Cmaj7 to C#dim7th

[pamosmusic]

They would be 7b9 sounds, right?

And, for a whole bar of the dim chord, those four notes would just be repeated, presumably.

Definitely the A over the C#dim … the D triad over the Ebdim has a Dim(maj7) sound. That’s a great vibe for those non leading tone dominant chords. Also a very common sound in the orchestral arrangements of a lot of American songbook tunes. I remember we finally settled on that Bm E7 in Alone Together being a dim maj7 chord in the orchestral recording.

As for just the four notes?

Dunno. How often am I playing more than four notes in a measure? Half the time. How often are some of those notes actually more than for different pitches. Maybe half again. How often are the different pitches just leading tones or enclosures from chord stuff? A lot.

So it doesn’t really present much of a problem.

[ragman1]

Play it with a backing. I want to hear it.

How often am I playing more than four notes in a measure?

Don't be ridiculous.

[pamosmusic]

Play it with a backing. I want to hear it.

Not likely for a few days. We’re getting our floors refinished so I’m a nomad for a while.

You could give it a go.

Don't be ridiculous.

Didnt think I was.

I said about half the time. Seems probably right?

[Christian Miller]

Ah, I'm glad you brought up 'How Insensitive'. Absolutely.

I'm going to deliver a short lecture (!) because the muse is on me. If you already know it, sorry. Of course, others may read it who may not know it.

If we harmonise all the chords in all the scales (maj, nat m, harm m and mel m) the dim7 chord only appears once. Lots of dim triads but only one dim7. That's as the leading chord in harmonic minor, e.g. Bdim7 - Cm. So where that occurs the harmonic minor is a very good scale to use.

In Insensatez that happens twice, as we know, Dm - C#o and Cm - Bo. So, as you say, the harmonic minor sound is perfect for those two.

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The reason it's relevant here is because 'The Song Is You' has C#o - Dm. Voila, perfect for harm m.

BUT the other dim, the Ebo, doesn't come into that category. It's neither coming out of E minor nor going to it, it simply appears between CM7 and Dm. So in that case the diminished scale is best (and other ways of soloing over it).

And if you play with using the harm m over that sequence, CM7 - Ebo - Dm, you'll find the harm m doesn't sound quite right because there's no valid reason for it.

Hope that was concise

Could be a skills issue?


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[pamosmusic]

Could be a skills issue?


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How very dare you

[ragman1]

Could be a skills issue?

Could what be a skills issue? Playing harmonic minor over something not in harmonic minor? Oh, definitely

[Mick-7]

If we harmonize all the chords in all the scales (maj, nat m, harm m and mel m) the dim7 chord only appears once. Lots of dim triads but only one dim7. That's as the leading chord in harmonic minor, e.g. Bdim7 - Cm. So where that occurs the harmonic minor is a very good scale to use.

There is, formally, one dim.7 (the VII chord) in the Harmonic Major scale (major scale with b6). I say "formally" because you could cheat and play the II, IV, bVI chords as dim.7 chords (B-D-F-Ab). And of course the diminished scale has four dim.7 chords in it (same chord with four names).

BUT the other dim, the Ebo, doesn't come into that category. It's neither coming out of E minor nor going to it, it simply appears between CM7 and Dm. So in that case the diminished scale is best (and other ways of soloing over it). And if you play with using the harm m over that sequence, CM7 - Ebo - Dm, you'll find the harm m doesn't sound quite right because there's no valid reason for it.

E harmonic minor will work over CM7 & Ebo, just lower the 2nd (F#) when you get to Dm. E hm = C Lydian with raised 2nd (D#), or just add that note to the C Lydian scale as I suggested earlier. The E harmonic minor scale contains a rootless D7b9 chord (Eb-F#-A-C).

[rpjazzguitar]

Second chord on Wave, for the head, is, to my ear, well played as 6x567x. Bb G Db Gb. What to call it? I'll leave that to the theorists. I think of it as an A13b9, with the b9 in the bass.

If you play the first chord as x5767x, you can see (and hear) the voice leading.

If you think of the second chord as Bbdim7, the notes are Bb Db E G, which works fine, but I miss the Gb.

For solos, though, I may play, for the first chorus, Dmaj7, Eb9, Dsus9 (it's a C triad over a D bass note). The Eb9 can have an F in the soprano voice which is a bit of a stretch under the head, but usually works fine for the solos. Voice leading is very smooth. For subsequent choruses it depends on what others play.

For soloing, I sometimes just play blues, since the A section of Wave is a nice reharm of a 12 bar blues. Adjustments are necessary on some of the chords to avoid clashes. As far as what to play over the second chord, it seems to me it depends on what you play over the first chord. But, maybe that goes without saying.

[pamosmusic]

Second chord on Wave, for the head, is, to my ear, well played as 6x567x. Bb G Db Gb. What to call it? I'll leave that to the theorists. I think of it as an A13b9, with the b9 in the bass.

If you play the first chord as x5767x, you can see (and hear) the voice leading.

If you think of the second chord as Bbdim7, the notes are Bb Db E G, which works fine, but I miss the Gb.

For solos, though, I may play, for the first chorus, Dmaj7, Eb9, Dsus9 (it's a C triad over a D bass note). The Eb9 can have an F in the soprano voice which is a bit of a stretch under the head, but usually works fine for the solos. Voice leading is very smooth. For subsequent choruses it depends on what others play.

For soloing, I sometimes just play blues, since the A section of Wave is a nice reharm of a 12 bar blues. Adjustments are necessary on some of the chords to avoid clashes. As far as what to play over the second chord, it seems to me it depends on what you play over the first chord. But, maybe that goes without saying.

Jobim loves that chord … same as the second chord in Corcovado.

Were you the one who called that the Brazilian II?

[Mick-7]

Second chord on Wave, for the head, is, to my ear, well played as 6x567x. Bb G Db Gb. What to call it?

That chord is fairly common, Gdim#7 = G-Bb-Db-F#, comes from the G dim. scale (G-A-Bb-C-Db-Eb-E-F#).

[rpjazzguitar]

That chord is fairly common, Gdim#7 = G-Bb-Db-F#, comes from the G dim. scale (G-A-Bb-C-Db-Eb-E-F#).

The dimmaj7 chord shows up a lot in Brazilian music. But, in this case, what would you call it if you want a Bb in the bass? Maybe Gdim#7/Bb? Seems awkward.

[Christian Miller]

The dimmaj7 chord shows up a lot in Brazilian music. But, in this case, what would you call it if you want a Bb in the bass? Maybe Gdim#7/Bb? Seems awkward.

Yeah it’s a pain. Most charts just call it a dim 7 chord and ignore the note.

In most contexts the note comes from some type of diatonic passing tone against the bIIIIo7 which is extremely common in jazz standards. Tea for Two, Can’t Give You Anything But Love, Basin St Blues, All the Things You Are etc.

One of the nicest uses of the o7 with the added b6 is in Djangos Castle (Manoir de mes rêves) albeit in more of a V-I context where the chord 6 x 5 6 7 is normally written as a A13b9 in charts going to D6/9. In this case the melody goes F#-A so it’s no longer a passing tone. Although in this case the bass often plays the A.

I often think Django’s harmony and Bossa have a lot in common.

(I think of the Wave example as a bIIIo7 of the IV chord.)

Chord symbols are kind of a bit rubbish. Someone who is good at realising chord symbols has the ability to read between the lines and play what is required for the gig.

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[ragman1]

The melody over the second chord in Wave is a straight Bbo arpeggio: G Bb C# E G. Hence Bbo, I suppose. The F# comes from the dim scale. But you all know that.

Definitely not harmonic minor :-)

[Mick-7]

The dimmaj7 chord shows up a lot in Brazilian music. But, in this case, what would you call it if you want a Bb in the bass? Maybe Gdim#7/Bb? Seems awkward.

If you want that exact voicing, you'd have to do that, but as Christian said, they'll usually write the basic chord type they want, Gdim, Bbm, or whatever, and leave it up to the musician to choose the appropriate voicing.

[pamosmusic]

The melody over the second chord in Wave is a straight Bbo arpeggio: G Bb C# E G. Hence Bbo, I suppose. The F# comes from the dim scale. But you all know that.

Definitely not harmonic minor :-)

Not B harmonic minor?

Dont particularly care to slap a scale on it, but if you did I’m not sure why it couldn’t be harmonic minor.

[djg]

(I think of the Wave example as a bIIIo7 of the IV chord.)

to me it is some sort of parker blues. D A7 D7 D7 G Gm7 D B7 Em7 A7 Dm Dm

[ragman1]

Not B harmonic minor?

Dont particularly care to slap a scale on it, but if you did I’m not sure why it couldn’t be harmonic minor.

It's the same idea as the CM7 - Ebo - Dm7. Wave is DM7 - Bbo - Am7.

C#m - Dm7 is leading chord to tonic therefore in D harm.

Ebo - Dm7 is a passing chord. The harm scale doesn't really fit and is theoretically shaky. Same with Bbo - Am7.

Of course, someone somewhere is going to say they like using B harm (maybe you!) so what can you do?

[pamosmusic]

It's the same idea as the CM7 - Ebo - Dm7. Wave is DM7 - Bbo - Am7.

C#m - Dm7 is leading chord to tonic therefore in D harm.

Ebo - Dm7 is a passing chord. The harm scale doesn't really fit and is theoretically shaky. Same with Bbo - Am7.

Of course, someone somewhere is going to say they like using B harm (maybe you!) so what can you do?

I mean … who cares?

It “fits” … would I use it? No.

WH diminished also fits. Would I use it? No.

Just not sure why one is valid and the other isn’t.

[ragman1]

I mean … who cares?

Well, apparently you :-)

It “fits” … would I use it? No.

WH diminished also fits. Would I use it? No.

Ah, that's different, that's a personal choice.

Just not sure why one is valid and the other isn’t.

Probably because C#o - Dm7 all belongs to one key, D harm. Therefore the harm m sounds right. The other one, not really.

I played the other one to see. It's okay... but not quite. Certainly not as good as the dim scale. And whereas I would use the dim scale I'd more likely use a host of other stuff for variety's sake. Like the wholetone scale. Nice.

[ragman1]

Just not sure why one is valid and the other isn’t.

I've just thought of a good simile.

Take a non-diatonic M7 chord in a progression like

CM7 - EbM7 - Dm7/G7 - CM7

I'd say use the Bb scale to give it the Lydian treatment. Mainly because the one note difference (nat A, not Ab) keeps it in the C tonality. That's something you can really hear. Same thing applies to doms too, use Lyd Dom, not Mixo.

So in the same way, use harm m for stuff in the same key, otherwise don't.

[Christian Miller]

I mean saying a scale parents any chord in a functional context is usually kind of BS especially anything to do with the diminished scale which was always a special effect scale. We are talking about diminished chords in classic functional progressions so it’s an alteration of diatonic major/minor harmony. In this traditional general the passing tones in this situation simply come from the diatonic key or are just chromatic neighbours.

(The dim scale can be constructed as a lower neighbour tone pattern on the dim7 chord tones, but that’s a specific use case.)

In terms of the Wave chord it’s a major key with a flattened 6th degree which connects it to the Harmonic Major in modern jazz theory terms. But cats been flatting that note since the seventeenth century and the concept of the harmonic major didn’t exist back then.

Barry would say major sixth diminished scale

The notes Bb G C# F# also belongs to the B minor key if we respell the Bb as an A#.

If I’m soloing on it, I’ll be playing bebop stuff with a b9 on it and not stressing about the scale. Probably C7 going to the third of A7
and then into D7

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[rpjazzguitar]

(I think of the Wave example as a bIIIo7 of the IV chord.)

I never learned to think that way. Maybe I should have.

But, meanwhile, I think of that chord as an A13b9/Bb. Not exactly right because of the absence of a 9th. The B doesn't sound good to me in that chord. On guitar, I don't play the A. It's easy enough to add it at the top of the chord, but I don't think it sounds very good in the soprano position. And, I don't play the B, which is possible with some stretching.

OTOH, on piano, the chord sounds better to me with the A in the middle of the voicing than it does without the A. That would be Bb G A Db F#. So, to my ear, A13b9 (no 9) sounds fine and that's the way I plan to continue to think about it.

For soloing, that's 5 chord tones. And, the tonal center is still D or D-adjacent. The rest by ear.

[ragman1]

Of course it's all BS, Christian. We all know that, that's why these threads go on for ever and ever

[pamosmusic]

Probably because C#o - Dm7 all belongs to one key, D harm. Therefore the harm m sounds right. The other one, not really.

Do they?

It fits the C#o but not the Dm7, and even if it did, the E harmonic minor fits the Ebo7 and the Cmaj7 both, so …. ?

Anyway.

I like that D major with a b2 sound anyway. Christian’s B major with a #2 is nice too. I think just melodically I like major triads with a b2.

[pamosmusic]

Of course it's all BS, Christian. We all know that, that's why these threads go on for ever and ever

Through no fault of your own, no doubt