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Im not sure if this is the correct Forum for the question listed.
I have seen a few video type courses offered on Instagram.
Im mainly a blues, funk player,
However, I like the harmony that I hear when players go to the IV chord and going back to the I
Im looking to get more harmony out of the MM and apply it to tunes that I play to throw a little Spice in the mix.
I really dig Robben Ford, (I know he uses Dim a lot,, that will be next)
Looking to break down The harmony of it and everything that goes with it. Then apply on solos
There are books out there,,,( if there is a book that is a must have, Im open to that as well) but I prefer something with video.
Thank you for any info.
CorbinLast edited by corbeano; 03-10-2025 at 09:52 AM.
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03-10-2025 09:02 AM
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Are you looking more for how it’s used in jazz? Application stuff?
Originally Posted by corbeano
If that: Randy Vincent’s Line Games is pretty good and I think frames the melodic minor thing in a really useful way. There isn’t chapter after chapter on it, but it’s a pretty comprehensive book and it’s nice to see something like this in context for how musicians conceptualize it and how often it’s used (often, but by no means all the time). Not to mention he’s good at that kind on book and you’ll go back to it for other stuff.
Or more literally like … how do you get the scale under your fingers?
How comfortable are you with the major scale? Like … if that’s under your fingers, what does that look like to you?
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No idea where you are at as a player, but I like to take little bits and just give it a go. I did all the scale patterns and finger dexterity with the major scale across the neck, so for other scales I just learn it in one position and go for a ride.
Learn the scale and play with it over Autumn Leaves (If you're playing from the RB solo with E melodic minor) and Caravan (If your first chord is a C7 use F melodic minor). Remember to have fun, it's music not surgery.
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I should have let everyone know what Im looking for and I will edit. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Im mainly a blues, funk player,
However, I like the harmony that I hear when players go to the IV chord and going back to the I
Im looking to get more harmony out of the MM and apply it to tunes that I play to throw a little Spice in the mix.
I really dig Robben Ford, (I know he uses Dim a lot,, that will be next)
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Yeah this is sort of what I was alluding to, asking about the major scale. I think if the goal is having it "under your fingers" then whatever makes you feel like had the major scale under your fingers is a great place to start. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
For that stuff ... I'm obsessed with this book: Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display
I've had that since I was sixteen. It's awesome but it's A LOT. All the diatonic examples are in major, but I use them for whatever I'm getting into.
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Ah cool. Yeah check out line games: Originally Posted by corbeano
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display
It's a great book. Everything he introduces, he illustrates with a legit line from a great solo (a lot of Joe Pass in this one).
The downside: there is no "melodic minor" section, but it's scattered throughout based on how it's being used. The spot you'd find most useful is in the "hexatonics" section probably.
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If you haven't already, use a system like Peter linked to get the major scale under your fingers, all across the neck, in all 12 keys. Sounds overwhelming and sometimes it'll feel that way, but with 10-15 minutes a day, it'll come together quick.
I'm not trying to be a smartass posting this link, a lot of people forget this is the forum side of an educational website.
You searched for melodic minor | Jazz Guitar Online | Free Jazz Guitar Lessons, Licks, Tips & Tricks.
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Don Mock wrote a nice comprehensive book about Melodic Minor. Still available, e.g. Amazon etc.
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Not at all,,, I feel like I have the Major Scale down pretty dang good in 12 keys. ( all the intervals that go with it,, well,,,,,lol work in progress) Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Thank you for your help.
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My advice with so called melodic minor harmony is - start with useful colourful triads rather than the whole scale. These are triads that have the cool notes. This tends to sound better, at least at first. There's a lot of notes in a seven note scale and playing all of them can get a bit much. Originally Posted by corbeano
Not at all,,, I feel like I have the Major Scale down pretty dang good in 12 keys. ( all the intervals that go with it,, well,,,,,lol work in progress)
Thank you for your help.
So, for instance, an F# triad (b9, b5, b7) on the C7 chord for the altered sound, an E triad (9, 13, #11) on the D7 for lydian dominant - this kind of thing.
Another thing you should pick up is that often the melodic minor option is one note different from the standard diatonic option.
For example, on a D7 chord it's the G# (#4/#11) that marks out the lydian dominant from the regular mixolydian. Get used to singing that note over the given chord, and when you play on that chord really go for that note. It will get the sound in your head.
Be patient. It takes a while to internalise. Be on the look out for these things in solos.
I'm sure someone can recommend a course, I'm not really a course or book guy TBH. I just get an idea and then work with it in my own way. I have books on my shelf, but I've never been able to work through one in a structured way.... It's all out there in the music, honestly, if I know what an idea is and I hear one of my favourite players using it, that makes more impact to me.
There's also the triad pair concept - when you alternate two triads to get (most) of a given scale. Robben Ford definitely used triad pair stuff when he was with Miles (probably after too, but I've only transcribed Robben with Miles).Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-10-2025 at 05:14 PM. Reason: mistake
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As a prezzie, here are some early Robben Ford-isms I did for a lesson years ago. Some of these licks are hard and all of them are hip af.
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Only one note is different from the major scale, so you can just modify the fingerings you know, e.g., raise the 7th of the Dorian minor (Dm7) scale [D-E-F-G-A-B-C#], which is also the Mixolydian scale (G7) with b5th (#4th), and altered scale for it's b5 substitute (Db7). Originally Posted by corbeano
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F# over G7 for altered? Is that correct?
I've always thought Abm(add9) for the altered sound. b9 3 b13 #9. And, then you can add the #11.
My thought is that the trick to melodic minor harmony is that it creates a lot of different sounds and it's too much to expect to learn them all at once.
So, for example, the first one is tonic minor. m6 or minmaj7. You play the melmin scale from the root to get the sound.
Another common usage is lydian dominant, like G7#11. That one takes Dmelmin. And you learn the sound.
If you don't know where the right notes are on the fretboard, there are different approaches to that. In thinking about what to say in this post, I realized that I don't know what to recommend for that.
If, for example, you consider two sounds, tonic minor and lydian dominant, do you memorize separate patterns for Dm6 and G7#11? Or do you just think, Dmelmin? I think the best choice may depend on how the player learns most efficiently.
Whichever way you do it, the goal is to be able to hear the sounds and have your fingers find the notes without much thought.
I think that it may work best to just try to master one sound at a time. So, tonic minor, 7#11 and alt might be the first three to work on.
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No, a half step up, not a half step down, i.e., Ab melodic minor over G7 - and your IIm scale of bV7, i.e., Abmm over Db7. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That is the scale I mentioned, i.e., the D dorian minor scale with #7th, you could think of it as the relative IIm of the V7#11. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Right. Originally Posted by Mick-7
I'm actually not sure how I think about it. Maybe "G7#11 scale".
If I want the sound of G7#11, I'm not going to play the D even if it's technically in the chord-scale. To my ear, it makes the sound I want become more ambiguous.
D E F G A B C#. That's D mel min. It's what I think of as a G7#11 scale, among other things. But since I don't want the D, I'm left with 6 notes.
I often think hexatonics make more sense than 7 note scales, but I never think about that while I'm playing. Only when I'm trying to relate to theory.
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Typo - I meant F# on C7 Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yeah that's a classic too. The add9 is really nice - I likes a minor add 9, I does.I've always thought Abm(add9) for the altered sound. b9 3 b13 #9. And, then you can add the #11.
My thought is that the trick to melodic minor harmony is that it creates a lot of different sounds and it's too much to expect to learn them all at once.
However the tritone triad is a really common sub as well - it's all over bop. Django plays it all the time, for that matter. It sounds to me a little more angular than the minor up a half step. You can use a dominant seventh chord as well, but the triad is really common.
(It could also be considered a diminished scale thing. I don't think it matters.)
personally I play, for example, all of my D minor stuff on G7 (or Db7, or Bm7b5 for that matter), like Mick 7 said. So I teach that way unsurpringly. (That said, I do have other approaches too.)So, for example, the first one is tonic minor. m6 or minmaj7. You play the melmin scale from the root to get the sound.
Another common usage is lydian dominant, like G7#11. That one takes Dmelmin. And you learn the sound.
If you don't know where the right notes are on the fretboard, there are different approaches to that. In thinking about what to say in this post, I realized that I don't know what to recommend for that.
If, for example, you consider two sounds, tonic minor and lydian dominant, do you memorize separate patterns for Dm6 and G7#11? Or do you just think, Dmelmin? I think the best choice may depend on how the player learns most efficiently.
Which requires conversion in your head which takes, in my experience, a lot of time to master for just one sub formula - "what minor on what chord? Errr.. give me a minute". As it's the way both Barry Harris and Allan Holdsworth did it, it's not stye dependent exactly, but I don't think it's how they usually teach it today (Berklee approach)?
As for memorising patterns - well - you have to play everything in all keys of course. I know we think it's easy on the guitar to transpose, but there's physical adjustments just for where you play things on the neck and you need to get everything in different string groups, positions and so on. For people used to working with TAB I think that can be a bit of a shock.
So just getting them to do stuff like transposing one five - seven note lick or scale or pattern, preferably something they've chosen from a player they like (by ear if poss). We can do a different one every week, but they need to learn it. In practice, the students often get impatient ... it's tricky, but if you do this ten minutes a day for a year it really builds up and you get better at the process of doing it. (I still work on this myself with new stuff - I have to).
I'm actually just putting the finishing touches on a video that discusses this - although I don't talk too much about the chord/scale implications just how to get the hip sounds without fussing around. (But there's seemingly infinite things you can do with just triads.)Whichever way you do it, the goal is to be able to hear the sounds and have your fingers find the notes without much thought.
I think that it may work best to just try to master one sound at a time. So, tonic minor, 7#11 and alt might be the first three to work on.
The thing is you can be conversant with all the chord scale theory in the world and know all the names of everything, but if you haven't practiced these options until they are in your ears and fingers, they won't come out. TBH a lot of adult students are like that.
OTOH you can also not know chord scale theory from a hole in the ground, and play all of those hip sounds just by using internalised sub rules, like they did back in the 30s, 40s and 50s - and I know people who learned like that even today.
So, I'd recommend absolutely mastering one simple device at a time. You can do a lot with just the tritone triad, the lydian triad, or whatever.
All of that said - it is the case that if you want to play like Robben, you are dealing with someone who knows his chord scales are, so it's a different concept. In fact, the first time I became aware of chord scales was in a Robben Ford instructional video many decades ago. I think he does think in those terms.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-10-2025 at 06:07 PM.
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That's the issue. To break it down a little too far ... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The next chord in the song you're playing is, say, G7. How do you cover it?
1. You scat sing something mentally and you try to play that.
2a. You think of the chord you'd like to substitute for G7. Could be 7#11, or alt, or tritone, whatever. And then you think about how to play on that chord.
2b. Say you're going for G7#11. Do you think Cmajor, but raise the C? Glyddominant? Dmelmin?
2c. Some of these choices require reframing on the fly. "Oh, it's going to be G7. The iim that goes with G7 is Dm, so Dmelmin will work. Where am I on the fingerboard? Do I know a Dmelmin pattern nearby? How am I going to find those notes?
3. If you got past 2c, can you do it in 12 keys and the common enharmonic variants? That is, can you think fast enough?
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Gosh. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Well, while I might think about and practice all of these things and more in the practice room, when. It comes to actually playing, I can definitely say none of the above, because if any of that stuff is going through my head, I’m in trouble!
Internalising means everything is in a flow state (ideally). Things have to be part of you at the note level. It’s not fully conscious and certainly not something I can verbalise. It’s the same as playing a piece of composed music - if you have to think about what notes you are going to play, it is going to go wrong. (I always underestimate how much this takes to get to.)
Things like knowing how everything links up on the fretboard is absolutely part of that. I can’t be thinking about where the notes are on the instrument anymore than I can be stressing about what notes to play.
I’ve learned this the hard way by crashing and burning on the bandstand. And no, it’s not always there on the level I would want. Neither is it possible to prepare yourself for everything - although the more you play the more situations you’ll be prepared for.
But I know when it’s right.
You can think and make decisions on a higher level, I might think - oh I’ll go into a tritone thing here, maybe use this sort of a thing here - and you can say no to things. You need to do that a bit when soloing
through an unfamiliar chart, of course. But the actually basic level stuff really needs to be fully unconscious.
Because if you start thinking at that kind of note level, well, if nothing else it mucks up your time, you lag the best or rush.
The feeling should be of relaxed concentration and things should flow.
Time on the instrument.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It’s like if I have to demonstrate a concept I don’t normally use for a video, even if I can play the notes right away I really have to practice it. Mostly it comes up in my time feel. Anything where I’m thinking it messes up my pocket.
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Same here. If I have to think, or if I can't execute the idea easily enough, the first thing to go is time feel. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But, with thinking about theory to pick notes -- I try to avoid it. But, too often, I'll get bored with what I'm playing and some gremlin in my mind will suggest a scale or arp-substitution or some other theoretical device. Rarely, it works. Much more commonly, that's where the solo goes south.
The solution is to get so familiar with the harmony that I can feel it (for want of a better descriptor) and then my fingers find the melody I'm scatting mentally. The result is that my harmonic conception comes out more vanilla than I'd like, but it's the best I can do with that. Getting new sounds into my mental reservoir is a laborious process at best.
For finding new sounds, there's no one way it happens. But, a good one is when I can elaborate on the harmony in chord melody or comping and then solo on that.
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The C#/D in the scale is what gives it its characteristic sound, without the D, it becomes a G7b5 - a different sound and application. Plus the natural 5th (D) is the b5 of the Abm7b5 and the b9th of Db7, its relative V7 (the b5 substitutes). If you're going to be that choosy about the notes you play, there's no point in thinking in terms of scales at all, better to think in terms of chord tones - chords over chords. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Well, quite. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Tbh I kind of think this is all not worth worrying about. If you play the #11 on a dom7 chord it’s going to sound like a 7#11. Who cares about the scale? Even if you include the 5th it’s ambiguous if it’s Lydian dominant or dominant/diminshed and you hear both in the wild.
For functional type changes the ear will tend to gravitate to the most diatonic options a lot of the time. So in this situation hearing the G# on the D7 in A train is intriguing and different. When Billy Strayhorn did it was a new sound for the II chord. Is it Lydian dominant or whole tone? The answer is yes.
The best and most worked out system for hearing and thinking about upper structures I’ve come across is Stefon Harris’s in which the upper structures become the consonant notes and the base chord tones often become dissonant. So if I put an E triad on a D7 chord, the note A (5) actually sounds dissonant. It’s the G# (#4) that will sound consonant - if the ear is conditioned into hearing the upper structure.
It’s crazy sounding but it actually works this way. Try it - it’s nuts.
Anyway I think the OP is probably thinking more in terms of stuff to play on vamps etc.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-11-2025 at 05:45 AM.
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Yeah, I hate how correct this system ends up being Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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The John Stowell book does a really good job of covering different ways to incorporate MM sounds into your playing https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/joh...ell/1008452197
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Better link, inlcudes online video instead of DVD - https://www.melbay.com/Products/2077...r-mastery.aspx
Here is the TOC:
Pentatonics and Arpeggios
Substitution Using Triads
Picking
Pick and Fingers Technique
John Stowell - Jazz Mastery Volume II
C7 + C# Melodic Minor
One Whole Tone Below
C7 - F Melodic Minor a 4th Above > b6 added
C7 - G Melodic Minor a 5th Above > 9 #11 added
John Stowell - Jazz Mastery Volume III
Using Major Triads to Extend Dominant 7th Chord
Dominant 7th chords
Major 7th Chords
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