Melodic Minor Courses Online? or Favorite Book Must Have

[GuyBoden]

Yes, I never play a wrong note... but occasionally my timing is off.

Mark E Smith Quote:

[pamosmusic]

I never see anyone include the major scale in a list of altered scales - e.g., Gb major (Db mixolydian) played over G7.

Do you ever use the term "altered scale"? If so, do you think of it as a vague term with no precise definition?

It’s a pretty common approximate synonym for the altered scale.

Its the tritone substitution and the altered scale is the related minor of the tritone substitution.

They have the same extensions except that the altered has the root and the dominant off the tritone has the major 7.

[Christian Miller]

I never see anyone include the major scale in a list of altered scales - e.g., Gb major (Db mixolydian) played over G7.

Do you ever use the term "altered scale"? If so, do you think of it as a vague term with no precise definition?

I know what an altered scale is. It’s like the tritone dominant scale with my favourite note taken out lol.

An altered tone means a note that isn’t in the diatonic harmony.

An altered scale tone means a note that is in the altered scale.

Obviously F# belongs to the former category but not the latter.

Otoh an altered dominant is a dominant chord that contains one or more altered or non diatonic tones. I think most would say that a G7b9 scale in C major is an altered dominant but it contains (at least in theory) a D, which the altered scale doesn’t have.

In jazz any dominant can be swapped out for something fun unless you have a muppet comping for you.

The logic of the altered dominant is mostly enhanced semitonal cadential voice leading into a target chord (there’s some wild examples in Bach) - and this is how it generally functions in bop - but it has become more common over the years to make the altered and dominant-diminished scales in particular a thing in themselves.

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[pamosmusic]

In jazz any dominant can be swapped out for something fun unless you have a muppet comping for you.

I don’t know why you think Animal and crew wouldn’t come with you on the super out sh**

[Mick-7]

It’s a pretty common approximate synonym for the altered scale. Its the tritone substitution and the altered scale is the related minor of the tritone substitution. They have the same extensions except that the altered has the root and the dominant off the tritone has the major 7.

Hmm, I just realized that if you lower the leading tone of the altered dominant scale it becomes a major scale, for example, lowering the 7th of the Ab melodic minor scale gives you the Gb major scale: Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-F-(Gb<G).

[pamosmusic]

Hmm, I just realized that if you lower the leading tone of the altered dominant scale it becomes a major scale, for example, lowering the 7th of the Ab melodic minor scale gives you the Gb major scale: Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-F-(Gb<G).

Right that’s what I said?

And leading tone is the note a half step below the root, so it would be leading tone of the melodic minor scale, I suppose.

[GuyBoden]

During lessons, I spent many, many, years learning all the melodic minor modes in each key. An arduous task. Thankfully, never to be repeated.

I found that the Melodic minor mode names are difficult to remember and each mode name is not totally agreed upon.

But, if you already know the Major scale mode names, I came to this solution:

Melodic minor mode1: C D Eb F G A B is Ionian b3
Melodic minor mode2: D Eb F G A B C is Dorian b2
Melodic minor mode3: Eb F G A B C D is Phrygian b1
Melodic minor mode4: F G A B C D Eb is Lydian b7
Melodic minor mode5: G A B C D Eb F is Mixolydian b6
Melodic minor mode6: A B C D Eb F G is Aeolian b5
Melodic minor mode7: B C D Eb F G A is Locrian b4
(Warning: The above Melodic minor mode system is good, if you already know each Major scale mode inside out.)

Edit: Below: If you order the Melodic minor modes in the following way, you can see the pattern.
Melodic minor mode3: Eb F G A B C D is Phrygian b1
Melodic minor mode2: D Eb F G A B C is Dorian b2
Melodic minor mode1: C D Eb F G A B is Ionian b3
Melodic minor mode7: B C D Eb F G A is Locrian b4
Melodic minor mode6: A B C D Eb F G is Aeolian b5
Melodic minor mode5: G A B C D Eb F is Mixolydian b6
Melodic minor mode4: F G A B C D Eb is Lydian b7

[princeplanet]

I've probably mentioned this a few times, but as a scale, I decided a while back that I just don't care for MM. I don't like it against minor tonic, and I have other things I prefer against the different kinds of Dom subs it gets used for.

Like (over C7):

(non standard) Pentatonic options

Bb Db E Gb Ab

b7 b9 3 b5 b13

Or swap the b5 for a #9

Bb Db Eb E Ab

b7 b9 #9 3 b13

If I want more notes (and i usually do) I'll add chromatic passing notes. I know it ends up being similar to the pool of notes often referred to as the Altered scale, but conceiving it differently (approaching and/or encircling the 5 pent notes) gets me the sound i like to hear when I actually "improvise" over these chords. Prior to this personal realisation I was using the usual scale patterns/sequences or just pre fab "lines" - in other words I was not really improvising...

[GuyBoden]

I've probably mentioned this a few times, but as a scale, I decided a while back that I just don't care for MM. I don't like it against minor tonic, and I have other things I prefer against the different kinds of Dom subs it gets used for.

Like (over C7):

(non standard) Pentatonic options

Bb Db E Gb Ab

b7 b9 3 b5 b13

Or swap the b5 for a #9

Bb Db Eb E Ab

b7 b9 #9 3 b13

If I want more notes (and i usually do) I'll add chromatic passing notes. I know it ends up being similar to the pool of notes often referred to as the Altered scale, but conceiving it differently (approaching and/or encircling the 5 pent notes) gets me the sound i like to hear when I actually "improvise" over these chords. Prior to this personal realisation I was using the usual scale patterns/sequences or just pre fab "lines" - in other words I was not really improvising...

Yes, it's just flattening or sharpening notes, using stuff you already know.

To my ears, "Chromatics are King",

.....and Chromatics is where the "Chord Scale Theory" fails miserably.

[princeplanet]

Yes, it's just flattening or sharpening notes, using stuff you already know.

To my ears, "Chromatics are King",

.....and Chromatics is where the "Chord Scale Approach" fails miserably.

I'm not able to think of raising or lowering notes from other known scales or arps on the fly, and I seriously doubt many people do this when playing at brisk tempi. I could be wrong, and if I am, then I'm even more stupid than I thought . Instead I do what I think most of us do, learn the various shapes over the neck that cover these notes, for example, I tend to think of a pentatonic based on the m7b5 a whole tone down from the root of the Dom chord I'm subbing for, and all the associated stuff that goes with that.

And yeah, I totally agree that CST teaches you nothing about Bop playing, or at least seems to be the wrong (and long) way to go about it. I like Jazz that has lots of chromatic embellishment, so I wasted too much time on the CST thing. Also, to echo some of the earlier responses, its good to work on one "outside" note at a time, really get to know their sounds and be able to pre hear them so you can target them meaningfully. I think it took me a while before I could sing lines using altered notes, which is when you know that you're truly "hearing" it.

[Mick-7]

Hmm, I just realized that if you lower the leading tone of the altered dominant scale it becomes a major scale, for example, lowering the 7th of the Ab melodic minor scale gives you the Gb major scale: Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-F-(Gb<G).

Right that’s what I said?

I would not have inferred that from your statement: "They have the same extensions except that the altered has the root and the dominant off the tritone has the major 7."

.....and Chromatics is where the "Chord Scale Approach" fails miserably.

I wouldn't say that, chord scales are a tool for developing chord patterns, you have to combine them to make music.

[Mick-7]

I've probably mentioned this a few times, but as a scale, I decided a while back that I just don't care for MM. I don't like it against minor tonic, and I have other things I prefer against the different kinds of Dom subs it gets used for.

Like (over C7):
(non standard) Pentatonic options:
Bb Db E Gb Ab
b7 b9 3 b5 b13

Or swap the b5 for a #9:
Bb Db Eb E Ab
b7 b9 #9 3 b13

You could think of melodic minor as a combination of the diminished and whole tone scales:

Bb melodic minor scale: A-Bb-C-Db-Eb (Dim)| Db-Eb-F-G-A (WT)

In fact your pentatonic phrases can be derived from the diminished scale:

With notes in parentheses added = Dim. scale: Bb-(C)-Db-(Eb)-E-Gb -Ab
Or Whole Tone: E-Gb-Ab-Bb-(C)

Dim again: Bb-(C)-Db-Eb-E-(Gb-G) -Ab.

[princeplanet]

You could think of melodic minor as a combination of the diminished and whole tone scales:

Bb melodic minor scale: A-Bb-C-Db-Eb (Dim)| Db-Eb-F-G-A (WT)

In fact your pentatonic phrases can be derived from the diminished scale:

With notes in parentheses added = Dim. scale: Bb-(C)-Db-(Eb)-E-Gb -Ab
Or Whole Tone: E-Gb-Ab-Bb-(C)
Dim. again: Bb-(C)-Db-Eb-E-(F-G) -Ab.

Yep, they're both scales I prefer to MM derivatives, but I find myself wanting to limit their usage - they come out sounding too rigid or something. Besides, the notes you leave out creates the sound you're going for, every bit as much as the notes you leave in - like in my 2 pent examples, just one different note, but entirely different flavour.

[GuyBoden]

I'm not able to think of raising or lowering notes from other known scales or arps on the fly, and I seriously doubt many people do this when playing at brisk tempi.

Edit: Below: If you order the Melodic minor modes in the following way, you can see the pattern.
Melodic minor mode3: Eb F G A B C D is Phrygian b1
Melodic minor mode2: D Eb F G A B C is Dorian b2
Melodic minor mode1: C D Eb F G A B is Ionian b3
Melodic minor mode7: B C D Eb F G A is Locrian b4
Melodic minor mode6: A B C D Eb F G is Aeolian b5
Melodic minor mode5: G A B C D Eb F is Mixolydian b6
Melodic minor mode4: F G A B C D Eb is Lydian b7

Yes, sometimes, if we're not careful, music can become a theoretical exercise, not really music at all, more like the BEng Maths lectures at Uni. (An example is my Melodic minor mode patterns, in the above quote.)

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm still focused on how to organize this stuff mentally.

People have proposed a number of approaches, each of which works for some people, presumably.

But, the combinatorics quickly become overwhelming, at least for me.

What I find doable, not necessarily optimal, is thinking about chord. So ...

1. If the chord is Cm6 or Cminmaj7, that's Cmelmin. I know two patterns, but I don't need them. It's white keys but flat the third.

2. The next chord in the melmin scale, per Mark Levine, is Dsusb9. This fudges the theory a little. I end up thinking, melmin a step lower. Or, I think about a chord shape. (I don't have a uniform system). Or, forget about melmin and play D phrygian (Bb major).

3. Then it's Ebmaj7#5. I might think Ebmaj and I sharp the 5. There's a glitch in there about the A vs Ab, but I never think about that. Or, I might think G/Eb and use my ear.

4. F7#11. Think of it as a V7 and find its iim. The iim V7 relationship is good to know in every key. Or just play your usual stuff on F7 and remember to include the B. Technically, there's also a C in the chord, but I don't comp it that way and I never think about it when soloing.

5. G7b13. I don't think melmin or harmonic minor . I think about the chord tones and other white keys. Or you could say, mixolydian and flat the E, which, of course, results in the same notes as Cmelmin.

6. Am7b5. Easy enough, think Am7 (all white keys) and flat the E. Or think melmin a minor third up. Faster (for me anyway) to think about the chord name.

7. Balt. I often make this into a B7#9b13. That gives you quite a few notes. B D# G A D and the b9 usually goes with the #9, so you can add C. Reordered: C D Eb G A B. The chord name implies an F, which completes the alt scale.

Or it's easy to think m(add9) a half step up. Or melmin a half step up.

To make this work in 12 keys, you need to know major and relative minor scales. You need to know chord tones and the intervals (or note names in 12 keys) required for extensions and tensions.

It's some work to get b3 3 b5 #5 b7 7 b9 #9 automatic in all keys (12 keys plus some enharmonic equivalents, since you don't need an extra step in your thinking on the fly). But, these chords are all about variations in 3s 5s 7s and 9s.

[Mick-7]

I'm still focused on how to organize this stuff mentally. People have proposed a number of approaches, each of which works for some people, presumably. But, the combinatorics quickly become overwhelming, at least for me.

Generally guitarists come up with a set of chord forms and patterns they like and repeat them. If you know the essential chord tones you can simply add extensions or alterations to them. Joe Pass, for example, had a fairly small set of chord forms that he would ornament.

[Christian Miller]

I'm still focused on how to organize this stuff mentally.

People have proposed a number of approaches, each of which works for some people, presumably.

But, the combinatorics quickly become overwhelming, at least for me.

What I find doable, not necessarily optimal, is thinking about chord. So ...

1. If the chord is Cm6 or Cminmaj7, that's Cmelmin. I know two patterns, but I don't need them. It's white keys but flat the third.

2. The next chord in the melmin scale, per Mark Levine, is Dsusb9. This fudges the theory a little. I end up thinking, melmin a step lower. Or, I think about a chord shape. (I don't have a uniform system). Or, forget about melmin and play D phrygian (Bb major).

3. Then it's Ebmaj7#5. I might think Ebmaj and I sharp the 5. There's a glitch in there about the A vs Ab, but I never think about that. Or, I might think G/Eb and use my ear.

4. F7#11. Think of it as a V7 and find its iim. The iim V7 relationship is good to know in every key. Or just play your usual stuff on F7 and remember to include the B. Technically, there's also a C in the chord, but I don't comp it that way and I never think about it when soloing.

5. G7b13. I don't think melmin or harmonic minor . I think about the chord tones and other white keys. Or you could say, mixolydian and flat the E, which, of course, results in the same notes as Cmelmin.

6. Am7b5. Easy enough, think Am7 (all white keys) and flat the E. Or think melmin a minor third up. Faster (for me anyway) to think about the chord name.

7. Balt. I often make this into a B7#9b13. That gives you quite a few notes. B D# G A D and the b9 usually goes with the #9, so you can add C. Reordered: C D Eb G A B. The chord name implies an F, which completes the alt scale.

Or it's easy to think m(add9) a half step up. Or melmin a half step up.

I heer you on combinatorics. People spam great long lists and I wonder how many of them they can actually use in the moment.

All of those options have to become so internalised that you no longer need to give them a moment's thought. So you can spend a good few months just ingraining one of these things on every tune you can think of. You know, take number 2 and just apply to every dominant chord you see in a tune. Rinse and repeat every day for several months until you know longer have to do the mental conversion, and so on.

The more you do it I think the better you get at making these conversions, but certainly for someone starting off with this stuff one

In stupid guitar land, it is helpful that a lot of our standard grips contain a minor triad:
x 6 7 6 7 x
5 x 5 3 3 x
x 5 4 5 5 5

So we can just take that and turn into a minor major 7 or a full melodic minor scale off the triad.

x 6 7 6 6 x
5 x 5 3 3 4
x 5 4 5 5 4

That's quite a fun beginner way to do it.

To make this work in 12 keys, you need to know major and relative minor scales. You need to know chord tones and the intervals (or note names in 12 keys) required for extensions and tensions.

Absolutely disagree that this is necessary to improvise with this stuff. You need to know that stuff to read them on a chart - which is useful, and I'm not saying this information has no value. While I can name every note I play, it's not where my head is at when I'm improvising. I think and hear purely in terms of intervals most of the time.

You may say, who cares - fair enough - there are players who play all of this stuff and can't read a note, or poorly at best. Allan Holdworth would be a great example. OTOH I play quite a few big bands with players who read circles around me (though I'm improving), and yet I seem to end up getting solos because they aren't confident improvisers.

It's some work to get b3 3 b5 #5 b7 7 b9 #9 automatic in all keys (12 keys plus some enharmonic equivalents, since you don't need an extra step in your thinking on the fly). But, these chords are all about variations in 3s 5s 7s and 9s.

If you are a beast reader from an early age like most pianists etc, the mapping between the guitar fretboard and note names may be super tight, especially if you have perfect pitch, but I would say that that's not where my head is at, and I would be very surprised if I was alone in that.

[Christian Miller]

I'm not able to think of raising or lowering notes from other known scales or arps on the fly, and I seriously doubt many people do this when playing at brisk tempi. I could be wrong, and if I am, then I'm even more stupid than I thought . Instead I do what I think most of us do, learn the various shapes over the neck that cover these notes, for example, I tend to think of a pentatonic based on the m7b5 a whole tone down from the root of the Dom chord I'm subbing for, and all the associated stuff that goes with that.

What I would say is that if I do any of that type of STEM brain thinking for want of a better term, my time goes out the window.

But yes by and large I think you have to respect the importance of muscle memory.

And yeah, I totally agree that CST teaches you nothing about Bop playing, or at least seems to be the wrong (and long) way to go about it. I like Jazz that has lots of chromatic embellishment, so I wasted too much time on the CST thing. Also, to echo some of the earlier responses, its good to work on one "outside" note at a time, really get to know their sounds and be able to pre hear them so you can target them meaningfully. I think it took me a while before I could sing lines using altered notes, which is when you know that you're truly "hearing" it.

That's because Bop is about melody, quiet as it's kept. Chord Scale derived playing often sounds static to my ear, Bop moves forward to resolution points. It makes sense CST is about avoiding dissonance and finding the 'cool notes' over chords, while Bop embraces dissonance as part of thing that in combination with rhythm makes lines move into resolutions. The first is static, like a picture, and the second is temporal, like a story.

(And yes, Bop can be used with CST, they aren't opposites.)

You do get examples of MM stuff in bop. I'm not sure how they were thinking of it back then. Billy Strayhorn had introduced the 7#11 and 7susb9 sounds in the 40s, although I'm not sure if he was thinking in terms of deriving them from scales. George Shearing uses an altered scale in Conception, as well as a Amaj7#5 sound on Ebm7b5 (E locrian #2 in modern terms).

[princeplanet]

...
You do get examples of MM stuff in bop. I'm not sure how they were thinking of it back then. Billy Strayhorn had introduced the 7#11 and 7susb9 sounds in the 40s, although I'm not sure if he was thinking in terms of deriving them from scales. George Shearing uses an altered scale in Conception, as well as a Amaj7#5 sound on Ebm7b5 (E locrian #2 in modern terms).

Sure, but if you take away any (coincidental?) resemblances to MM usage in the wider Bop canon, it doesn't change much, Parker still sounds like Parker, Bud Powell still sounds like Bud Powell...

On another note, I just wanted to air another rumination re the Alt scale, or it's derivation. I think we know of the French, Italian and German 6th iterations that gave chromatic spice to Dominants, and the common Jazz usage of Tritone swaps, so, how did the Alt scale come to be? My guess (and I really should know this) is that peeps decided that if Gb7 works agains C7, then maybe Gb mixolydian should also work, until they discovered that the Cb note crashed the party, so they just raised it. If that's the case, then surely it's easier to just think of the C altered scale as the Gb mixo but with a raised "c" - Lydian Dominant. I don't understand the need to see it as Super Locrian of Db MM, seems to over complicate it It's just bII7 - I ... for FFS...

Anyway, surely when they raised the 4th degree in a mixo scale they weren't thinking of modes of MM, I'm thinking that was purely coincidental, right? The whole idea to explore modes of MM strikes me as an intellectual abstraction, like much of advanced CST. Cool to explore, (hey I studied serial composition at Uni for years), but unless you really love those sounds, it's just not as rudimentary as all the post 70's collegiate types have led us to believe it is. (strokes chin...)

[rpjazzguitar]

I heer you on

Absolutely disagree that this is necessary to improvise with this stuff. You need to know that stuff to read them on a chart - which is useful, and I'm not saying this information has no value. While I can name every note I play, it's not where my head is at when I'm improvising. I think and hear purely in terms of intervals most of the time.

.

Necessary, no. I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was necessary.

But, it is part of the the approach I was trying to present.

If you choose to approach it from the point of view of chords in this way, it's very helpful (to me, anyway) to know the notes that change to make a particular chord. 3 or b3. 7 or b7. Which fifth(s). Which ninth(s). 6th or not.

So, you're going along and you see a chord and instantly know the chord tones, the consonant extensions and the various tensions you can apply. And, since you know the fingerboard, you can find these notes.

I don't think that most players do it this way. But it works, albeit with some disadvantages. One major disadvantage is that it doesn't include specific lines that you practice and then can play really fast. You have to work that stuff out on top of the system. If it can be ennobled by calling it a system.

As I mentioned before, I'm not an avid consumer of combinatorics or dots on grids. At some point, I realized I already knew all this stuff in the key of C (and a few nearby keys) and I decided to learn it in 12 keys. Back when I thought 12 was enough. It's imperfect. I still have to drill.

[Mick-7]

Well, how many voices can you hear at the same time? Only one, or two or three? You can learn to hear and thus improvise two or three moving lines at once, that's one of the goals of the Van Eps and Jimmy Wyble books.

[wolflen]

Anyway, surely when they raised the 4th degree in a mixo scale they weren't thinking of modes of MM, I'm thinking that was purely coincidental, right? The whole idea to explore modes of MM strikes me as an intellectual abstraction, like much of advanced CST. Cool to explore, (hey I studied serial composition at Uni for years), but unless you really love those sounds, it's just not as rudimentary as all the post 70's collegiate types have led us to believe it is. (strokes chin...)

My approach to the MM is similar to Levins "all the chords are the same" well close to that. I use triad pairs.

Keeping it as basic as possible so as to be able to navigate within and without the MM.

Using C MM as the template I convert the chords to finger friendly names:

Cmimaj7..well I see a G aug form so that has a G triad in its parent scale (G aug scale)

Dmi7 ..there is a F triad (this reminds me of Wheel of Fortune)

EbMA7#5 lets make this easier to digest..G/Eb..yes G triad with Eb in bass

F7..F triad

G7 G Triad

Ami7b5-convert name to F9-F triad

Bmi7b5-convert name to G9-G triad

now there are many ways to alter each triad to weave in and out to the MM scale to make it the "ALT" scale and resolve to ? some
form of E MA/ Emi

Experiment with this kind of thinking . I find The i-IV-V triad names of the MM much easier to manage than
esoteric chord names

any comments

[Mick-7]

My approach to the MM is similar to Levins "all the chords are the same" well close to that. I use triad pairs.

I agree, as I said one can remember and perhaps even hear ( ) 2-3 note chords but beyond that it's Hic sunt dracones ("Beyond this point there be dragons").

[Christian Miller]

Sure, but if you take away any (coincidental?) resemblances to MM usage in the wider Bop canon, it doesn't change much, Parker still sounds like Parker, Bud Powell still sounds like Bud Powell...

I mean, George Shearing has in the second bar of the bridge of conception the notes D C B A G F Eb D C. The chord of the moment is B7.

It seems perverse to not call that the C melodic minor scale, and therefore by extension the altered scale in this application (I'd probably say tritone's minor).

Stephan Grapelli played this also. I don't know what you'd call it, I expect Shearing knew what a melodic minor scale is, after all they've been in existence for centuries at this point (and the ascending form was used for descending runs too - the Solfeggietto has it.) In any case it's a neat way of handling the IV7 chord and the VII7 is tritone sub for that?

On another note, I just wanted to air another rumination re the Alt scale, or its derivation. I think we know of the French, Italian and German 6th iterations that gave chromatic spice to Dominants, and the common Jazz usage of Tritone swaps, so, how did the Alt scale come to be?

Now your talking my language haha,

So the Augmented 6th chords are predominant chords in classical era music. They set up the V or the I6/4. In the Romantic era they seem to be used more freely. Beethoven uses this type of chord to set up a I chord in his 9th Symphony and Brahms in his 4th Symphony.

As to what scales go on these - Mozart and his era of composers what we might call today a sort a minor scale with the raised 4th and spicy leap from b3-#4, which is actually a pretty nice sound even in jazz.

It's probably much more sensible just to view this as diatonic minor key passing tones in between the chord tones of the chord, one of which is chromatically raised by a half step (F to F#).

This makes sense if one understands that the Augmented sixth is a chromatic enhancement of IV7b V in minor, the so-called Phrygian cadence (e.g. Fm/Ab G or Fm6/Ab G in the key of Cm) where we raise the F up a half step to add a leading tone into the chord.

I would say by the early jazz era that chord - and this chord is EVERYWHERE in the pre war era - gets associated with a sort of lydian dominant or whole tone tonality. I'll Never Be the Same uses a whole tone tetrachord 1-2-3-#4 on the chord that belongs to both the whole tone and lydian dominant scales. The intro seems to reference the whole tone, not that unusual in pre war jazz. On the solos the line is always 1-2-3-#4... so attributing a scale quality to this becomes a matter of metaphysics lol.

OTOH Out of Nowhere has 3-#4-5. So that is interesting.

The other thing is we can respell that #4 to a b5 - and - BLUES. So instead of #4-5 we now have b5-4 leading from bVI7 V7 directly, straight bussin' no cap (although Richard Wagner also uses this descending voice leading of this chord in his prelude to Tristan which is cool).

As to the tritone sub, Django is using it very explicitly as a triadic sub in this solo.

I very much doubt this had a scalic implication to him. What I would relate it to is to the Neapolitan chord, played here in root position, that you find everywhere in Django's music. I see this as layering effect of improvisation - while in classical music the Neapolitan chord usually precedes the dominant (as with the Aug6) in improvisation it can end up be superimposed on it - kind of like how you might superimpose a II-7 V7 on a V7 when soloing. And of course Django also liked Aug6th. So that's my guess as to the origin.

Then you see it in the Night in Tunisia melody, for instance, written on the dominant.

If you listen to Monk though, the preferred 'weird dominant' sound is usually the whole tone scale again. That's what he has going along with the 7b5. Bud too liked this sound.

That said, IIRC I caught Al Casey using the 'minor up a half step' thing on a 40s Fats recording. But this is present in the harmonic minor scale, if you misspell the bVIm(maj7) chord (eg Ab B Eb G in C minor)

As to how that tritone sub turns into scales... well that's not something I think I can comment on yet.

My guess (and I really should know this) is that peeps decided that if Gb7 works agains C7, then maybe Gb mixolydian should also work, until they discovered that the Cb note crashed the party, so they just raised it. If that's the case, then surely it's easier to just think of the C altered scale as the Gb mixo but with a raised "c" - Mixolydian Dominant. I don't understand the need to see it as Super Locrian of Db MM, seems to over complicate it It's just bII7 - I ... for FFS...

Well if you have nice things to play in minor, you can play them on dominant chords. I would suggest learning some nice things to play on minor chords, and then as a cheeky bonus you get lots of other chords thrown in.

Anyway, surely when they raised the 4th degree in a mixo scale they weren't thinking of modes of MM, I'm thinking that was purely coincidental, right? The whole idea to explore modes of MM strikes me as an intellectual abstraction, like much of advanced CST. Cool to explore, (hey I studied serial composition at Uni for years), but unless you really love those sounds, it's just not as rudimentary as all the post 70's collegiate types have led us to believe it is. (strokes chin...)

The fixation on the MM to the exclusion of all else is unhelpful for bop IMO - the other minor scales can be incorporated into this sort of application and if you listen to real music, that's often what they were doing. So I like 'important minor' and 'tritone's minor' as terms because they seem to suggest more freedom and an invitation to introduce more chromaticism if desired. HOWEVER - there are definitely examples.

I think you can do something like 80-90% of bebop without using what I prefer to call 'applied minor.' But in some cases it seems a bit silly to avoid using the concept completely.

[Bach5G]

Fundamental Changes put out a couple of pretty basic books