7 / / / | D7 / / / | Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / |

Em7 / / / | A7 / / / | Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / |

[rpjazzguitar]

To my ear that Ebdim7 sounds exactly right for a vanilla version.

Maybe it's a sound that should stand alone and not be understood as a sub for something else.

But, this is the internet.

The vanilla non-dim7 chord that I hear there is B7 with a little wiggle when there's a C in the melody, making it B7b9. That has almost the same notes as Ebdim7 (the B is the outlier, and it's in the melody).

C to B7 is a sound that is worth being able to recognize.

Then, a quick Em7 Ebm7 Dm7 descending thing and you're done with this part of the tune.

B7 type chords can often lead to Em. You have a choice as how to to analyze the Ebm7. It's a variant on a tritone sub. There may be a modal interchange hypothesis.

All that's over my head. I have it as, you're holding an Em7 and you're heading to Dm7, do you need a theoretical treatise to interpolate and play an Ebm7?

[Christian Miller]

Ebdim7 isn’t really a sub for A7.

Well it’s a thing that goes between C and a Dm7 so it is similar in terms of function but in terms of how it fits melodies and the nature of the voice leading and its colour is really quite different.

It’s closer to D7.

But you can drive an A7 truck through it and it works esp for a fast tune like TSIY. But you’ll notice it more on slower tunes like Embraceable You where it might seem dissonant:

C#o7 IS a sub for A7(9). It’s the same thing with a different bass note.


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[pamosmusic]

All that's over my head. I have it as, you're holding an Em7 and you're heading to Dm7, do you need a theoretical treatise to interpolate and play an Ebm7?

We’re talking about Ebdim7, right?

Still true … there isn’t really any theoretical basis for it in a lot of situations, but it’s just a voiceleading chord. Sounds good so it is good.

Understanding what it’s doing — getting from C to Dm — is the important bit because then you can come up with other things that work. Your Ebm7, OP’s A7, PMB’s simplified version making it D7 for a stretch. And in all of those you’ll get that little rub of disagreement between the soloist and the accompanist but it’ll sound good.

Jazz is so cool.

[rpjazzguitar]

We’re talking about Ebdim7, right?

Still true … there isn’t really any theoretical basis for it in a lot of situations, but it’s just a voiceleading chord. Sounds good so it is good.

Understanding what it’s doing — getting from C to Dm — is the important bit because then you can come up with other things that work. Your Ebm7, OP’s A7, PMB’s simplified version making it D7 for a stretch. And in all of those you’ll get that little rub of disagreement between the soloist and the accompanist but it’ll sound good.

Jazz is so cool.

I was talking about a quick Ebm7 as part of a chromatic move to Dm7.

I didn't have much to add about the Ebdim7 that's the second chord. Just that it's more like a B7 to my ear than A7. Then after that, the B7 goes to Em7 then Ebm7 then Dm7.

In case my post wasn't clear.

[BreckerFan]

I don't know that this is how the use originated, but both chords fall out of A half-whole diminished. You can build a diatonic diminished 7th chord from each of the 8 notes in the scale. You can move a diminished 7th chord up or down by a minor third without changing any of the notes being voiced. Because half whole diminished is the combination of two diminished 7th arpeggios a half step apart, you get two families of chords voicing two different sets of tensions, 3, 7, b9, 5 and b5, R, #9, 13. C#dim7 is the first family, Ebdim7 the second.

[Bob_Ross]

I have it as, you're holding an Em7 and you're heading to Dm7, do you need a theoretical treatise to interpolate and play an Ebm7?

We used to just call it a "Passing Chord"
:::shrugs:::

[PMB]

Just want to make it clear that my simplification is a harmonic one. What you choose to play around those chord tones is up for grabs.

In this instance, I feel that D7 for Ebdim7 is less of a stretch than B7. Both dominants contain three notes of the Ebdim7 plus a borrowed note from the diminished scale which happens to be their roots:

Ebdim7 = Eb, F#, A, C
D7 = (D), F#, A, C
B7 = (B), D#/Eb, F#, A

So why would I tend towards D7? It's all about context. D7 leads more directly to D-7.

If the initial progression was reversed - Ebdim7 (or its synonym Cdim7) to Cmaj7, I'd be more likely to treat it as B7. Think of the common tone sub often heard for the opening of Misty: Cdim7 to Cmaj7. That could be expressed as B7 moving to Em7 on a 'C' bass.

[PMB]

Enough talk! Here are arpeggios I set out in #4 in the RH over the original chords in the LH:

Cmaj7(Am7) Ebdim7(D7) D-7 G7 Cmaj7(Em7) C#dim7(A7) D-7 G7

[ragman1]

This I don't know exactly how to explain but I can play through the change no problem.

I'd be happy with that if I were you.

I need to get some analysis under me just for kicks.

Oh, well, have fun. I'll pray for you :-)

[pamosmusic]

If the initial progression was reversed - Ebdim7 (or its synonym Cdim7) to Cmaj7, I'd be more likely to treat it as B7. Think of the common tone sub often heard for the opening of Misty: Cdim7 to Cmaj7. That could be expressed as B7 moving to Em7 on a 'C' bass.

Or, say, the end of the bridge in The Song is You

I guess it’s a little different coming from that E major stretch.

Anyway … I love that chord. I was playing Heartaches yesterday.

[Christian Miller]

I like a B triad on Ebo7

C B F E triads

Cmaj7 Ebo7 D-7 G7

In terms of what is it and where does it come from?

It's a straight chromatic interpolation between D-7 (F6) and C6

C E G A - C6
C Eb Gb A - Ebo7
C D F A - D-7

Works either way

[ragman1]

chromatic interpolation

Is that posh for passing chord?

[ragman1]

We used to just call it a "Passing Chord"

I did smile at that but, on reflection, I don't think it's as simple as that. Without wanting to complicate it, that is.

The C - C#o - Dm isn't really a passing chord as such. It is a passing chord, of course, but also has a dual function as a rootless sub for A7b9, the V of Dm. Also the C#o is the leading vii chord into its tonic of Dm in D harmonic minor. And that Dm also has a dual function as the ii of G7 in C.

However, the C - Ebo - Dm is a different animal. It's not resolving into Dm in the sense the C#o does. I'd certainly say it's a passing chord between C and Dm. I think someone's already pointed out that Em is the iii sub for CM7 so that Ebo can also definitely be seen as a passing chord between that sound and the Dm.

I think someone said it was a sort of twisted version of A7 but I'd dispute that. Or, rather, I wouldn't because this theory stuff is highly malleable and open to all sorts of interpretation so it doesn't really matter as long as it makes some sort of weird sense. I'd say the Ebo sort of takes the place of the A7. Does that make sense? It might be a variation of Eb7b5. That's not a bad idea.

I know one thing, they can't be improvised over the same way. Diminished chords going up aren't the same as diminished chords going down. You can use D harmonic m over the C#o because it's directly part of that key. But not so the Ebo. The E harmonic minor doesn't sound right there. It needs a diminished scale or some other notes to give it significance. And there are several options like the wholetone sound, the melodic minor sound, even the major scale sound. They all work. Not only that but they too have various options because every note of a dim chord can be the root. So it all becomes very interesting.

That's it, sorry. I swore I was going to stay out of this but...

[djg]

I like a B triad on Ebo7

C B F E triads

Cmaj7 Ebo7 D-7 G7

In terms of what is it and where does it come from?

It's a straight chromatic interpolation between D-7 (F6) and C6

C E G A - C6
C Eb Gb A - Ebo7
C D F A - D-7

Works either way

me too. B/C for Ebdim. i remember playing witchcraft (in G)with JvR many moons ago and he had this F# triad for the second chord Bbdim. it sounded fantastic. he still does it:

[Christian Miller]

me too. B/C for Ebdim. i remember playing witchcraft (in G)with JvR many moons ago and he had this F# triad for the second chord Bbdim. it sounded fantastic. he still does it:

Yeah, it's a nice way of getting out of using diminished arpeggios without going crazy on patterns and things.

Saw JvR the other week with Peter Bernstein incidentally...

[Christian Miller]

Is that posh for passing chord?

Not really. I was using it to mean 'interpolation', as in linear interpolation between two points.

So A7 (or C#o7) is not an interpolation between Dm7 and C6 in the same way.

C D F A
C# E G A
C D F A

C D F A
C# E G Bb
C D F A

[Question]

Lots of valid and interesting ideas. Diminished harmony will probably always (thankfully) remain a sort of opaque mystery.

As Brecker Fan pointed out, both the C#dim as well as the Eb dim chords are contained in a C# whole/half diminished chord scale.

However on the Eb diminished chord in "The Song is You" there is a B natural (and C) in the melody, which to my ear implies (if we want to get harmonically pedantic about it) using an Eb whole-half diminished scale.

This means: C# whole-half for C# dim. chord, and Eb whole-half for the Eb dim. chord. Which, incidentally are not the same scale.

I think most advanced improvisers are seldom so strict about these scale choices, but it might be helpful to at least try the two scale sounds against the chords to hear what I am talking about.

Using the "wrong" chord-scale can often sound weak, but on the other hand, always using the "right" chord scale can often sound very boring. It is often the "wrong" notes that an improviser purposefully uses that I find most intriguing.

[Jonah]

I think someone's already pointed out that Em is the iii sub for CM7 so that Ebo can also definitely be seen as a passing chord between that sound and the Dm.

Interesting... Ebdim7 to my ear is really a suspension/approach chord to D7 of Dm7 in this context.

To me passing chord should be more or less in between without much more gravitation towards any - but especially to the following chord. Because music always goes forward in time and it adds gravitation for the next chord. Besides descending motion has more inert energy also.

Even if we play Em7 - Ebo.. at least to my ear. Movement in all voices is quite a jump here, it could be a passing still if the next chord were also at some distance but in combination with further ii chord where all the notes sit there already or resolve in half-step... It targets too much to ii.
If it were Ebm7b5 it would have been more balanced.

I see it more more as a passing chord when it goes other direction, as an ascending Dm7 - Ebo - Em11 for example

[djg]

However on the Eb diminished chord in "The Song is You" there is a B natural (and C) in the melody, which to my ear implies (if we want to get harmonically pedantic about it) using an Eb whole-half diminished scale.

yeah, but if we get *really* harmonically pedantic, the whole-half is basically a circus scale

[pamosmusic]

me too. B/C for Ebdim. i remember playing witchcraft (in G)with JvR many moons ago and he had this F# triad for the second chord Bbdim. it sounded fantastic. he still does it:

For some reason playing major triads with a b2 always works better for me than trying to actually play a diminished thing. I guess the fingerings are the same, but I just seem to come to them more intuitively when it's a modified major triad than when it's a diminished major 7 arpeggio.

[Christian Miller]

Oh no I’m going to have to post a video.

Sorry

How to REALLY play diminished chords

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